Topic: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet. (Read 39998 times)

Stormbringer · « **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:51:47 pm »

Not as large a budget as it appears. The work done by self replicating drones. The infrastructure is what would drive the costs. It shouldn't be that much more expensive than the international space station or a colony on the moon or mars.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:54:47 pm »

Actually we do know quite a bit. Irridium iron platinum, diamonds, gold, silver, titanium a host of other things have been detected over the years by spectral analysis and other means. Mining is one of the proposed reasons to go there.

EDIT: and not all the asteroids would get used to make planets. coincidentally, they would need to be disposed of to make the planet safe.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2003, 11:18:30 pm »

Regarding the dyson sphere; I don't think ther is enough material in the solar system to build one with any degree of structural integrity. Not even if we completely demolished all of the terrestrial planets and the asteroid belts. It would be too thin and flimsy even if we did manage to completely eclose the sun in a shell. How thick could it be? and how would we have any material left over to construct the cities that are the point of a dyson sphere?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #43 on:** December 06, 2003, 09:58:23 am »

Damn it! The total mass of the asteroid belt is 1/30 th that of the earth? How can that be? It appears that the kuiper belt and Oort cloud have from 40 times the earth mass to more than the mass of jupiter. Looks like the robotic drones will have to travel a lot further and overcome a lot more momentum to get them where they need to be. It will also take a lot more of them due to thier icy composition. It could still be done. ...Delays. Delays.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #44 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:47:44 pm »

That does not sound right if Ceres is .25 the mass of the moon and the moon is even 10% the size of the earth then ceres is 2.5 percent of earth's mass. There are other large asteroids and countless small ones and even more dust. How in the heck can those figures be compatible. But thats what a google search on the mass of the asteroid belt turned up. Getting non ice mass from the Oort cloud and Kuiper belt would be extremely lengthy and tedious. can some one confirm the collective asteroid mass?

WillWeasel · « **Reply #45 on:** December 06, 2003, 09:21:47 pm »

I had heard that Ceres is a slight bit less then 1/2 of the total mass of the Belt. Here are some links were thats seems to be backed up by some "facts" This was just aquick search.

http://aa.springer.de/papers/8334002/2300729/sc3.htm

and as a quick reference the mass of earth is 6 x 10^24 kg roughly.

So ya the mass of the Belt seems to be to low to make even a mars like world.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #46 on:** December 06, 2003, 09:24:49 pm »

Darn it! Well there are fortunately other sources of material such as the kuiper and Oort material that can serve. Unfortunately, they are not close at hand and require a lot more work to process.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #47 on:** December 06, 2003, 09:30:38 pm »

Hey wait a minute! IIRC theory says the asteroid belt is the result of a failed terrestrial sized world trying to form at the beginning of the solar system. If so surely the rest of it didn't turn to dust and blow away. And it would blow away if it was dust sized due to the solar wind and photon pressure. But where did it go? Perhaps there is more of it there than we can see. Heck, they are still looking for planets and brown dwarfs just outside pluto orbit. It seems to me if they think we couldn't see a star sized mass outside pluto then how can they predict the mass available in construction rubble in a similar area?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #48 on:** December 07, 2003, 10:36:05 am »

Well, anyone have any ideas on the overall rock/metal mass component of the Oort cloud and Kuiper belt? The total mass (including ice and hydrocarbons) is from 40X terran mass to many times jupiters mass. Any ideas on reclaiming the stuff if it is just ice locked dust? I'm kind of holding a conversation with myself here. It's very amusing, I can assure you.

IntgrSpin · « **Reply #49 on:** December 07, 2003, 01:23:24 pm »

Nobody really knows how much mass is there. Estimates range from 0.5 of Earth to 10xEarth.

As for the asteroid belt, my gut tells me that there is a reason why no planet formed there in the first place (Jupiter, Sun) and any attempt to put one there, just wouldn't work.

To answer an earlier question, if there WERE a planet there, it's gravity wouldn't effect anything at all noticably. A good approximation of the Solar System is the Sun + Jupiter. All the other mass is negligible unless you get REAL close (hard to do by accident).

Stormbringer · « **Reply #50 on:** December 07, 2003, 01:39:40 pm »

I think mars being closer to jupiter argues against that. The proto-planet was demolished or it's formation was disrupted by something that happened early in the formation process. perhaps by strike, perhaps by gravity perturbations from the Gas giants. In other star systems the gas giants are further in towards thier stars. of all the examples we know of only a few have Gas Giants in the hinterlands. Actually only one I've read about. The gas giants likely migrated out rather than formed where they are at. If so the planet may have been destroyed as a result of that. There is no reason to believe the forces responsible are still at play.

Now because the estimated total mass is far greater than your figure you are talking about rocky or metalic mass only, not ice, right?

IntgrSpin · « **Reply #51 on:** December 07, 2003, 02:07:45 pm »

Quote:

I think mars being closer to jupiter argues against that.

Closer than what? Mars is at 1.5 AU, Jupiter is at 5.2 AU. Jupiter's mass is about 10^30g, the Sun is about 10^33g. (by comparison, the Earth is only about 10^27g). The asteroid belt is between Mars and Jupiter, in the 3-4AU range (I don't recall exactly).

Quote:

Now because the estimated total mass is far greater than your figure you are talking about rocky or metalic mass only, not ice, right?

I was quoting the estimated mass of the Oort cloud.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #52 on:** December 07, 2003, 02:13:30 pm »

The first few pages on the oort cloud I found said it was between 10 to 40 times earths mass and even up to several times jupiters. The imprecision is due to the fact that the Oort cloud has never been directly observed. it is mainly hypothesized by Jan Oort based on observations of long period comets. they appear to come from all directions equally. I thougt your lower figure might represent newer research or modeling since it matched the lower end of the figures I read.

Edit: Wierd. I read that a problem with sending things to maars was asteroids. But you are right the main belt is trans-mars orbit. Still I'm not sure jupiters gravity would destroy a planet. After all jupiter has moons of astonishingly large as well as small size. As does Saturn. Triton and titan are respectable in size.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #56 on:** December 07, 2003, 02:26:17 pm »

Yes I was in error. Odd.

Falaris · « **Reply #57 on:** December 07, 2003, 03:41:31 pm »

I think one theory is that the closer to the sun, the more dense materials are; thus you have primarily 'hard' planets closest to the sun - mercury, venus, earth, mars - and beyond is the gas giants, jupiter, saturn, neptune.... and that overgrown asteroid, Pluto.

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation. Jupiter's moons are not a good place to be.. possibly, one of the worst in the solar system.

IntgrSpin · « **Reply #59 on:** December 07, 2003, 07:06:44 pm »

I just remembered something, there is a phenomena known as Kirkwood Gaps, which occurs with orbital periods commensurate with Jupiter's at ratios 1/2, 1/3 etc... Asteroids with these periods have their eccentricity increased by perturbations with Jupiter continuously until they are ultimately ejected. Several such gaps occur in the Asteroid belt, where few or no asteroids are found.

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Topic: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet. (Read 39998 times)