Topic: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

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I read ringworld so long ago (I was achild) that I cannot remember specifics something about a torus of gas around an unusual star? and a low G environment. and life forms that flew as a result.  

Right author, wrong book(s).

The Integral Trees and its sequel The Smoke Ring

Niven has a flair for creating unusual worlds.

In these novels there was a torus of breathable air around a neutron star.  The torus had been colonized by the crew of a sublight Starship  under compulsion by the ships AI.  

[Stormbringer]

Lots of looks but only a relatively few contributors. Surely someone has additional data or ideas. I know it is a mega engineering challenge on a scale never before attempted by earthlings but done with turing machines it should be possible and economically feasible. The necessity to go to the Oort cloud cind of throws a monkey wrench into the solar oven idea but there are alternatives.

[Sirgod]

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Lots of looks but only a relatively few contributors. Surely someone has additional data or ideas. I know it is a mega engineering challenge on a scale never before attempted by earthlings but done with turing machines it should be possible and economically feasible. The necessity to go to the Oort cloud cind of throws a monkey wrench into the solar oven idea but there are alternatives.  

I hope you understand, that It takes me along time to research these Things Being Dyslexic Bro. But I'm doing my best to keep up.

However, I'm trying to come up with the Information to make this work "But ya keep changing the rules"  

hehe, Maybe theres away to make your radar training Pay off, by being able to scan the Various variables of the asteroids. IE. Density, Volume, Chemical composition.

Chemical Comp. that's a start, how about your Self Replicating Robots start off, with a Chemical Processing? One of my first jobs Was with allied Chemical, and we would Take core samples of Catalytic Converters, In order to find out Just how much Platinum we used.

this wa done with a simple burn, and spike test.

Maybe the Robots could do that , and come back with a mass result.

besides, it doesn't matter how large, But how massive, and It doesn't matter how massive, but how fast can we spin this Puppy.

Just a few ideas...

Stephen

[Stormbringer]

It's possible (you probably know more about it than I) but isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?

[Stormbringer]

There are remote means of determining composition given sufficient bulk in the target that are non destructive. I just wish i had data now. It's hard to speculate based on too little data. I don't know if the requisite rocky matter is even out there.

[Sirgod]

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It's possible (you probably know more about it than I) but isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?  

T obe honest, It might tae me a while to answer that. I love math, But I'd have to look at alot of figures to even come close to an answer.


However, I do have a benifit That might be possible towards the earth, and that envolves, Using artificial masses, Likethe one you described, In order to change The gravitational/orbit of the planet, for Ozon layer Purposes.

What would be the effect of additional solar Planetary Gravity on the Ozone? Can we Micro Manage a planet to change an atmosphere, And If so, Can we use this for possible Coloniztion of mars, While at the same time , establishing a Base for the outer rings of our Solar system?

talk about needing Mass figures from Former threads, I think your onto something Jerry.

Stephen

[Stormbringer]

Gravity effects on molecular gases are generally weaker than solar wind. Solar wind is what abraded mars atmosphere until most of the O2 was gone, leaving more of the heavier and unbreathable combinations. Ozone is a molecule of three oxygen atoms bound together. ozone affects UV penetration. We are concerned with the infrared of heat range of the spectrum. The gases that affect temperature range on a planet are things like carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor and perhaps a few others. Don't get me wrong ozone is important but ozone will form naturally provided the atmosphere has enough normal oxygen and water. Lightning, other  electrostatic forces and radiation will convert it. Our ozone layer will replenish itself within 50 years if left alone by man.

Because of Mars' weak gravity, the solar pressure and impacts were enough to force the lighter molecules out of Mars' atmosphere. That is why we need more planetary mass than Mars.

[Sirgod]

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Gravity effects on molecular gases are generally weaker than solar wind. Solar wind is what abraded mars atmosphere until most of the O2 was gone, leaving more of the heavier and unbreathable combinations. Ozone is a molecule of three oxygen atoms bound together. ozone affects UV penetration. We are concerned with the infrared of heat range of the spectrum. The gases that affect temperature range on a planet are things like carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor and perhaps a few others. Don't get me wrong ozone is important but ozone will form naturally provided the atmosphere has enough normal oxygen and water. Lightning, other  electrostatic forces and radiation will convert it. Our ozone layer will replenish itself within 50 years if left alone by man.

Because of Mars' weak gravity, the solar pressure and impacts were enough to force the lighter molecules out of Mars' atmosphere. That is why we need more planetary mass than Mars.  

Way out Idea Here Jerry, But what If we increased the mass of jupitor, By spinning It faster? Would this allow for an atmosphere On Mars, and how can we do this using Asteroidsal Collisions, Or by concentrating a combined asteroidal effect on the juptier plain? I believe this was your train of thought when you asked, about a Pelihydon Plane Of two equal Masses, in the same orbit?

stephen
 

[Stormbringer]

By bombarding the planet with cometary material we can add water and oxygen and to an extent nitrogen from hydrocarbons in abundant supply. If we processed the stuff in solar ovens and centrifuges we could customize the gas ratios into any desired combination. I favor one as close to earth as possible with additional greenhouse gases to compensate for distance from the sun as it is likely it would be in an orbit further out than earth. The green house gases would raise the temperature after the distance lowered it. They would have to balance out.

As to distance: even with Mars' weak atmosphere and distance from the sun the record summer temperature recorded is about 80 degrees farenheit. So the temperature problem is manageable.

[Sirgod]

sorry Storm, I've got to Get some sleep.  let's take this up tomorrow Morning If we can.

Stephen

[Stormbringer]

Well jupiter would likely explode if it spun any faster. It is already deformed radically from it's very fast spin. Spinning would not increase it's mass (you are thinking of inertia). And even if it did it would not affect the variables we want to manipulate. In fact increasing jupiters mass, if it was possible, might ignite nuclear fusion and create a short lived star.

The question about tidal forces was in the event Integerspin is correct and a planet cannot form in the asteroid zone due to jupiter's gravity interactions. I was considering parking the planet in an established orbit like that of Mars or even the Earth. Baring tidal problems if they were at the same speed in the orbit on opposite sides of the ellipse they would never collide. I was asking about tidal and gravitic induced tectonic damage, earthquakes, volcanoes; that sort of thing.

I do not know enough to know if that is a safe idea. If it was and enough material could be found we could build multiple Earth-like planets and solve all sorts of humanities problems for millenia to come.

[IntgrSpin]

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isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?

Sure. Near as I can remember, there is something like the mass of 2/3 of the moon in the asteroid belt currently. I'd look it up though, because I don't really remember.

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Spinning would not increase it's mass (you are thinking of inertia).

Actually it does, a teeny weeny bit.  

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I was asking about tidal and gravitic induced tectonic damage, earthquakes, volcanoes; that sort of thing.

Gravity is weak enough that you needn't worry. If you think about it, we periodically come closer to Mars and Venus than we ever could to a 'trojan planet'.

My take on the thing is that in the beginning, we're going to be too busy not dying out there to be worried much about 'contaminating' the solar system (much like the New World in the 1500's). By the time we start to worry about preserving pristine extra-terrestrial environments, we'll probably have a McDonalds on Mimas.  


   

[Stormbringer]

Is that determined by direct observation or by measuring tidal perturbations in planet and asteroid movement? It seems low. The amount of dust that was blown away would be many many times what is left if that is the case. But even if it is correct the kuiper belt has some mass that is not ice or hydrocarbon. Beyond that is the Oort cloud and the escaped dust mentioned earlier.

If it weren't for the outcry that would ensue I'd just drop the load of asteroids on Mars to increase it's mass and thus gravity. The proper atmosphere could then be held. The oxygen and nitrogen would not escape. Water vapor would be held the temperature would increase. Planetary ice fields would melt. The hydrocycle would heat up. Greenhouse effect would become self reinforcing. Weather would develop including thunderstorms with lightning and ozone would naturally develop.  Unfortunately that would be stymied for centuries as the ethics of the situation were endlessly debated.  

[IntgrSpin]

I threw "mass asteroid belt" into google and got some hits. This from Minnesota State,

http://www.mankato.msus.edu/emuseum/information/solarsystem/asteroid_belt.html

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Asteroids are small, rocky, irregular bodies orbiting the sun. The first asteroid was discovered by Giuseppe Piazzi in 1801. He originally thought he had found a comet, but found that its orbit more closely matched those of planets rather than comets. He named the object Ceres. Ceres is the largest of all known asteroids. It is 933 km in diameter and contains about 25% of the mass of all the asteroids. The asteroids together have a mass less than that of the Moon.

The majority of the known asteroids exist between Mars and Jupiter. This area contains over 4,000 numbered bodies. This area is unique because the asteroids did not form a planet. Jupiter's early formation may have affected this area by either sweeping up or ejecting many of the bodies.

Asteroids within the asteroid belt, or Main Belt asteroids are divided into subgroups named after the main asteroid of the subgroup. Asteroids not within the Main Belt are either Near Earth Asteroids or Trojans, which are asteroids near Jupiter

I have no idea how the mass was determined.

It is true that the molecules in the atmosphere form a Maxwell distribution, and molecules that end up in the high speed tail will escape. However, even for a planet the size of Mars, the time for the average molecule to escape would probably be low enough that if you put an Earth-sized atmosphere around Mars, it would probably keep it for several hundred million years (assuming it was also kept abnormally hot... for us). You can probably figure it out yourself. Get the mass of Mars, figure out what the escape velocity is, pick a mean average temperature, and apply a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. Assume that we can live with the atmosphese depleting to 75% of whatever we start with (maybe choose sea level on Earth as a base), and solve for t. I'd be surprised if it wasn't several hundred million years.

 

[Stormbringer]

My understanding is that molecules at the very outer edge of the atmosphere are dislodged from the weak gravity holding them there by everything from brownian collisions, cosmic ray collisions, solar wind, photon pressure, meteor and other macro-body impacts and even thermal motion. Mars gravity, at a mere 33% of earth's allows far more of this loss than higher gravity worlds such as Earth. During the close study of mars evidence that Mar's atmosphere was much thicker and had far more water nitrogen and oxygen than it does now. and most of that atmosphere was lost to space. Some ended up bound in the rock and ice. For example there is a lot of oxygen in the form of rust or oxide compounds which give a red tint to the planet. Mars current atmospheric pressure is nearly a vacuum and what little is there is unbreathable even if the pressure was greater.

This data is why I assume a larger Mass would be needed to ensure Mars could retain  a breathable and radiation shielding atmosphere. That supposition may be false but more mass would also increase the gravity which would make humans more at home and allow for returning to Earth for people who had been there for some time or were even born there.

[IntgrSpin]

For the hell of it, I did the calculation. I got about ~5000 m/s for the Mars escape velocity, and assumed the atmosphere was exclusively oxygen. From 1 atm to 0.75 atm, at a mean temp of 15C, t=26 million years.

I thought this was kinda low, but then remembered that our atmosphere is constantly being replenished. Still... 26 million years isn't too bad.    

[Stormbringer]

No it's not bad at all. My sin is conflating brief periods of time on a cosmic scale with brier periods of time in human scales.[IIRC that is about the amount of time the planetary scientist said it took for it to lose the old atmosphere minus major impact ejections ( evidence of which includes martian origined meteorite found on earth)]


I still need to bomb the planet with comets  though. It is the only way to get a suitable atmosphere in acceptable human time scales. The other methods are far to slow. Genetically engineered microbes to free the bound oxygen from the soil, Lichens to absorb heat and warm the polar ice and permafrost would take 100s of thousands of years if not millions of years. Most of earths early oxygen supply cam from photo-plankton in the oceans which Mars lacks. They could do it faster but still to slow for waiting colonists. And with the vacuum like conditions and sublimation the supporting layers would not form (ozone and similar layers.) And I would still like the gravity to be as near Earth's as possible. So I might need to rain asteroid bits on the planet as well.

Perhaps I am just violent.

[IntgrSpin]

Maybe we should send all our Ford Expiditions up there.    

[Stormbringer]

All SUVs.  

[Stormbringer]

Another bad thing about mars is there is no magnetosphere and the cosmic ray dose rate would be twice what is is in the ISS. Shielding would be necessary unless The atmosphere created would stop enough of it. The added mass would likely cause the break up of the crust and restart both tectonic migration and convection celles in the core to mantel region. This would create a magnetosphere.