Topic: Rick Berman...Trek's biggest hinderance (Read 6200 times)

Rat_Boy · « **on:** December 06, 2003, 09:10:09 pm »

From IGN Filmforce's interview with Ron D. Moore

Quote:

IGNFF: Was there anything you can recall where the battle was fierce in taking it to Rick?

MOORE: I remember when we got into the Dominion War, Rick was adamant at first that the war would only take 3 or 4 episodes at the most, and we just said, "Sure!" We lied. We said, "Oh yeah! Okay! No problem!" And we just knew that once we got the ball rolling that we'd never wrap it up in 3 or 4 episodes, so that was just trickery. And then as the war went on, Rick would weigh in periodically about how heroic the characters are and "Why does this one have to be so depressing" and "This one's too violent?." And we're like, "It's a f***in' war! What do you mean it's too violent?" I remember one particularly insane argument that Ira and Rick had when Nog was injured and ended up losing a leg, there was this ridiculous extended argument that I was in a room while Ira was on the phone. We had written the draft where he had lost both his legs, and Rick was just appalled. "We can't lose the character's legs!" And we were like, "No, we've got to. We've got to have somebody who's injured in this war who's not just a guest star in the background." It was a very important point. And the argument got to the point where they were arguing about, "Well, does it have to be one leg or two? And is it above the knee or below the knee?" It was just, like, they were negotiating over where Nog was to lose his leg. It was just absurd.

IGNFF: But the plan, even if he lost both legs, was that he was going to have prosthetics beyond that point?.

MOORE: I know! That's what made it particularly surreal. The whole thing was like ? he wasn't going to be wheeling around in a wheelchair with stumps. The guy was going to have his legs back the next week. But Rick was, like, flipping out about it.

So if Berman had his way, some of the best moments in Star Trek history would never have happened. Figures.

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2003, 04:41:22 pm »

I truly wish I could say I was surprised by anything referenced above. Sadly, I cannot...

It's rather frustrating when you think about how much cooler Trek could be...

Kortez · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2003, 05:00:50 pm »

So do you think "Enterprise" will do a "Dallas" or use the Roms as a segway into a Romulan-Earth war?

Iceman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:07:10 pm »

I hope Paramount pulls the plug, personally. Make way for Excelsior.

Kortez · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:33:15 pm »

LOL!

Iceman · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:53:03 pm »

WHOOSH way over my head. Sorry bro! lol

Primus2003 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:05:53 am »

An intriuging footnote in Star Trek history then and an interesting point. I remember DS9 during the Dominion War, I thought they were great and I was eagerly looked forward to the next ep. The writing was strong, powerful and there was a definite sense of continuity. Though on the flip side of the coin I only have this to say. What would Gene Roddenberry have said? Would he have agreed ? Really not just about the Dominion war, I think he would have seen and agreed with DS9 in that well Star Trek was oriiginally a wagon train to the stars correct? Well this would make DS9 a fort or outpost in said wagontrain. Flip side humanity is not supposed to be engaged in major war but humanity seemed to handle itself pretty well. Lok at William Shatner's Star Trek books, they gave, in my opinion, a far superior role I guess is the best. For still from Generations onward what would Gene have said?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #8 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:29:15 am »

Gene was an idealist and as such his ideology may have been a bit far from mid range. Not an extremist per se, but left of midline in the liberal side of things. (IMHO) He did give us in my opinion the most splendid view of the future and good space opera. But the slide in emphasis after his passing was good for the series in my opinion. And thus though Gene may have disapproved, it preserved some of his premises far longer than the vehicle would have lasted had it remained static in keeping with his vision. The series or series of series would have died much earlier and the bit of gene's dream that remained would have been silenced at least for a time.

Primus2003 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:57:17 am »

Oh I admit that is true. I thoroughly enjoyed what DS9 did and it did help keep interest in the series piqued. I still miss it as much as TNG. Certain slide ins as you call them were necessary. How humanity handled war and the chaos, tradgedy and dubious ethics war brings in the 24th century. Within the Federation itself it is good to see humanity getting along, striving to better itself. During such outside circumstances ie the Dominion War or Voyager lost in the Delta Quadrant, then it is much easier, and more appropriate to bring in such aspect. Still I was focusing more on other aspects, I always had trouble with Generations, it just felt wrong. They would have been better making the series finale for Star Trek: The Next Generations, "All Good Things..." into a movie. While I loved it during my teen years it ended very appropriatly with a real thinking episode that made one have to think outside the box.
Plus there have been a few discontinuities popping up with Enterprise. I do actually like the show but it is still somewhat hard to see with the tech difference btwn it and the original trek, (I can still put that out of my mind but it is when discontinuities pop up that I do not like). Unless somewhat for the upcoming TOS on DVD will massively upgrade the special effects. Just it is hard to back into the past there. TO bad they did not try an Excelsior series or even an Enterprise-B series with Chechov as Captain. Seems that I wonder sometimes about Berman's decisions, I admit at if he did not want the Dominion war, how he ended Kirk's life etc. Though he helped to bring in some good stuff too., he created DS9 and Voyager to begin with. I do wish though he had taken in Shatner's books as canon for example. Plus what was done with the SFC games, surely something could have been done, though I still hope one day for SFC 4. . I guess I am of mixed thoughts here, maybe it is still to early

I still need to see the movie Nemisis, I did not see it in theatre on priniple, along with other movies now I can buy a dvd for the same if not slightly more to enjoy at my lesiure as it costs for my wife and myself to go to the movies. Anyway we will see I hope that he does well and Star Trek continues to "live long and prosper."

Draco · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2003, 06:02:09 pm »

Am I the only one for whom this link does not work?

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2003, 04:41:22 pm »

I truly wish I could say I was surprised by anything referenced above. Sadly, I cannot...

It's rather frustrating when you think about how much cooler Trek could be...

Kortez · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2003, 05:00:50 pm »

So do you think "Enterprise" will do a "Dallas" or use the Roms as a segway into a Romulan-Earth war?

Iceman · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:07:10 pm »

I hope Paramount pulls the plug, personally. Make way for Excelsior.

Kortez · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:33:15 pm »

LOL!

Iceman · « **Reply #18 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:53:03 pm »

WHOOSH way over my head. Sorry bro! lol

Primus2003 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:05:53 am »

An intriuging footnote in Star Trek history then and an interesting point. I remember DS9 during the Dominion War, I thought they were great and I was eagerly looked forward to the next ep. The writing was strong, powerful and there was a definite sense of continuity. Though on the flip side of the coin I only have this to say. What would Gene Roddenberry have said? Would he have agreed ? Really not just about the Dominion war, I think he would have seen and agreed with DS9 in that well Star Trek was oriiginally a wagon train to the stars correct? Well this would make DS9 a fort or outpost in said wagontrain. Flip side humanity is not supposed to be engaged in major war but humanity seemed to handle itself pretty well. Lok at William Shatner's Star Trek books, they gave, in my opinion, a far superior role I guess is the best. For still from Generations onward what would Gene have said?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:29:15 am »

Gene was an idealist and as such his ideology may have been a bit far from mid range. Not an extremist per se, but left of midline in the liberal side of things. (IMHO) He did give us in my opinion the most splendid view of the future and good space opera. But the slide in emphasis after his passing was good for the series in my opinion. And thus though Gene may have disapproved, it preserved some of his premises far longer than the vehicle would have lasted had it remained static in keeping with his vision. The series or series of series would have died much earlier and the bit of gene's dream that remained would have been silenced at least for a time.

Primus2003 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:57:17 am »

Oh I admit that is true. I thoroughly enjoyed what DS9 did and it did help keep interest in the series piqued. I still miss it as much as TNG. Certain slide ins as you call them were necessary. How humanity handled war and the chaos, tradgedy and dubious ethics war brings in the 24th century. Within the Federation itself it is good to see humanity getting along, striving to better itself. During such outside circumstances ie the Dominion War or Voyager lost in the Delta Quadrant, then it is much easier, and more appropriate to bring in such aspect. Still I was focusing more on other aspects, I always had trouble with Generations, it just felt wrong. They would have been better making the series finale for Star Trek: The Next Generations, "All Good Things..." into a movie. While I loved it during my teen years it ended very appropriatly with a real thinking episode that made one have to think outside the box.
Plus there have been a few discontinuities popping up with Enterprise. I do actually like the show but it is still somewhat hard to see with the tech difference btwn it and the original trek, (I can still put that out of my mind but it is when discontinuities pop up that I do not like). Unless somewhat for the upcoming TOS on DVD will massively upgrade the special effects. Just it is hard to back into the past there. TO bad they did not try an Excelsior series or even an Enterprise-B series with Chechov as Captain. Seems that I wonder sometimes about Berman's decisions, I admit at if he did not want the Dominion war, how he ended Kirk's life etc. Though he helped to bring in some good stuff too., he created DS9 and Voyager to begin with. I do wish though he had taken in Shatner's books as canon for example. Plus what was done with the SFC games, surely something could have been done, though I still hope one day for SFC 4. . I guess I am of mixed thoughts here, maybe it is still to early

I still need to see the movie Nemisis, I did not see it in theatre on priniple, along with other movies now I can buy a dvd for the same if not slightly more to enjoy at my lesiure as it costs for my wife and myself to go to the movies. Anyway we will see I hope that he does well and Star Trek continues to "live long and prosper."

Draco · « **Reply #23 on:** December 09, 2003, 06:02:09 pm »

Am I the only one for whom this link does not work?

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #25 on:** December 08, 2003, 04:41:22 pm »

I truly wish I could say I was surprised by anything referenced above. Sadly, I cannot...

It's rather frustrating when you think about how much cooler Trek could be...

Kortez · « **Reply #26 on:** December 08, 2003, 05:00:50 pm »

So do you think "Enterprise" will do a "Dallas" or use the Roms as a segway into a Romulan-Earth war?

Iceman · « **Reply #27 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:07:10 pm »

I hope Paramount pulls the plug, personally. Make way for Excelsior.

Kortez · « **Reply #29 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:33:15 pm »

LOL!

Iceman · « **Reply #30 on:** December 08, 2003, 07:53:03 pm »

WHOOSH way over my head. Sorry bro! lol

Primus2003 · « **Reply #31 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:05:53 am »

An intriuging footnote in Star Trek history then and an interesting point. I remember DS9 during the Dominion War, I thought they were great and I was eagerly looked forward to the next ep. The writing was strong, powerful and there was a definite sense of continuity. Though on the flip side of the coin I only have this to say. What would Gene Roddenberry have said? Would he have agreed ? Really not just about the Dominion war, I think he would have seen and agreed with DS9 in that well Star Trek was oriiginally a wagon train to the stars correct? Well this would make DS9 a fort or outpost in said wagontrain. Flip side humanity is not supposed to be engaged in major war but humanity seemed to handle itself pretty well. Lok at William Shatner's Star Trek books, they gave, in my opinion, a far superior role I guess is the best. For still from Generations onward what would Gene have said?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #32 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:29:15 am »

Gene was an idealist and as such his ideology may have been a bit far from mid range. Not an extremist per se, but left of midline in the liberal side of things. (IMHO) He did give us in my opinion the most splendid view of the future and good space opera. But the slide in emphasis after his passing was good for the series in my opinion. And thus though Gene may have disapproved, it preserved some of his premises far longer than the vehicle would have lasted had it remained static in keeping with his vision. The series or series of series would have died much earlier and the bit of gene's dream that remained would have been silenced at least for a time.

Primus2003 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 09, 2003, 05:57:17 am »

Oh I admit that is true. I thoroughly enjoyed what DS9 did and it did help keep interest in the series piqued. I still miss it as much as TNG. Certain slide ins as you call them were necessary. How humanity handled war and the chaos, tradgedy and dubious ethics war brings in the 24th century. Within the Federation itself it is good to see humanity getting along, striving to better itself. During such outside circumstances ie the Dominion War or Voyager lost in the Delta Quadrant, then it is much easier, and more appropriate to bring in such aspect. Still I was focusing more on other aspects, I always had trouble with Generations, it just felt wrong. They would have been better making the series finale for Star Trek: The Next Generations, "All Good Things..." into a movie. While I loved it during my teen years it ended very appropriatly with a real thinking episode that made one have to think outside the box.
Plus there have been a few discontinuities popping up with Enterprise. I do actually like the show but it is still somewhat hard to see with the tech difference btwn it and the original trek, (I can still put that out of my mind but it is when discontinuities pop up that I do not like). Unless somewhat for the upcoming TOS on DVD will massively upgrade the special effects. Just it is hard to back into the past there. TO bad they did not try an Excelsior series or even an Enterprise-B series with Chechov as Captain. Seems that I wonder sometimes about Berman's decisions, I admit at if he did not want the Dominion war, how he ended Kirk's life etc. Though he helped to bring in some good stuff too., he created DS9 and Voyager to begin with. I do wish though he had taken in Shatner's books as canon for example. Plus what was done with the SFC games, surely something could have been done, though I still hope one day for SFC 4. . I guess I am of mixed thoughts here, maybe it is still to early

I still need to see the movie Nemisis, I did not see it in theatre on priniple, along with other movies now I can buy a dvd for the same if not slightly more to enjoy at my lesiure as it costs for my wife and myself to go to the movies. Anyway we will see I hope that he does well and Star Trek continues to "live long and prosper."

Draco · « **Reply #35 on:** December 09, 2003, 06:02:09 pm »

Am I the only one for whom this link does not work?

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Topic: Rick Berman...Trek's biggest hinderance (Read 6200 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Rat_Boy

Dogmatix!

Kortez

Iceman

Sethan

Kortez

Iceman

Primus2003

Stormbringer

Primus2003

Dogmatix!

Draco

Rat_Boy

Dogmatix!

Kortez

Iceman

Sethan

Kortez

Iceman

Primus2003

Stormbringer

Primus2003

Dogmatix!

Draco

Rat_Boy

Dogmatix!

Kortez

Iceman

Sethan

Kortez

Iceman

Primus2003

Stormbringer

Primus2003

Dogmatix!

Draco

Topic: Rick Berman...Trek's biggest hinderance (Read 6200 times)