Topic: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.  (Read 40017 times)

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IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #180 on: December 07, 2003, 02:07:45 pm »
Quote:

I think mars being closer to jupiter argues against that.




Closer than what? Mars is at 1.5 AU, Jupiter is at 5.2 AU. Jupiter's mass is about 10^30g, the Sun is about 10^33g.  (by comparison, the Earth is only about 10^27g). The asteroid belt is between Mars and Jupiter, in the 3-4AU range (I don't recall exactly).

Quote:

Now because the estimated total mass is far greater than your figure you are talking about rocky or metalic mass only, not ice, right?




I was quoting the estimated mass of the Oort cloud.    

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #181 on: December 07, 2003, 02:13:30 pm »
 The first few pages on the oort cloud I found said it was between 10 to 40 times earths mass and even up to several times jupiters. The imprecision is due to the fact that the Oort cloud has never been directly observed. it is mainly hypothesized by Jan Oort based on observations of long period comets. they appear to come from all directions equally.  I thougt your lower figure might represent newer research or modeling since it matched the lower end of the figures I read.

Edit:  Wierd. I read that a problem with sending things to maars was asteroids. But you are right the main belt is trans-mars orbit. Still I'm not sure jupiters gravity would destroy a planet. After all  jupiter has moons of astonishingly large as well as small size. As does Saturn. Triton and titan are respectable in size.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2003, 02:22:05 pm by Stormbringer1701 »

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #182 on: December 07, 2003, 02:16:38 pm »
Quote:

The gas giants likely migrated out rather than formed where they are at.




The only way they could migrate out is by transferring angular momentum to orbital momentum (like the Moon did). Since their masses are only in the 10^28 range, and they currently aren't tidal locked as far as I know, I doubt it.  

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #183 on: December 07, 2003, 02:19:16 pm »
Quote:

The asteroids are between earth and mars.




You are mistaken. The asteroid belt is between Mars and Jupiter.  

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #184 on: December 07, 2003, 02:21:57 pm »
Quote:

I thougt your lower figure might represent newer research or modeling since it matched the lower end of the figures I read.




No, it's probably an old estimate by now. This is what it was back when I was an undergrad. Still, those upper estimates seem a bit high...  

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #185 on: December 07, 2003, 02:26:17 pm »
Yes I was in error. Odd.

Falaris

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #186 on: December 07, 2003, 03:41:31 pm »
I think one theory is that the closer to the sun, the more dense materials are; thus you have primarily 'hard' planets closest to the sun - mercury, venus, earth, mars - and beyond is the gas giants, jupiter, saturn, neptune.... and that overgrown asteroid, Pluto.

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation. Jupiter's moons are not a good place to be.. possibly, one of the worst in the solar system.

   

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #187 on: December 07, 2003, 06:53:24 pm »
Quote:

Still I'm not sure jupiters gravity would destroy a planet. After all jupiter has moons of astonishingly large as well as small size. As does Saturn. Triton and titan are respectable in size.




I don't think Jupiter alone could do the trick, but Jupiter + The Sun at that point may be destructive, or at the very least, inhibit planet formation.

Quote:

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation. Jupiter's moons are not a good place to be.. possibly, one of the worst in the solar system.




On the contrary, I'd guess that one of the reasons we are here at all is because of Jupiter. The big guy has been busy ejecting asteroids and comets from the solar system for the past 6 or so billion years.

I'm not sure how much fusion or fission is going on in Jupiter. Stars don't burn from uncontrolled fission chain reactions. If they did, then they would blow themselves apart pretty quickly. Stars balance fusion explosions with gravitational implosion. Jupiter lacks the mass to properly implode.

As for the radiation, I know that Jupiter has some pretty nasty synchrotron radiation, but in the radio part of the spectrum. I also know that there is a problem with spacecraft interacting with the high energy electrons that cause the synchrotron radiation, in that they are excellent destroyers of electronics. In addition, Jupiter has a nifty x-ray beacon at its poles. Last I heard, it was being caused by Io's volcanoes tossing junk into Jupiter orbit that was getting ionized by its killer magnetosphere. I don't know of any significant beta radiation comming from the big guy.

 

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #188 on: December 07, 2003, 07:06:44 pm »
I just remembered something, there is a phenomena known as  Kirkwood Gaps, which occurs with orbital periods commensurate with Jupiter's at ratios 1/2, 1/3 etc... Asteroids with these periods have their eccentricity increased by perturbations with Jupiter continuously until they are ultimately ejected. Several such gaps occur in the Asteroid belt, where few or no asteroids are found.  

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #189 on: December 07, 2003, 09:33:32 pm »
Falaris, so far 99 percent of all extra solar planets (well over 100 now) are gas giants larger than jupiter and so far all extra solar planets save one are in what we concider the orbital zone of terrestrial planets. IE; very close in to the sun.





5

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #190 on: December 07, 2003, 09:37:03 pm »
I'm familiar with them. Suppose I used ceres as a seed for my planet and left it in place while adding mass little by little? Evidently, it is not in a kirkwood gap. Incidently, there are such gaps in the rings of the gas giants too. They are caused more by collision and absorbtion than gravity flux of some sort.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2003, 09:39:27 pm by Stormbringer1701 »

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #191 on: December 08, 2003, 12:26:05 am »
Orbital mechanics question:  Could a second planet occupy the same orbit as another if the velocity were the same and the position were diametrically opposed in the ellipse. one at aphellion and one at perihellion as an example. what would the tidal pull do to the relatively near by planet?

Tremok

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #192 on: December 08, 2003, 01:03:28 am »
Quote:

I think one theory is that the closer to the sun, the more dense materials are; thus you have primarily 'hard' planets closest to the sun - mercury, venus, earth, mars - and beyond is the gas giants, jupiter, saturn, neptune.... and that overgrown asteroid, Pluto.




 Pluto is in the Kuiper belt isn't it? Seems that nature already did what Stormbringer is proposing to do with machines. His inspiration, perhaps?  

Quote:

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation.




 I read that Jupiter, is in effect, an un-born star. If it had 50 times the mass it does now it would not be un-born.    
 

Tremok

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #193 on: December 08, 2003, 01:12:50 am »
Quote:

Falaris, so far 99 percent of all extra solar planets (well over 100 now) are gas giants larger than jupiter and so far all extra solar planets save one are in what we concider the orbital zone of terrestrial planets. IE; very close in to the sun.  




 Four solid inner planets, one with a huge moon, four outer gas gaints, one that seems to be spiraling towards its moon, two asteroids belts, one that has an asteriod the size of Texas, the other has a planetoid named Pluto, the Oort comet cloud, and perhaps even a Planet X that is circling the sun in some obscene orbit.

It seems to me that our system is somewhat odd.
 

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #194 on: December 08, 2003, 05:06:27 am »
Yes but that may be only because it is much harder to detect extra solar terrestrial sized planets. We have found one exception with two "maybes."

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #195 on: December 08, 2003, 05:07:55 am »
Well to be fair, in our solar system alone it's been done at least nine times in a major way.

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #196 on: December 08, 2003, 09:36:11 am »
Here is another example of a Gas Giant formed near the star Vega and migrating out ward. This is the second declared starsystem similar to our own in planetary configuration Vis; gas giants:

Unmasking Vega: Solar System Like Ours Emerges
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 06:03 am ET
08 December 2003

One of the closest and brightest stars in the sky appears to harbor a very familiar looking solar system, a young echo of our own complete with similar planets and an outer belt of colliding comets.

Vega is easily visible in the evening without a telescope. It is young, just 350 million years old compared to our Sun, which is 4.6 billion years old.

Vega is surrounded by an interesting dusty ring, which astronomers found in the early 1980s. It was the first discovery of a disk of material around another star. In the Carl Sagan's 1985 book "Contact," later a movie, Vega is the fictional source of radio transmissions.  
 
Ever since, researchers have seen more and more signatures of planet formation in the Vega dust ring. They peer through the dust now with high-powered, high-altitude telescopes. It is like unwrapping Christmas presents to reveal the mysteries inside.

New computer modeling suggest the star is indeed spawning a solar system much like our own. Time, however, is not on Vega's side.

A team of astronomers at the UK's Royal Observatory say clumps of dust in the disk-like ring can best be explained by a Neptune-sized planet orbiting Vega at about twice the distance Neptune is from our Sun. That configuration, the researchers say, allows plenty of room for rocky planets like Earth to develop closer to the star.

The work was led by Mark Wyatt at the observatory's Astronomy Technology Center.

Neptune's twin

The modeling suggests the Neptune-like planet formed much closer to Vega than its current position. As it moved outward over some 56 million years, it swept comet-like objects with it, creating the clumpy disk seen today. A similar scenario is thought to have unfolded in our own solar system. A separate recent study showed how the migration of Neptune might be responsible for a population of icy objects, called the Kuiper Belt, beyond Neptune.

Wyatt told SPACE.com that the comets around Vega, according to this scenario, collide and create the dust that's been observed.

The dust does not represent a conventional "protoplanetary disk" that is left over when a star is born, he said. In fact, the absence of dust nearer to Vega -- like a hole in a donut -- suggests other planets already formed there. Vega's dusty ring, on the outskirts of its gravitational influence, is a second-generation phenomenon, a product of planet and comet evolution rather than the seeds of their birth.

The similarity of the apparent evolution of the outer regions of Vega's environment and that around our Sun "suggests that the two systems may have formed and evolved in a similar way, and so Vega may also have planets inside the orbit of the Neptune-like planet," Wyatt said.

A Jupiter-sized planet could lurk there, in an orbit similar to Jupiter, he said.

Wyatt's team did not analyze whether an Earth-like planet might exist. However, he said, "based on this model, nothing would prevent such a planet forming."

Creative techniques might allow astronomers to make an image of the Neptune-sized planet, if it exists, Wyatt said. But the task, involving blocking out the overpowering light of Vega, won't be easy.

Planets abound

Vega is not the only young star thought to have a developing planetary system. Fomalhaut, also nearby and the 17th brightest star in our sky, appears to have a Saturn-sized planet and also looks like an early version of our solar system.

And more than 100 planets have been found around more mature stars. Many of these systems are configured differently, however, with a huge Jupiter-mass planet circling very close to the star. No close-in terrestrial planets could survive such a setup.

A handful of mature systems do look like they could support habitable planets. One, with a Jupiter-sized planet in a Jupiter-like orbit, was found this year. A similar system discovered in 2002 was shown, mathematically, to be capable of supporting an Earth-like planet.

The new model for Vega is explained in the Dec. 1 issue the Astrophysical Journal. It is based on observations by the SCUBA camera on the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope in Hawaii. The dust was observed in the submillimeter region of the electromagnetic spectrum, at the border between far-infrared and short-wavelength radio emissions.

Running out of time

There is one significant difference between Vega's system and the one we live in: Unlike the Sun, which has at least a billion years to go, and probably more, before it begins to swell dangerously, Vega won't last long.

"Because it is some three times more massive than the Sun, [Vega] has just 650 million years of main sequence lifetime left," Wyatt said. "It will never be truly Sunlike."

This time limit makes it less likely that life will ever develop around Vega.

At about 25 light-years distance, Vega is the fifth brightest star in Earth's night sky. It is 58 times more luminous than the Sun. Anyone can find it with the help of a simple star chart. It is high in the West as darkness falls and sets in the Northwest around 10 p.m. at mid-northern latitudes.

This article is part of SPACE.com's weekly Mystery Monday series.

 

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #197 on: December 08, 2003, 09:47:54 am »
This suggests that though planetary systems similar to our own are rarer than those with gas giants hogging the life supporting regions of star systems they are relatively common. They would make up about three percent of our sample of known planetary systems if you count the third one I was talking about earlier. That percentage may rise. For example; if the other star system mentioned in the article is not the other one I had heard of then there are four in our sample. It also said that there may be two generations of planetary formation in the lives of certain stars; even short lived ones like vega. This is getting better and better. The next generation of telescopes is being designed to be able to detect terrestrial sized planets. I cannot wait.  

Edit: fourth system confirmed: Vega, Fouhault, Carceri and Sol all have terrestrials in the life zone with gas giants in the boondocks. This means the sol like systems are at least four percent of the known sample.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 10:13:43 am by Stormbringer1701 »

IntgrSpin

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #198 on: December 08, 2003, 04:40:26 pm »
My gut tells me that you would have more problems than that. If I had to guess, I'd say that there is likely a very good reason why a planet hasn't ever formed there.

As for the planets in opposite gee's in the same orbit, it would depend on the mass of the planets, the mass of the thing holding them in orbit, and the radius of the orbit. I doubt two Earth sized things at our current orbit would give any problems. You can figure it out (the limits) for yourself using Newton, if you assume a heavy center (like a Star). As long as the gravitational acceleration between the two planets is far less than the orbital centripital acceleration (assumed to be balanced by gravity from the star) of either, you are probably okay. If you want to consider a smaller mass than a star at the center, you have a many-body problem, and have to use a perturbation theory to estimate your answer (a graduate level physics mechanics problem) .

As for planets leaving the star, the only way it can occur is by the transfer of rotational motion to orbital motion. This is done by the bodies tugging on imperfections of each other (like mountains or slushy cores), up to the point where they become tidally locked. Then they pretty much stay where they are, as far as I know. The moon is currently tidally locked to the Earth, but we are not yet to the moon, so the moon is still escaping. Eventually it should stop (unless the Chinese succeed in speeding up the Earth's rotation with their river damming.. pretty kewl ). This puts a lower and upper limit on how far a gas giant can move. From the data available, it looks like our outer planets haven't moved all that much. In fact, Jupiter is rotating at a stupendous rate... so much so, it is bulging at the center. I doubt it could rotate much faster without breaking apart!

One problem I have with extrasolar planets, is the method they use to determine the distance from the star. They suppose an average orbital inclination of 45 degrees relative to us. Obviously, if what you are judging mass on is wobble/wavelength shift, assuming a smaller angle will increase the relative wobble, making the body appear more massive, and vice versa.

It's maybe not a bad assumption to make for an average, but I'm not yet comfortable with the size and variety of the sample set.  

Stormbringer

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Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
« Reply #199 on: December 08, 2003, 07:22:46 pm »
I read ringworld so long ago (I was achild) that I cannot remember specifics something about a torus of gas around an unusual star? and a low G environment. and life forms that flew as a result.