Topic: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.  (Read 40012 times)

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Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #320 on: December 08, 2003, 12:26:05 am »
Orbital mechanics question:  Could a second planet occupy the same orbit as another if the velocity were the same and the position were diametrically opposed in the ellipse. one at aphellion and one at perihellion as an example. what would the tidal pull do to the relatively near by planet?

Tremok

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #321 on: December 08, 2003, 01:03:28 am »
Quote:

I think one theory is that the closer to the sun, the more dense materials are; thus you have primarily 'hard' planets closest to the sun - mercury, venus, earth, mars - and beyond is the gas giants, jupiter, saturn, neptune.... and that overgrown asteroid, Pluto.




 Pluto is in the Kuiper belt isn't it? Seems that nature already did what Stormbringer is proposing to do with machines. His inspiration, perhaps?  

Quote:

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation.




 I read that Jupiter, is in effect, an un-born star. If it had 50 times the mass it does now it would not be un-born.    
 

Tremok

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #322 on: December 08, 2003, 01:12:50 am »
Quote:

Falaris, so far 99 percent of all extra solar planets (well over 100 now) are gas giants larger than jupiter and so far all extra solar planets save one are in what we concider the orbital zone of terrestrial planets. IE; very close in to the sun.  




 Four solid inner planets, one with a huge moon, four outer gas gaints, one that seems to be spiraling towards its moon, two asteroids belts, one that has an asteriod the size of Texas, the other has a planetoid named Pluto, the Oort comet cloud, and perhaps even a Planet X that is circling the sun in some obscene orbit.

It seems to me that our system is somewhat odd.
 

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #323 on: December 08, 2003, 05:06:27 am »
Yes but that may be only because it is much harder to detect extra solar terrestrial sized planets. We have found one exception with two "maybes."

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #324 on: December 08, 2003, 05:07:55 am »
Well to be fair, in our solar system alone it's been done at least nine times in a major way.

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #325 on: December 08, 2003, 09:36:11 am »
Here is another example of a Gas Giant formed near the star Vega and migrating out ward. This is the second declared starsystem similar to our own in planetary configuration Vis; gas giants:

Unmasking Vega: Solar System Like Ours Emerges
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 06:03 am ET
08 December 2003

One of the closest and brightest stars in the sky appears to harbor a very familiar looking solar system, a young echo of our own complete with similar planets and an outer belt of colliding comets.

Vega is easily visible in the evening without a telescope. It is young, just 350 million years old compared to our Sun, which is 4.6 billion years old.

Vega is surrounded by an interesting dusty ring, which astronomers found in the early 1980s. It was the first discovery of a disk of material around another star. In the Carl Sagan's 1985 book "Contact," later a movie, Vega is the fictional source of radio transmissions.  
 
Ever since, researchers have seen more and more signatures of planet formation in the Vega dust ring. They peer through the dust now with high-powered, high-altitude telescopes. It is like unwrapping Christmas presents to reveal the mysteries inside.

New computer modeling suggest the star is indeed spawning a solar system much like our own. Time, however, is not on Vega's side.

A team of astronomers at the UK's Royal Observatory say clumps of dust in the disk-like ring can best be explained by a Neptune-sized planet orbiting Vega at about twice the distance Neptune is from our Sun. That configuration, the researchers say, allows plenty of room for rocky planets like Earth to develop closer to the star.

The work was led by Mark Wyatt at the observatory's Astronomy Technology Center.

Neptune's twin

The modeling suggests the Neptune-like planet formed much closer to Vega than its current position. As it moved outward over some 56 million years, it swept comet-like objects with it, creating the clumpy disk seen today. A similar scenario is thought to have unfolded in our own solar system. A separate recent study showed how the migration of Neptune might be responsible for a population of icy objects, called the Kuiper Belt, beyond Neptune.

Wyatt told SPACE.com that the comets around Vega, according to this scenario, collide and create the dust that's been observed.

The dust does not represent a conventional "protoplanetary disk" that is left over when a star is born, he said. In fact, the absence of dust nearer to Vega -- like a hole in a donut -- suggests other planets already formed there. Vega's dusty ring, on the outskirts of its gravitational influence, is a second-generation phenomenon, a product of planet and comet evolution rather than the seeds of their birth.

The similarity of the apparent evolution of the outer regions of Vega's environment and that around our Sun "suggests that the two systems may have formed and evolved in a similar way, and so Vega may also have planets inside the orbit of the Neptune-like planet," Wyatt said.

A Jupiter-sized planet could lurk there, in an orbit similar to Jupiter, he said.

Wyatt's team did not analyze whether an Earth-like planet might exist. However, he said, "based on this model, nothing would prevent such a planet forming."

Creative techniques might allow astronomers to make an image of the Neptune-sized planet, if it exists, Wyatt said. But the task, involving blocking out the overpowering light of Vega, won't be easy.

Planets abound

Vega is not the only young star thought to have a developing planetary system. Fomalhaut, also nearby and the 17th brightest star in our sky, appears to have a Saturn-sized planet and also looks like an early version of our solar system.

And more than 100 planets have been found around more mature stars. Many of these systems are configured differently, however, with a huge Jupiter-mass planet circling very close to the star. No close-in terrestrial planets could survive such a setup.

A handful of mature systems do look like they could support habitable planets. One, with a Jupiter-sized planet in a Jupiter-like orbit, was found this year. A similar system discovered in 2002 was shown, mathematically, to be capable of supporting an Earth-like planet.

The new model for Vega is explained in the Dec. 1 issue the Astrophysical Journal. It is based on observations by the SCUBA camera on the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope in Hawaii. The dust was observed in the submillimeter region of the electromagnetic spectrum, at the border between far-infrared and short-wavelength radio emissions.

Running out of time

There is one significant difference between Vega's system and the one we live in: Unlike the Sun, which has at least a billion years to go, and probably more, before it begins to swell dangerously, Vega won't last long.

"Because it is some three times more massive than the Sun, [Vega] has just 650 million years of main sequence lifetime left," Wyatt said. "It will never be truly Sunlike."

This time limit makes it less likely that life will ever develop around Vega.

At about 25 light-years distance, Vega is the fifth brightest star in Earth's night sky. It is 58 times more luminous than the Sun. Anyone can find it with the help of a simple star chart. It is high in the West as darkness falls and sets in the Northwest around 10 p.m. at mid-northern latitudes.

This article is part of SPACE.com's weekly Mystery Monday series.

 

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #326 on: December 08, 2003, 09:47:54 am »
This suggests that though planetary systems similar to our own are rarer than those with gas giants hogging the life supporting regions of star systems they are relatively common. They would make up about three percent of our sample of known planetary systems if you count the third one I was talking about earlier. That percentage may rise. For example; if the other star system mentioned in the article is not the other one I had heard of then there are four in our sample. It also said that there may be two generations of planetary formation in the lives of certain stars; even short lived ones like vega. This is getting better and better. The next generation of telescopes is being designed to be able to detect terrestrial sized planets. I cannot wait.  

Edit: fourth system confirmed: Vega, Fouhault, Carceri and Sol all have terrestrials in the life zone with gas giants in the boondocks. This means the sol like systems are at least four percent of the known sample.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 10:13:43 am by Stormbringer1701 »

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #327 on: December 08, 2003, 04:40:26 pm »
My gut tells me that you would have more problems than that. If I had to guess, I'd say that there is likely a very good reason why a planet hasn't ever formed there.

As for the planets in opposite gee's in the same orbit, it would depend on the mass of the planets, the mass of the thing holding them in orbit, and the radius of the orbit. I doubt two Earth sized things at our current orbit would give any problems. You can figure it out (the limits) for yourself using Newton, if you assume a heavy center (like a Star). As long as the gravitational acceleration between the two planets is far less than the orbital centripital acceleration (assumed to be balanced by gravity from the star) of either, you are probably okay. If you want to consider a smaller mass than a star at the center, you have a many-body problem, and have to use a perturbation theory to estimate your answer (a graduate level physics mechanics problem) .

As for planets leaving the star, the only way it can occur is by the transfer of rotational motion to orbital motion. This is done by the bodies tugging on imperfections of each other (like mountains or slushy cores), up to the point where they become tidally locked. Then they pretty much stay where they are, as far as I know. The moon is currently tidally locked to the Earth, but we are not yet to the moon, so the moon is still escaping. Eventually it should stop (unless the Chinese succeed in speeding up the Earth's rotation with their river damming.. pretty kewl ). This puts a lower and upper limit on how far a gas giant can move. From the data available, it looks like our outer planets haven't moved all that much. In fact, Jupiter is rotating at a stupendous rate... so much so, it is bulging at the center. I doubt it could rotate much faster without breaking apart!

One problem I have with extrasolar planets, is the method they use to determine the distance from the star. They suppose an average orbital inclination of 45 degrees relative to us. Obviously, if what you are judging mass on is wobble/wavelength shift, assuming a smaller angle will increase the relative wobble, making the body appear more massive, and vice versa.

It's maybe not a bad assumption to make for an average, but I'm not yet comfortable with the size and variety of the sample set.  

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #328 on: December 08, 2003, 07:22:46 pm »
I read ringworld so long ago (I was achild) that I cannot remember specifics something about a torus of gas around an unusual star? and a low G environment. and life forms that flew as a result.

IKV Nemesis D7L

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #329 on: December 08, 2003, 07:37:18 pm »
Quote:

I read ringworld so long ago (I was achild) that I cannot remember specifics something about a torus of gas around an unusual star? and a low G environment. and life forms that flew as a result.  




Right author, wrong book(s).

The Integral Trees and its sequel The Smoke Ring

Niven has a flair for creating unusual worlds.

In these novels there was a torus of breathable air around a neutron star.  The torus had been colonized by the crew of a sublight Starship  under compulsion by the ships AI.  

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #330 on: December 08, 2003, 11:11:54 pm »
Lots of looks but only a relatively few contributors. Surely someone has additional data or ideas. I know it is a mega engineering challenge on a scale never before attempted by earthlings but done with turing machines it should be possible and economically feasible. The necessity to go to the Oort cloud cind of throws a monkey wrench into the solar oven idea but there are alternatives.

Sirgod

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #331 on: December 08, 2003, 11:42:45 pm »
Quote:

Lots of looks but only a relatively few contributors. Surely someone has additional data or ideas. I know it is a mega engineering challenge on a scale never before attempted by earthlings but done with turing machines it should be possible and economically feasible. The necessity to go to the Oort cloud cind of throws a monkey wrench into the solar oven idea but there are alternatives.  




I hope you understand, that It takes me along time to research these Things Being Dyslexic Bro. But I'm doing my best to keep up.

However, I'm trying to come up with the Information to make this work "But ya keep changing the rules"  

hehe, Maybe theres away to make your radar training Pay off, by being able to scan the Various variables of the asteroids. IE. Density, Volume, Chemical composition.

Chemical Comp. that's a start, how about your Self Replicating Robots start off, with a Chemical Processing? One of my first jobs Was with allied Chemical, and we would Take core samples of Catalytic Converters, In order to find out Just how much Platinum we used.

this wa done with a simple burn, and spike test.

Maybe the Robots could do that , and come back with a mass result.

besides, it doesn't matter how large, But how massive, and It doesn't matter how massive, but how fast can we spin this Puppy.

Just a few ideas...

Stephen

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #332 on: December 08, 2003, 11:51:37 pm »
It's possible (you probably know more about it than I) but isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #333 on: December 08, 2003, 11:56:47 pm »
There are remote means of determining composition given sufficient bulk in the target that are non destructive. I just wish i had data now. It's hard to speculate based on too little data. I don't know if the requisite rocky matter is even out there.

Sirgod

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #334 on: December 09, 2003, 12:03:35 am »
Quote:

It's possible (you probably know more about it than I) but isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?  




T obe honest, It might tae me a while to answer that. I love math, But I'd have to look at alot of figures to even come close to an answer.


However, I do have a benifit That might be possible towards the earth, and that envolves, Using artificial masses, Likethe one you described, In order to change The gravitational/orbit of the planet, for Ozon layer Purposes.

What would be the effect of additional solar Planetary Gravity on the Ozone? Can we Micro Manage a planet to change an atmosphere, And If so, Can we use this for possible Coloniztion of mars, While at the same time , establishing a Base for the outer rings of our Solar system?

talk about needing Mass figures from Former threads, I think your onto something Jerry.

Stephen

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #335 on: December 09, 2003, 12:14:42 am »
Gravity effects on molecular gases are generally weaker than solar wind. Solar wind is what abraded mars atmosphere until most of the O2 was gone, leaving more of the heavier and unbreathable combinations. Ozone is a molecule of three oxygen atoms bound together. ozone affects UV penetration. We are concerned with the infrared of heat range of the spectrum. The gases that affect temperature range on a planet are things like carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor and perhaps a few others. Don't get me wrong ozone is important but ozone will form naturally provided the atmosphere has enough normal oxygen and water. Lightning, other  electrostatic forces and radiation will convert it. Our ozone layer will replenish itself within 50 years if left alone by man.

Because of Mars' weak gravity, the solar pressure and impacts were enough to force the lighter molecules out of Mars' atmosphere. That is why we need more planetary mass than Mars.

Sirgod

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #336 on: December 09, 2003, 12:21:02 am »
Quote:

Gravity effects on molecular gases are generally weaker than solar wind. Solar wind is what abraded mars atmosphere until most of the O2 was gone, leaving more of the heavier and unbreathable combinations. Ozone is a molecule of three oxygen atoms bound together. ozone affects UV penetration. We are concerned with the infrared of heat range of the spectrum. The gases that affect temperature range on a planet are things like carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor and perhaps a few others. Don't get me wrong ozone is important but ozone will form naturally provided the atmosphere has enough normal oxygen and water. Lightning, other  electrostatic forces and radiation will convert it. Our ozone layer will replenish itself within 50 years if left alone by man.

Because of Mars' weak gravity, the solar pressure and impacts were enough to force the lighter molecules out of Mars' atmosphere. That is why we need more planetary mass than Mars.  




Way out Idea Here Jerry, But what If we increased the mass of jupitor, By spinning It faster? Would this allow for an atmosphere On Mars, and how can we do this using Asteroidsal Collisions, Or by concentrating a combined asteroidal effect on the juptier plain? I believe this was your train of thought when you asked, about a Pelihydon Plane Of two equal Masses, in the same orbit?

stephen
 

Stormbringer

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Re: continuing on constructing an atmosphere
« Reply #337 on: December 09, 2003, 12:24:55 am »
By bombarding the planet with cometary material we can add water and oxygen and to an extent nitrogen from hydrocarbons in abundant supply. If we processed the stuff in solar ovens and centrifuges we could customize the gas ratios into any desired combination. I favor one as close to earth as possible with additional greenhouse gases to compensate for distance from the sun as it is likely it would be in an orbit further out than earth. The green house gases would raise the temperature after the distance lowered it. They would have to balance out.

As to distance: even with Mars' weak atmosphere and distance from the sun the record summer temperature recorded is about 80 degrees farenheit. So the temperature problem is manageable.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2003, 08:57:12 am by Stormbringer1701 »

Sirgod

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Re: continuing on constructing an atmosphere
« Reply #338 on: December 09, 2003, 12:31:51 am »
sorry Storm, I've got to Get some sleep.  let's take this up tomorrow Morning If we can.

Stephen

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #339 on: December 09, 2003, 12:42:44 am »
Well jupiter would likely explode if it spun any faster. It is already deformed radically from it's very fast spin. Spinning would not increase it's mass (you are thinking of inertia). And even if it did it would not affect the variables we want to manipulate. In fact increasing jupiters mass, if it was possible, might ignite nuclear fusion and create a short lived star.

The question about tidal forces was in the event Integerspin is correct and a planet cannot form in the asteroid zone due to jupiter's gravity interactions. I was considering parking the planet in an established orbit like that of Mars or even the Earth. Baring tidal problems if they were at the same speed in the orbit on opposite sides of the ellipse they would never collide. I was asking about tidal and gravitic induced tectonic damage, earthquakes, volcanoes; that sort of thing.

I do not know enough to know if that is a safe idea. If it was and enough material could be found we could build multiple Earth-like planets and solve all sorts of humanities problems for millenia to come.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2003, 12:44:58 am by Stormbringer1701 »