Topic: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.  (Read 40016 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sethan

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #220 on: December 10, 2003, 04:34:28 pm »
Erm... won't significantly increasing the mass of Mars (to increase the gravity) also change the orbit of the planet?

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #221 on: December 10, 2003, 04:49:03 pm »
It might.  gravitic equations, force equations, orbital mechanics all have mass components. However by carefully controlling the vector that the new mass is moved along as it is being applied to the base mass it should be possible to keep the orbit constant by altering the orbital velocity at the same time. do you see what I am talking about or do I need to elaborate to clarify the idea? As an aside a minor alteration in orbital elipse size would not present to large a problem. we don't want the planet carooming off into space or colliding with another planet.


As an aside there is a panned but generally accurate rule of thumb for orbital distance known as Bode's law that accurately predicts the location of planets in the solar system. It may be that planets are compelled somehow to assume these orbits or be cast out. There is some unkown but natural phenomenon at work behind Bode's correlation.

Sethan

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #222 on: December 10, 2003, 05:13:32 pm »
Storm, if you're talking about slamming these masses into the planet at high enough speeds to significantly affect the orbital velocity, you're talking about doing very bad things to the planet itself.  The trick would be in not ending up with a second asteroid belt.

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #223 on: December 10, 2003, 05:24:23 pm »
No, the asteroids would be processed down to manageable non planet busting size set on a path to collide with a specific region of the planet and imparted with a proper incremental velocity. We do want some stress to the planet but not eough to shatter it.Tectonic activity on Mars has all but ceased. so has convection in the interior. That is why there is no magnetosphere. you could alter the planets vector with B B's if you used enough of them. By striking from different sides at different points along the orbit we can slow the orbit enough to maintain its orbital path.If the orbit is not in danger then the rest of the asteroid mass can be added as micrometeorites. there will be thousands of little turing machines carrying out that work. Any orbit shifting needed will be handled further out by specialized machines which can do the proper analysis.  
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 05:28:21 pm by Stormbringer1701 »

Sethan

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #224 on: December 10, 2003, 05:28:39 pm »
Why am I reminded of the most recent incarnation of the movie version of The Time Machine, and what happened to the moon?

Sounds great as long as it works like you plan it to.

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #225 on: December 10, 2003, 05:46:14 pm »
Of course, Newton worked out the equations that explain how planets orbits can be determined. Before anything like this would be attempted it would be modeled to death. Each gram could be modeled for what effects it would have. Tons of space dust land on the earth each day. We have yet to spiral into the sun or zoom off into space. We have been struck by impactors large enough to kill off almost 90 percent of all lifeforms at least three times.  There are craters so huge that we could not detect them except from space. The planet is still here in a stable orbit. I'm not even sure that the mass change would significantly affect the orbit of the planet unless we designed the impacts to have that effect. If that is the case the equations would immediately tell us of any such danger and modeling certainly would. They might tell us to just dump the asteroid dust evenly on the surface. I might do the math this weekend. If so, I'll let you know. I'd feel better if one of our engineer or scientist friends did it though even if the equations are straight forward.  

Sethan

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #226 on: December 10, 2003, 06:11:41 pm »
Quote:

Of course, Newton worked out the equations that explain how planets orbits can be determined. Before anything like this would be attempted it would be modeled to death. Each gram could be modeled for what effects it would have. Tons of space dust land on the earth each day. We have yet to spiral into the sun or zoom off into space. We have been struck by impactors large enough to kill off almost 90 percent of all lifeforms at least three times.  There are craters so huge that we could not detect them except from space. The planet is still here in a stable orbit.  




All true, Storm - but you are talking about adding enough mass to increase the planet's gravity by 150%.  That's gonna make a difference.

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #227 on: December 10, 2003, 06:19:12 pm »
I will work the equations for a mars sized planet at mars orbit and an earth sized planet in the same orbit then I'll *try* a vector equation based on mars being struck by various masses, velocities and directions. My bet is the size would have to be huge for it to do anything from a single impact whether that something is destroying the planet or flinging it away. Too bad I cannot post scientific formula symbols here.  

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Terrestrial Planets Are Common According To Computer Sims
« Reply #228 on: December 11, 2003, 05:05:04 pm »
This is relevant because it has to do with orbital mechanics for various mass terrestrial planets. Also because it says terrestrial planets are common.

Earth-Like Planets Common, Computer Simulation Suggests
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 02:51 pm ET
11 December 2003

 

A new computer model designed to explore the range of possibilities for planet formation around other stars had no trouble coming up with worlds similar to Earth.  
 
     More Stories
 
 
 Cyber Planets: Building Virtual Worlds to Explore Signs of Real Life

 
 
 
 
 30 Billion Earths? New Estimate of Exoplanets in Our Galaxy

 
 
 
 
 Shadow Moons: The Unknown Sub-Worlds that Might Harbor Life

 
 
 
 
 Study Narrows Candidate Stars that Might Harbor Earths

 
 
 
 
 Kepler Mission to Find Earth-Like Planets Gets Green Light

 
 
 

 

The simulations generated planets in similar orbits, planets with and without water, and a range of other virtual places that resemble Earth and the other inner, rocky planets.

The effort was designed to determine whether the four inner planets in our solar system, called terrestrials, represent a typical or extreme evolutionary scenario compared to what might develop around a Sun-like star with slightly different dynamics, explained said Sean Raymond, a University of Washington doctoral student in astronomy.

"We found there's a much wider possible range of masses and water content on terrestrial planets," Raymond said in a telephone interview.

"You can have planets that are half the size of Earth and are very dry, like Mars, or you can have planets like Earth, or you can have planets three times bigger than Earth, with perhaps 10 times more water," Raymond said.

Raymond worked with Thomas Quinn, an associate astronomy professor at the university, and Jonathan Lunine, a professor of planetary science and physics at the University of Arizona. Their results, announced today, will be published in the journal Icarus.

Behind the simulations

Astronomers have found more than 100 planets around other stars. All are at least as massive as Saturn and not the sorts of places where intelligent life is likely to flourish. But theorists are using what they've seen as a springboard for imagining what might lurk undiscovered within those systems. A handful are, mathematically, capable of supporting Earth-mass planets in Earth-like orbits.

The new model considered what sorts of rocky planets might form around a star with a known giant planet. The simulations represent the extremes of what is possible, the researchers say, and so it's not known which of them might represent reality.

There is just one giant planet in each of 44 simulations. The model makes an assumption that a giant planet forms quickly, before terrestrials. (Theorists have not determined whether or not that is how things happened in our solar system.) Gravity-based formulas are put in place and time is allowed to evolve. Virtual small rocks collide and stick and eventually form terrestrial planets.

In some cases the initial planet contains the mass of Jupiter, in others it's weightier. Its orbit is like Jupiter's one time, much more elliptical the next.

The validity of the model is suggested by the fact that when the virtual Jupiter takes on characteristics similar to the real Jupiter, a set of inner planets similar to those in our solar system tends to develop.

However, Raymond said, very minor adjustments to the starting conditions fueled wildly different outcomes.

One simulation generated just one terrestrial planet, a whopper up to four times as massive as Earth with up to half again as much water. In another model, five small terrestrials were born, but all were significantly smaller than Earth.

At least one terrestrial planet of some sort was spawned by each scenario.

Key to life: Water

One goal of the study was to determine whether habitable planets might be a common development around other stars. Scientists agree that water is the primary key to life as we know it. Water on the virtual worlds turned out to be dependent on the orbit of the outer, giant planet.

Non-circular routes, called eccentric orbits, are bad news.

"The more eccentric giant planet orbits result in drier terrestrial planets," Raymond said. "Conversely, more circular giant planet orbits mean wetter terrestrial planets."

Here's why: A giant planet in a circular orbit tends to send water-laden asteroids inward, where some of them strike the terrestrial planets and deliver the water. Giant planets orbiting eccentrically tend to kick asteroids outward.

Earth is thought to have been dry when it formed. Water, theorists think, was delivered later by asteroids or comets, which formed farther from the Sun where water could be retained, Raymond said.

In the case of our solar system, Jupiter's orbit is slightly elliptical. The researchers said this middle-of-the-road, real-world scenario could explain why Earth is not a total waterworld nor a complete desert.

 

WaterTiger

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #229 on: December 11, 2003, 05:05:42 pm »
Hmmmmm .... Interesting.

Would you be interested in the space/time continuim and zero gravity?

 Zero what?

Uggggg. My brain is starting to hurt on the left side, just like it did when teacher tried to cram algebra in it. Hell, I can barely balance my checkbook.

WaterTiger
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by WaterTiger »

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #230 on: December 11, 2003, 05:10:44 pm »
  We've discussed ZPE before. Either here or at battleclinic OT. Fascinating but hard to harness, due to limitations of the casimir effect to tap it.  

WaterTiger

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #231 on: December 11, 2003, 05:15:33 pm »
 
Quote:

  casimir effect




Ahhhh, stop. My head is hurting.

Is this like the "Dopler Shift"?

I'm gonna be sorry I asked, I know ...  

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #232 on: December 11, 2003, 05:31:08 pm »
in the context of ZPE the casmir effect is a way of removing the "virtual" from the phrase virtual particles and utilizing the particles (or their motion) as energy. The casimir effect comes into play when two plates spheres or other charged bodies are in extremely close proximity. The effect is even more pronounced when the charge bodies move away from each other. The more rapidy the more energy can be snagged. Unfortunately at all but the most ludicrous speeds the energy captured from the vacuum by the casimir effect is vanishingly small. Perhaps by creating an array of molecule sized casimir plates on a chip one could create a casimir based ZPE generator that could be used to power something. That is how it stands now. There may yet be a way to get useful amounts of power from the ZPE because theoretically the energy available is infinite.

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #233 on: December 29, 2003, 08:08:05 pm »
Back from the dead bump!

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #234 on: December 29, 2003, 11:12:38 pm »
To recap: I think there is enough debris and dust bunnies laying about the solar system to make another earth sized planet or modify mars to the mass of earth. I think there is enough cometary material to create an atmosphere comparable to earth's in density and gas make up. I think that with self replicating robotic miners the material could be gathered into one place and set into orbit in th life zone of the sun. I think this could be done economically (relatively speaking.) I think such a project might unite much of the world the way a threat from space would but without all the death and destruction. I think that such a goal is worthy noble and doable.



should we build planets?
Yes.  It would challenge and unit mankind.
Yes, but in the far future and not now.
No. It is impossible, expensive, and risky.
No. We really don't know how and besides there is not enough material.
No. We would be playing God.
What have you been smoking?




 

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #235 on: March 02, 2004, 07:00:13 pm »
in light of recent planetary science missions data: BUMP!

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #236 on: March 02, 2004, 09:09:43 pm »
Only Three Votes? You're a bunch of space wussies!

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #237 on: March 22, 2004, 12:37:33 am »
Heh. heh. I thought so.

 planetary material  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 12:51:12 am by Stormbringer »

nexa1

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #238 on: March 22, 2004, 03:48:20 am »

 I kind of missed a little. I do like the idea of having 2 planets in the same orbit opposite of eachother. You do realize that this concentrated mass would also alter the path of some planets near by. Not to mention changing the gravitational constant of the solar system.

 Tell me again how do we get the new planet to rotate?
 And how do we get it to revolve around the sun. Using the roadrunner thrust move?


   

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #239 on: March 22, 2004, 07:20:09 am »
The gravity effect would likely be negligible for most of the orbits I'd choose -as the solar life zone is quite large and the climate can be controlled in a number of ways to compensate for distance from the sun.  Greenhouse gases, thier opposite, particulate suspensions, reflectivity and so forth. Tthough Im not sure about gravity effects for for the trojan orbit idea. As for orbit that is what such masses do naturally due to gravity. It is a question of imparting the proper velocity to make a stable orbit rather than one which would crash into the sun. The opposite possibility; a planet achieving solar escape velocity and heading the other way is unlikely.There are precisely acurate equations to determine this starting from Newton's classical equations. Both the the orbital velocity and rotation could be built in as the planet's mass is built up so that massive planetary engines would be unnecessary.  The proper rotation is adjusted by carefully playing billiards with the incoming matter used to form it. Each hit could be controlled to additively alter the rotation and orbit. Likely both robotic processing of raw material on the planets locus and the bombardment method would need to be used to acomplish this.