Topic: Not cool, not refreshing; Kieko is dead. (Read 9317 times)

Stormbringer · « **on:** December 13, 2003, 05:09:37 am »

Kieko; the 27 year old orca, star of free willie, and recent resident of a fjord in Norway has died of pneumonia. The whale spent much of his life in captivity gained attention as the bent finned sad star of free willie. A movement to free him into the wild when it was revealed what condition he was kept in in a mexican aquarium succeeded in getting him released to a "halfway house" in Norway. He was having difficulty learning how to feed and bond with wild whale pods. It was unlikely he would ever make it in the wild and this has sadly been confirmed by his demise. Perhaps it is best if the well meaning animal advocates take this lesson to heart; sometimes the best thing for an animal, certainly one that has come to depend on humans, if it is left in thier care.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:29:28 am »

Kieko was here in Oregon for some time at the aquarium, when the movement to release him hit full steam. They hypocrisy amazes me with these people, they were clearly out to make themselves feel good, with the leaders of the movement setting themselves up to feel important, because the rest of the animals remain at the aquarium, with not a peep from the people who were so outraged at Keiko being kept there. I would hate to see an animal die like that, but animals do die every day. This one would probably be alive today if he had not been pushed out and away from what he had known as home. Yet, I know that most will not learn from this. The next celebrity animal or captive animal cause that comes along and it will all start up again. A bunch of folks supporting something they know nothing about because it feels good at the moment, so they can all go back to their lives afterwords and just forget about it and not thing about the hypocrisy of doing this and not continuing the fight for every animal in such places to be set free. Or perhaps the others were not worthy of being set free, perhaps they are evil, or lesser being?

I personally don't mind such places as long as the animals are treated with respect and cared for appropriately.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:42:22 am »

At least he died free

Stormbringer · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:46:27 am »

I agree, on all counts.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:49:38 am »

He died forthat freedom. And to my thinking he did not comprehend nor want freedom. He kept returning to his human masters. He would not associate with the pods that were in the area and to which he was blood relative.
Pushing freedom on him in this case killed him. His original aquarium home was pathetic but there were others that would have taken him in where he could have regained his health and to be truthful, been more happy. And that is what counts.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:56:53 am »

I think keeping animals in cages is cruel for the purpose of human entertainment, especially for primates or whales and dolphins.
Safari parks are a better idea but nothing beats seeing a creature in the wild.
I'm sure Kieko loved his freedom but he obviously missed human company because that is what he was used to, though he still kept returning back to the sea.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:03:59 am »

I'm saying that in the net sense, all things considered, the best that could have been done for Keiko would have been for him to live out the rest of his life in a large aquarium. He was totally incapable of living in the wild at that stage in his life after living in acontrolled environment for so long.

We've learned far more by having the whales up close than we could have ever learned in the wild and as a result of that knowledge (things like vetrinarian medicine, intelligence, minor behavioral traits) we may be able to save thier species in the wild.The entertainment aquariums pay for the research with thier revenues gained from those entertained. Whether capturing the animals is reprehensible or not is another topic and is immenantly debatable. In Keiko's case the drive to repatriate him to the wild was misguided at best.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:13:33 am »

Not to mention that zoos and aquariums generate interest in, compassion for, and knowledge of animals that the general public would otherwise not even think about, care for, or even in some case know existed. Would the animal rights type people even know about the object of thier cause if not for the public displays? Not many would, I'd wager. So in a way it is disengenious for them to hold such a negative view of them.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:26:21 am »

Quote:

Not to mention that zoos and aquariums generate interest in, compassion for, and knowledge of animals that the general public would otherwise not even think about, care for, or even in some case know existed. Would the animal rights type people even know about the object of thier cause if not for the public displays? Not many would, I'd wager. So in a way it is disengenious for them to hold such a negative view of them.

I totally disagree with this, people are aware of nature at a young age , nature is all around us.My children have learnt more about nature from personal experience or T.V. then any zoo could teach them.Seeing an animal in a cage teaches us nothing about the creature, it might as well be stuffed in some museum somewhere, it is not in its natural enviroment.

The zoo or aquarium are outdated 19th century ideas and I feel have no purpose in the present day.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:56:31 am »

Nothing brings home the reality of a thing more than having that thing be physically present and knowing it is aware of you, too. TV pales in comparison to petting a llama on the nose, or a dolphin deliberately spraying you or holding a snake and having them squeeze your hand. Zoos are still important. 19th century style zoos are quite rare these days. Most are designed in a far more enlightened way.

JMM · « **Reply #12 on:** December 13, 2003, 11:25:25 am »

I used to have a great joke on "free Willy" but I don't think I could get away with it here, PM me if you want to hear it...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:39:39 pm »

If it involves President Clinton, I've probably heard it and you are probably right about it not making it in this place.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:41:47 pm »

Perhaps, but how many bario, ghetto or otherwise disadvantaged kids or adults forthat matter get to go on an eco-cruise?

JMM · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:46:28 pm »

I used to walk around in my scrubs in the E.R. at DeWitt, and ask my soldiers if they had seen "free willy?" When they replied no, I told them to pull down my pants and they could see a free willy! LMAO... We had some great times in the military...

I hope this isn't too racy, I was just being honest...

BTW Storm, you being active duty and all, I only said that to my trusted soldiers who told me jokes in kind. It makes a great civilian joke as well, try it on a chick if you are single...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #16 on:** December 13, 2003, 04:25:54 pm »

I think I shall have to wait until I'm out before I use that. EO and all you know...

JMM · « **Reply #17 on:** December 13, 2003, 08:58:48 pm »

I hear ya, I only told it to the most trusted of soldiers, and they are human too, we get a fine arsed female patient and they all rush to her aid, man I have some good stories and fond memories...

762 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 15, 2003, 09:24:44 am »

Did anybody else think he was talking about O'Brian's annoying wife?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:09:37 am »

Kieko; the 27 year old orca, star of free willie, and recent resident of a fjord in Norway has died of pneumonia. The whale spent much of his life in captivity gained attention as the bent finned sad star of free willie. A movement to free him into the wild when it was revealed what condition he was kept in in a mexican aquarium succeeded in getting him released to a "halfway house" in Norway. He was having difficulty learning how to feed and bond with wild whale pods. It was unlikely he would ever make it in the wild and this has sadly been confirmed by his demise. Perhaps it is best if the well meaning animal advocates take this lesson to heart; sometimes the best thing for an animal, certainly one that has come to depend on humans, if it is left in thier care.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #20 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:29:28 am »

Kieko was here in Oregon for some time at the aquarium, when the movement to release him hit full steam. They hypocrisy amazes me with these people, they were clearly out to make themselves feel good, with the leaders of the movement setting themselves up to feel important, because the rest of the animals remain at the aquarium, with not a peep from the people who were so outraged at Keiko being kept there. I would hate to see an animal die like that, but animals do die every day. This one would probably be alive today if he had not been pushed out and away from what he had known as home. Yet, I know that most will not learn from this. The next celebrity animal or captive animal cause that comes along and it will all start up again. A bunch of folks supporting something they know nothing about because it feels good at the moment, so they can all go back to their lives afterwords and just forget about it and not thing about the hypocrisy of doing this and not continuing the fight for every animal in such places to be set free. Or perhaps the others were not worthy of being set free, perhaps they are evil, or lesser being?

I personally don't mind such places as long as the animals are treated with respect and cared for appropriately.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #21 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:42:22 am »

At least he died free

Stormbringer · « **Reply #22 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:46:27 am »

I agree, on all counts.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #23 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:49:38 am »

He died forthat freedom. And to my thinking he did not comprehend nor want freedom. He kept returning to his human masters. He would not associate with the pods that were in the area and to which he was blood relative.
Pushing freedom on him in this case killed him. His original aquarium home was pathetic but there were others that would have taken him in where he could have regained his health and to be truthful, been more happy. And that is what counts.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #24 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:56:53 am »

I think keeping animals in cages is cruel for the purpose of human entertainment, especially for primates or whales and dolphins.
Safari parks are a better idea but nothing beats seeing a creature in the wild.
I'm sure Kieko loved his freedom but he obviously missed human company because that is what he was used to, though he still kept returning back to the sea.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #25 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:03:59 am »

I'm saying that in the net sense, all things considered, the best that could have been done for Keiko would have been for him to live out the rest of his life in a large aquarium. He was totally incapable of living in the wild at that stage in his life after living in acontrolled environment for so long.

We've learned far more by having the whales up close than we could have ever learned in the wild and as a result of that knowledge (things like vetrinarian medicine, intelligence, minor behavioral traits) we may be able to save thier species in the wild.The entertainment aquariums pay for the research with thier revenues gained from those entertained. Whether capturing the animals is reprehensible or not is another topic and is immenantly debatable. In Keiko's case the drive to repatriate him to the wild was misguided at best.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #26 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:13:33 am »

Not to mention that zoos and aquariums generate interest in, compassion for, and knowledge of animals that the general public would otherwise not even think about, care for, or even in some case know existed. Would the animal rights type people even know about the object of thier cause if not for the public displays? Not many would, I'd wager. So in a way it is disengenious for them to hold such a negative view of them.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #28 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:56:31 am »

Nothing brings home the reality of a thing more than having that thing be physically present and knowing it is aware of you, too. TV pales in comparison to petting a llama on the nose, or a dolphin deliberately spraying you or holding a snake and having them squeeze your hand. Zoos are still important. 19th century style zoos are quite rare these days. Most are designed in a far more enlightened way.

JMM · « **Reply #31 on:** December 13, 2003, 11:25:25 am »

I used to have a great joke on "free Willy" but I don't think I could get away with it here, PM me if you want to hear it...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #32 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:39:39 pm »

If it involves President Clinton, I've probably heard it and you are probably right about it not making it in this place.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #33 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:41:47 pm »

Perhaps, but how many bario, ghetto or otherwise disadvantaged kids or adults forthat matter get to go on an eco-cruise?

JMM · « **Reply #34 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:46:28 pm »

I used to walk around in my scrubs in the E.R. at DeWitt, and ask my soldiers if they had seen "free willy?" When they replied no, I told them to pull down my pants and they could see a free willy! LMAO... We had some great times in the military...

I hope this isn't too racy, I was just being honest...

BTW Storm, you being active duty and all, I only said that to my trusted soldiers who told me jokes in kind. It makes a great civilian joke as well, try it on a chick if you are single...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #35 on:** December 13, 2003, 04:25:54 pm »

I think I shall have to wait until I'm out before I use that. EO and all you know...

JMM · « **Reply #36 on:** December 13, 2003, 08:58:48 pm »

I hear ya, I only told it to the most trusted of soldiers, and they are human too, we get a fine arsed female patient and they all rush to her aid, man I have some good stories and fond memories...

762 · « **Reply #37 on:** December 15, 2003, 09:24:44 am »

Did anybody else think he was talking about O'Brian's annoying wife?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #38 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:09:37 am »

Kieko; the 27 year old orca, star of free willie, and recent resident of a fjord in Norway has died of pneumonia. The whale spent much of his life in captivity gained attention as the bent finned sad star of free willie. A movement to free him into the wild when it was revealed what condition he was kept in in a mexican aquarium succeeded in getting him released to a "halfway house" in Norway. He was having difficulty learning how to feed and bond with wild whale pods. It was unlikely he would ever make it in the wild and this has sadly been confirmed by his demise. Perhaps it is best if the well meaning animal advocates take this lesson to heart; sometimes the best thing for an animal, certainly one that has come to depend on humans, if it is left in thier care.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #39 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:29:28 am »

Kieko was here in Oregon for some time at the aquarium, when the movement to release him hit full steam. They hypocrisy amazes me with these people, they were clearly out to make themselves feel good, with the leaders of the movement setting themselves up to feel important, because the rest of the animals remain at the aquarium, with not a peep from the people who were so outraged at Keiko being kept there. I would hate to see an animal die like that, but animals do die every day. This one would probably be alive today if he had not been pushed out and away from what he had known as home. Yet, I know that most will not learn from this. The next celebrity animal or captive animal cause that comes along and it will all start up again. A bunch of folks supporting something they know nothing about because it feels good at the moment, so they can all go back to their lives afterwords and just forget about it and not thing about the hypocrisy of doing this and not continuing the fight for every animal in such places to be set free. Or perhaps the others were not worthy of being set free, perhaps they are evil, or lesser being?

I personally don't mind such places as long as the animals are treated with respect and cared for appropriately.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #40 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:42:22 am »

At least he died free

Stormbringer · « **Reply #41 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:46:27 am »

I agree, on all counts.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #42 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:49:38 am »

He died forthat freedom. And to my thinking he did not comprehend nor want freedom. He kept returning to his human masters. He would not associate with the pods that were in the area and to which he was blood relative.
Pushing freedom on him in this case killed him. His original aquarium home was pathetic but there were others that would have taken him in where he could have regained his health and to be truthful, been more happy. And that is what counts.

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #43 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:56:53 am »

I think keeping animals in cages is cruel for the purpose of human entertainment, especially for primates or whales and dolphins.
Safari parks are a better idea but nothing beats seeing a creature in the wild.
I'm sure Kieko loved his freedom but he obviously missed human company because that is what he was used to, though he still kept returning back to the sea.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #44 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:03:59 am »

I'm saying that in the net sense, all things considered, the best that could have been done for Keiko would have been for him to live out the rest of his life in a large aquarium. He was totally incapable of living in the wild at that stage in his life after living in acontrolled environment for so long.

We've learned far more by having the whales up close than we could have ever learned in the wild and as a result of that knowledge (things like vetrinarian medicine, intelligence, minor behavioral traits) we may be able to save thier species in the wild.The entertainment aquariums pay for the research with thier revenues gained from those entertained. Whether capturing the animals is reprehensible or not is another topic and is immenantly debatable. In Keiko's case the drive to repatriate him to the wild was misguided at best.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #45 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:13:33 am »

Not to mention that zoos and aquariums generate interest in, compassion for, and knowledge of animals that the general public would otherwise not even think about, care for, or even in some case know existed. Would the animal rights type people even know about the object of thier cause if not for the public displays? Not many would, I'd wager. So in a way it is disengenious for them to hold such a negative view of them.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #47 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:56:31 am »

Nothing brings home the reality of a thing more than having that thing be physically present and knowing it is aware of you, too. TV pales in comparison to petting a llama on the nose, or a dolphin deliberately spraying you or holding a snake and having them squeeze your hand. Zoos are still important. 19th century style zoos are quite rare these days. Most are designed in a far more enlightened way.

JMM · « **Reply #50 on:** December 13, 2003, 11:25:25 am »

I used to have a great joke on "free Willy" but I don't think I could get away with it here, PM me if you want to hear it...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #51 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:39:39 pm »

If it involves President Clinton, I've probably heard it and you are probably right about it not making it in this place.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #52 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:41:47 pm »

Perhaps, but how many bario, ghetto or otherwise disadvantaged kids or adults forthat matter get to go on an eco-cruise?

JMM · « **Reply #53 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:46:28 pm »

I used to walk around in my scrubs in the E.R. at DeWitt, and ask my soldiers if they had seen "free willy?" When they replied no, I told them to pull down my pants and they could see a free willy! LMAO... We had some great times in the military...

I hope this isn't too racy, I was just being honest...

BTW Storm, you being active duty and all, I only said that to my trusted soldiers who told me jokes in kind. It makes a great civilian joke as well, try it on a chick if you are single...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #54 on:** December 13, 2003, 04:25:54 pm »

I think I shall have to wait until I'm out before I use that. EO and all you know...

JMM · « **Reply #55 on:** December 13, 2003, 08:58:48 pm »

I hear ya, I only told it to the most trusted of soldiers, and they are human too, we get a fine arsed female patient and they all rush to her aid, man I have some good stories and fond memories...

762 · « **Reply #56 on:** December 15, 2003, 09:24:44 am »

Did anybody else think he was talking about O'Brian's annoying wife?

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Topic: Not cool, not refreshing; Kieko is dead. (Read 9317 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Stormbringer

EmeraldEdge

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

hobbesmaster

Yabrodan

JMM

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

JMM

Stormbringer

JMM

762

Stormbringer

EmeraldEdge

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

hobbesmaster

Yabrodan

JMM

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

JMM

Stormbringer

JMM

762

Stormbringer

EmeraldEdge

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

TheBigCheese

Stormbringer

hobbesmaster

Yabrodan

JMM

Stormbringer

Stormbringer

JMM

Stormbringer

JMM

762

Topic: Not cool, not refreshing; Kieko is dead. (Read 9317 times)