Topic: The most intelligent nonhuman species...  (Read 17035 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JMM

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2003, 11:09:21 am »
I'll also vote for my soon to be ex, only a naca drives a car into high water thus sucking up water into the intake and trashing the engine... Silly rabbit, water does NOT compress... Let the wench try that with the 03 Camry instead of the 92, bet she'll learn one day...  

Tremok

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2003, 12:11:20 pm »
 I've seen some dogs that are smarter than some humans.    

RogueJedi_XC

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2003, 12:32:47 pm »
Quote:

 I've seen some dogs that are smarter than some humans.    




Ah, I see you've been driving in Austin lately.    

Skawpya

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2003, 02:09:49 pm »
I would agree on the crows,  they are able to remember who drops stuff and who doesn't. they never end up as roadkill like seagulls, Then again they dont seem to be not able to remember who is not a threat, and more than once, when approaching one on a bike, it would fly away in the direction I'm going, land, see me still coming and then take off again, this happened for almost two blocks.

dab_leader

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2003, 02:26:32 pm »
My nominations:

Most intelligent non-humans:
Chimpanzees

Most intelligent non-primate mamals:
Elephants

Most intelligent non-mammalian vertebrates:
Parrots, Crows

Most intelligent invertebrates:
Octopus

 I used to be an atheist, till I discovered I was God  
 

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2003, 06:35:30 pm »
As promised; Crows because they can be taught to speak (or at least members of thier family can, and they can use tools as recently proven. Dolphins due to thier complex language, behaviors and large brain size and complex brain structure. It remains to be seen if they can be considered truly intelligent in a sentient sort of way because their environment is so alien that we might not be able to recognize thier actual level. they have no hands or need for tools or technology. Now the octopi; they can control the "color of individual irridiphores and pigment cells by the millions or billions. They communicate with complex light pattern languages. They can recognize different animals and know those animals enemies and some can mimick those enemies in an uncanny way. They can open jars to get at food inside. They can escape from the tightest secured tanks, travel to another tank across the room, have a snack and sneak back into thier old tank to appear innocent of mischief. They are very clever creatures. Especially since they are so short lived. If they lived much longer I'd be really frightened of how smart they could become. Octopi are awesome.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2003, 06:37:48 pm by Stormbringer1701 »

Puddleoguts

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2003, 08:45:44 pm »
My birds use language in ways that occaisionally surprise me.  They are normally able to respond to certain situations in appropriate ways....saying "Goodnight" when I turn out the lights or yelling at the kids when they're too noisy.  Back in the day when we just had one pet she seemed able to apply language to novel situations in appropriate ways...though I can't remember a specific example.  It always happened at times and in ways that left me wondering if I had heard what I thought I had.  Our oldest used to get put in "timeout" by the bird.  She would hear her name and "timeout" and did what she was told.  She was very young.


I've always wanted to keep a crow or an octopus.



For my vote I'm inclined to nominate my goats.  They're not very bright but have an uncanny ability to be where I don't want them to be.  They are virtually imposible to work around and if you're not very careful they'll figure out what is most vulnerable and destroy... destroy .....DESTROY.  





 

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2003, 09:58:25 pm »
My family had a goat when I was still in school. We thought it was neat when she would jump into our laps when she was a kid.  But they grow up and she would still jump up into your lap when she wieghed in as a fully grown goat. Hooves hurt. A lot. Couldn't sit down outside for fear of getting racked by a goat. And they'll eat any plant in range as long is it is not an unwanted weed.  

Taldren_Erin

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2003, 12:31:24 am »
Interesting conversation, I'm currently about 3/4 of the way through _The Alex Studies_ by Irene Pepperberg. Much information and research she did points toward Grey intelligence rivaling, if not exceeding, that of chimpanzees and dolphins, though a lot of it has to do with ease of communication. Very fascinating reading. I'm hoping to get a Grey next Spring. Corvids come close but don't measure up in the research... not to say they're less intelligent, just that parrots are more amicable, it seems, to testing. No question that crows and ravens are strikingly intelligent.

Puddle, what kind of birds do you have?  

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2003, 12:41:03 am »
I'll admit parrots appear more intelligent due to communication ease but crows make and use tools.

Taldren_Erin

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2003, 12:52:42 am »
They do, and as I said, I wasn't discounting their intelligence -- but parrots (not just Greys, but especially them) also make and use tools extensively. The one thing that would lead me to believe that Greys are more intelligent than crows has to do with their society -- it's quite intricate and involved. It could be that I'm confusing lack of knowledge for lack of complexity with regard to crow society, but from what I know of them they're more ordinary with regard to flock behavior. Parrot communication is not just easier for humans to access, it's also much more elaborate than crow vocal communication. There are studies about crows and ample evidence that they can count (they use the number of caws in a sequence to identify each other in a large group), which is a higher level cognitive function, but just as a personal guess I would say that between a crow and a grey parrot, the parrot would have a higher IQ.  

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2003, 01:01:47 am »
I have not studied them extensively just seen a documentary. I have seen similar documentaries that claimed that parrot lanuage is more than mere mimickry which agrees with what puddle said. as to tool use I was unaware parrots used tools other thamn perhaps rock hammers. crows select and modify twigs to fit tasks. They also use the common rock hammer tool. They probably use the drop/plummet tool as well but I cannot recall seeing this documented. Thanks for adding on topic material to this thread. That makes three out of about ten.  

JMM

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2003, 01:15:52 am »
I take it by the term Grey we are talking about African Grey parrots? My grandparents had one, and even though that S.O.B. always tried to bite me, he could really talk, a highly intelligent bird. I wish he was alive along with my grandfather, I would go tell that bird a thing or two nowadays...  

Taldren_Erin

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2003, 01:54:20 am »
Just cruising around looking for links here... this is a pretty cool story about crows. I did know about the twig stuff, but this was in a study, where a crow unexpectedly grabbed a wire, flew off with it, and used it to make a hook and get the food they had put in a bottle:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2178920.stm

The tool story I remember most was of a crow using passing cars as a tool to open nuts. It would sit on the side of a highway, watch the cars go by, then get a nut, put it in the path of the tire tracks, and wait. A few cars would come by, eventually crushing the nut. Crow hops down and eats it, then goes to find another nut and repeats the process. They're definitely very, very smart.

Right at the moment I can't find any online resources for parrot tool use, but more than other birds, even, parrots are very tactile with their feet and use them almost like hands. Alex, the famous CAG (Congo African Grey), learned to request objects, and one of the objects he requested frequently, rather than being food, was a metal key, so that he could use it to scratch under his beak. Their tool use is broad, and I'll have to look further to find more instances of it... at the moment I'm about to go to bed. =)

One anecdote from Bird Talk that I remember, though, shows contextual intelligence and problem solving (and is just really funny). The Grey in question had been told many times when being offered an object "Use your claw" -- assumedly the bird would grab first with its beak, and the owners wanted to teach it to accept things with its claw instead. The family had a football party and were watching the game on the big screen -- eating, talking, not paying attention to the bird. The guy on the screen fumbles the ball, and the bird pipes up: "Use your claw!"

In another instance, a family was selling their couch, and the buyers came over to pick it up. Their Grey flew over, landed on the couch, and announced "I pooped here!" Sure enough, he had, and the sellers hadn't noticed. Oops. The bird had not been known to do that kind of thing on other occasions. The somewhat scary thing about these birds is that they can hear something once in context and apply it months or even years later, unexpectedly.

Their behavior is incredibly fascinating. In some ways it's very intimidating to be pursuing the prospect of owning one. (And a bird like that more owns you than you it...) But I would very highly recommend Irene Pepperberg's book. Very little of it is the clever anecdotes, but there's an extremely thorough documentation of her research process, and of Alex's behavior throughout. He surprised them a number of times, and it's nothing short of staggering what they're teaching him to do. They're hoping that eventually they will teach him to read. Pepperberg's work has been used, in addition to the animal behavior field and the whole of our perception of animal cognition, to help children with communication disabilities, since she's tracked down much of the way that Alex learns and some of it has a direct analog to developmental speech in humans.

The next book I'm going to track down in the animal behavior category is, I think, _Next of Kin_, by Roger Fouts. It might be another one, I have the exact book info written down on my laptop... in any case one of the more highly praised books about chimpanzee intelligence.  

Puddleoguts

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2003, 07:27:44 am »
Quote:

Interesting conversation, I'm currently about 3/4 of the way through _The Alex Studies_ by Irene Pepperberg. Much information and research she did points toward Grey intelligence rivaling, if not exceeding, that of chimpanzees and dolphins, though a lot of it has to do with ease of communication. Very fascinating reading. I'm hoping to get a Grey next Spring. Corvids come close but don't measure up in the research... not to say they're less intelligent, just that parrots are more amicable, it seems, to testing. No question that crows and ravens are strikingly intelligent.

Puddle, what kind of birds do you have?  




White bellied caiques, pacific parrotlets, and three greys.

We hand raised our first grey.  She eventually hit sexual maturity and became unpleasant.  A friend of ours gave us a wild caught male(still very wild) and they hit it off.  The third bird is the offspring of the first two and a great bird....far nicer than her mother ever was.



 

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2003, 12:56:42 pm »
The white mice have dissappeared. So have the Dolphins. The computer has been upgraded and reset.

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2003, 12:58:31 pm »
Elephants are indeed intelligent, good memories and communicate with infrasound for perhaps 50 miles or more in range.

Dracho

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2003, 12:25:18 am »
Dogs.. they trained a species to bring them food, chauffer them around,  and make little sweaters for them to keep them from being cold.

Seriously, raw intelligence, probably not, but some research seems to indicate dogs experience emotions closer to humans than any other animal, and they are better at picking up on our emotions than any other species.  A recent research project tested this theory with wolves and coyotes, and other species, against dogs (determining what a human wanted with minimal input).  Dogs won it paws down..

Animal Emotions


Pet owners have long believed their companions loved them back. Scientists once scoffed, but now they're coming around

© 2003 Newsweek, Inc. By Mary Carmichael with Jamie Reno and Hilary Shenfeld (July 21)

Everyone who's ever owned a pet has at least one story (usually many, actually) of an animal that seems just as emotional as any human.

TAKE RUTH OSMENT, who says her two cats, Penny and Jo, feel sorry for her when she cries-running to her and drying her tears with their fur. Or Donna Westlund, whose roommate's parrot Koko shows all the classic signs of a teenage crush, calling out "Hey, come here," whenever she tries to leave the room.

Then there's John Van Zante. Recently, he watched Max, a Labrador retriever mix, sit lovingly by a woman in a wheelchair in a convalescent home while she patted his head for several minutes. It wasn't until the elderly woman wheeled off down the hall that Van Zante realized she had been parked on Max's tail the entire time. Max hadn't complained at all. "He was in pain, clearly, but he seemed to know that she had special needs, so he just sat through it," says Van Zante, communications director for the Helen Woodward Animal Center in Rancho Santa Fe, Calif.


NO EMOTIONS?
Van Zante doesn't understand why some scientists argue that animals have no emotions, that they merely respond to incentives like so many automatons. "If we were purely a source for food, I'm certain that Max's reaction would have been different," he says. "Haven't these scientists noticed that their cats can't wait to rub up against their legs and reclaim ownership of their people after a day at work? Don't they take the time to greet their tail-wagging dogs when they get home?"

Well, yes. But they're not as starry-eyed about what they see. For decades, psychologists have discounted the idea that pets can love their humans back. They have argued that animals that appear to express emotions are merely reacting to hormonal rushes triggered-in cold, but typical, technical language-by "outside stimuli." But that view is changing, thanks to a loosely knit band of researchers working in fields as far-flung as neurobiology and behavioral observation. With new evidence gleaned from studies of dogs, chimps and sundry other creatures, science is starting to catch up to what pet owners have always suspected: animals experience surges of deep-seated fear, jealousy and grief-and, most important, love. Unlike the few researchers who came before them, the scientists leading the new movement actually have solid evidence. "Five years ago my colleagues would have thought I was off my rocker," says biologist Marc Bekoff. "But now scientists are finally starting to talk about animal emotions in public. It's like they're coming out of the closet."

And at an apt time, too-more and more pet owners now depend on their furry and feathered friends for emotional support. "People are delaying having children, but they still need that connection, that love," says Tamar Geller, owner of The Loved Dog Co. in Los Angeles. For many in that crowd, she says, pets are serving as surrogate kids. That may explain the sudden surge in interest; the push to find out what pets and other animals are thinking is being driven largely by those who love them. After all, if you're going to devote years of affection to an animal, isn't it nice to think it's not unrequited?


LEARNING FROM RUSTY
Aside from Charles Darwin, most students of animal behavior in the past believed that animals didn't have emotions-or that if they did, we'd never know. Over the years, the belief hardened into dogma. Then, in the mid-'60s, came Jane Goodall. Since she had little scientific training, she had never been indoctrinated with behaviorist theory. "But I'd had this amazing teacher my whole life," she says. That would be Rusty, a little black mongrel who lived at a hotel in her childhood neighborhood. "He went everywhere with me, and he didn't even belong to me," she says. "At the hotel he was disobedient, but he was beautifully behaved and sensitive with me. Of course, I thought animals had emotions, personalities, minds. How could I not?" Goodall unknowingly rebelled against standard scientific practices in the wilds of Africa, giving her chimps names instead of impersonal numbers and describing their behavior with words like "joy," "depression" and "grief." The dons at Cambridge University rolled their eyes, but her studies were ultimately irrefutable. They might never have happened, Goodall notes, if she hadn't preferred Rusty to "the scientific treadmill."

Today, thanks to those studies, the treadmill is a rather different exercise. Researchers carrying on Goodall's legacy are finding that it extends far beyond chimps, to dogs, cats, birds, rats and even animals as "simple" as the lowly octopus. All of them experience fear-the most ancient of the emotions, mediated by the amygdala, an almond-shaped organ in the brain. Many animals may feel something akin to love as well. Chimpanzees sometimes adopt baby chimps unrelated to them; horses have been known to form bonds so intense they refuse to spend the night in different stalls; whales have been spotted (albeit rarely) performing a peculiar dance that may be the equivalent of a human's postcoital cuddling.

 Not surprisingly, the animal that has shown researchers the most emotional complexity thus far is the dog. Bred as human companions for thousands of years, dogs have evolved into master communicators. Recent studies show they are even better than chimpanzees at reading human emotional cues, a trait that undoubtedly helped them in the quest for food and shelter in the caves of early man. They may be equally adept at expressing their own feelings and personalities. Samuel Gosling, a biologist at the University of Texas at Austin, says people can reliably "type" four dimensions of canine personality: sociability, affection, emotional stability and "competence," which combines obedience and intelligence. They're remarkably similar to the four basic categories of human personality found in standard psychological tests.
   

thefish

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2003, 01:38:46 am »
i'm going with the octopus and squid:)

Towelie

  • Guest
Re: The most intelligent nonhuman species...
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2003, 02:02:57 am »
Quote:

 I've seen some dogs that are smarter than some humans.    




  I've seen ameba smarter than sub-human crackheads and Turban Menaces.