Topic: Antimatter Cruiser in old JPL Study

[762]

Quote:
.84 seconds? Sounds rather clean compared to elements with half lifes of 50K years or more. Perhaps not so big a problem as I initially thought. Of course, there are; in addition to induced radiation, direct particle creation in the resultant plasma which could casue tertiary radioactive elements. This is after all second only to the big bang in terms of creative and destructive potential. It is a "Little bang."  

A short half-life does not mean it's less radioactive, it just means you have to worry about it for less time. An alpha particle is still an alpha particle. Stuff like carbon-14 with a half-life of thousands of years is more inconvenient because of the longer time it's poses a radiological threat but something with a short half-life will give off much more intense radiation initially.

[Ryker]

You guys want energy? I dont mean this poxy antimatter stuff (lol), Im talking S**t loads of energy...?

Three words- Zero Point Energy  


Check this out- Im writing an essay on the subject at the moment for university:

 http://www.zpower.net/zpe.htm

 

[Stormbringer]

Yes. But consider an alpha particle is charged and thus can be easily controlled with magnetic or electrical grids. It can even be used to induce current in coils surrounding the exhaust nozzle. Neutrons have a half life of ten minutes when not bound to protons so neutrons are a short term problem also. They are harder to direct than charged particles but my understanding is that this can now be done as well using some technique or another. It was solved thanks to the SDI program in the eighties. Of course the shorter the half life the more intense the radiation compared to an equal mass of longer lived elements. Still theres no need to dump a gallon of the stuff together even if we could manage to produce that amount. I envision a trickle perhaps even intermitantly. The output thrust would build over time thus preventing the crew from becoming puddles of goo on the rear of the bridge from the G forces of a full scale reaction. Plus a trickle would be easier to dampen in directions destructive to the reactor vessel. And on top of that it would make it easier to capture power with induction coils. No if that russian scientist's in Scotland research is only replicated then we might be talking.  

[Stormbringer]

Ha! That is what I'm using to charge up the containment vessel and linear fusion impulse engines. Those are my APUs.
Seriously, What scheme are you proposing to cohere the fluctuating vacuum potential? Most methods I've read about suggest using charged plates or spheres moving at relativistic speed (No meagre task in itself) using the casimir effect.

[Stormbringer]

Theoretically zero point energy is limitless. However, mainstream scientists doubt we will ever be able to effectively harness it. For theoretical, technical and even philosophical reasons. Be that as it may; the theory they invoke is misapplied, Technical considerations can be overcame, and philosophy has no place in determining a hypothesis' validity. ZPE can work and some mainstream scientists are slowly and grudgingly admitting there is something to it in terms of appplication.

All that aside, zero point energy gathering schema are unlikely to equal antimatter conversion in terms of energy density at any given moment. ZPE might be harnessed to power a ships systems or even ignite fusion reactors but to suggest they can provide the thrust of an antimatter explosion is a bit of a stretch. ZPE is definitely worth looking into but propulsion will not be an application. The cohering apparatus is too fragile to be near such violent levels of energy production.  

[Stormbringer]

Bathrooms are part of the standard package. We just won't film when people are in, entering or leaving the latrines. Else one fine day you might hear the following:   "This is Picard taking a healthy dump. Out."  Crusher:  "I gotta drop a load that could choke a donkey!" (whatever that means)

[Ryker]

Quote:
Ha! That is what I'm using to charge up the containment vessel and linear fusion impulse engines. Those are my APUs.
Seriously, What scheme are you proposing to cohere the fluctuating vacuum potential? Most methods I've read about suggest using charged plates or spheres moving at relativistic speed (No meagre task in itself) using the casimir effect.  

As far as I know- theres two schools of thought as to whether the source of ZPE is either:

1. Electromagnetic radiation at an ultra low frequency,
2. Some kind of quantum interation between atoms at energy states approaching (or equal to) zero- hence the liquid helium experiments, or
3. Strangest of all, something called "quantum foam". Im still kind of unsure as to what exactly this quantum fluctation is, or does, but Ive dug up something from the NASA website to try and explain:



"What is 'quantum foam'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an idea that was originally proposed by Nobel physicist John Wheeler back in the early 1960's to describe what space-time 'looks like' at scales of 10^-33 centimeters. The basic idea is that gravity is a field with many of the same fundamental properties as the other fundamental 'force' fields in Nature. This means that the state of this field is, at some level, uncertain and described by quantum mechanics. Since Einstein's general theory of relativity requires that gravitational fields and space-time be one and the same mathematical objects, this means that space-time itself is also subject to the kinds of uncertainty required by quantum systems. This indeterminacy means that you cannot know with infinite precision BOTH the geometry of space- time, and the rate of change of the space-time geometry, in direct analogy with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle for quantum systems. Wheeler imagined that this indeterminacy for space-time required that at the so-called Planck Scale of 10^-33 centimeters and 10^-43 seconds, space-time has a foaminess to it with sudden changes in its geometry into a wealth of complex shapes and textures. You would have quantum black holes appear at 10^-33 centimeters, then evaporate in 10^-43 seconds. Wormholes would form and dissolve, and later theorists even postulated 'baby universe' production could happen under these conditions. The problem is that we have no evidence that 1) gravity is a quantum field and 2) that space-time has this type of structure at these scales.




To answer your original question about how to harness the quantum vacuum fluctuations, I'd have to go beyond my current understanding of quantum electrodynamics. However, I'll point you towards one of my  sources , and a quote which may answer your question. In reality, though, if scientists had found a way to control the quantum fluctuations involved with ZPE, expect it to be on the front page of every science journal, indeed every newspaper, on the planet.  

[I heard about some scientist at Caltech recently suggest using "bubbles" in water to extract ZPE in usable quantities- the properties of the bubble being that as it's symmetrical, if it collapses into itself, it would be subject to the same churning and bubbling of the "ether", or quantum fluctuations, as any smaller particle. I havent heard anything more on this, though, so I suppose his idea failed.  

[Ryker]

Quote:
Ha! That is what I'm using to charge up the containment vessel and linear fusion impulse engines. Those are my APUs.
Seriously, What scheme are you proposing to cohere the fluctuating vacuum potential? Most methods I've read about suggest using charged plates or spheres moving at relativistic speed (No meagre task in itself) using the casimir effect.  

In terms of practicality, you're right about the amounts of energy extracted from casimir plates, compared to matter/antimatter annihilation. However, if someone was able to configure the field around the cas plates to be as-symmetrical (instead of being confined to within the plates, facing backwards along the axis of, say, a starship), you'd have an engine. Albeit not a powerful one, but an engine providing energy, and thrust.

Also, even if ZPE is unable to equal the energy output of Matter/Antimatter reactions, maybe the energy "harvested" from the zero point domain could be used to "flip the charge" of particles of matter, turning them into antimatter? (see the STTNG Tech manual about the onboard emergency antimatter generator   - as a result, using ZPE to power this theoretical generator...?

Maybe it cant be used as a means of propulsion directly on board a starship, but I cant see the problem with having a fixed station using this energy to churn out antimatter...!


Out of interest, how did the Enterprise get access to such vast quantities of antimatter?

[Stormbringer]

If I recall correctly, the TOS series had them bringing it aboard in special containment tanks. Further at the time of TNG they had developed a quantum process for converting ordinary matter. They still had lots of storage devoted to holding it in large quantities but they could regenerate thier own supplies over time. This is again IIRC.

[Stormbringer]

Creating an assymetrical field is as easy as varying the surface area or shape of the plates. There was a recent hubabalu  generated by NASA repackaging Brown's claims on assymetrical capacitors and gaining what are essentially duplicate (and larcenous)  patents on his concepts. However I though the casimir effect depended upon absolutely equal charges on the plates or spheres to even manifest the effect in regards to ZPE. If so then that kind of nerfs that idea.

[Death_Merchant]

I understand the "cool factor", but why think too seriously about this?

This is so far removed from practical engineering possibility, that it's much like the old Popular Mechanics articles of 50 years ago talking about flying cars and robot servants.  

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

Quote:
I understand the "cool factor", but why think too seriously about this?

This is so far removed from practical engineering possibility, that it's much like the old Popular Mechanics articles of 50 years ago talking about flying cars and robot servants.  

# "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
-William Thomson, Lord Kelvin English Scientist, 1899

# "(In the future,) computers may weigh no more than 1.5 tons!"
-Popular Mechanics, 1949

# "Who wants to hear actors talk?"
-H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927

Sometimes reality exceeds predtictions.  Sometimes it falls short.   How heavy do you think my PDA is?  

[Stormbringer]

I don't really think its *necessarily* that far off. particularly if an intensive effort were driven towards it in a similar vein to the appollo program or space station for example. Things have proceded apace since this was written in the eighties or the study was commisioned. When the SSSC was a going concern it was estimated it would produce an ounce or so of antimatter per year. Since then, laser and penning  trapping has been developed, better sources of antimatter have been discovered, containment has went from humongous magnetic bottle apparatus to electrical confinement to metal hydride/ceramic ionic technology. And production and containment have always been the main technical problems. The rest of the technical problems such as long duration life support and radiation shielding have advanced as well. The remaining stuff is the same as it is for the station or shuttle and those are well under control. MHD inductive power regeneration systems are an area where the russians excell in thier research with exotic submarine tech. The actual engine is not all that different from the NERVA nuclear rocket studied long ago. If we wanted to we could have one cruising in one or two decades. And we really have something like that before we consign fragile humans to a months long trip to Mars or elsewhere. Else there could be no hope if something goes wrong a long way away from home.

[Death_Merchant]

I never said it was impossible.

I said we are no where near close to having the engineering knowledge to even begin thinking about such a ship.

Pratt&Whitney just released a PR in "Aerospace Engineering" about a ground firing of their hydrocarbon-fueled scramjet emgine. Scramjets are a concept dating back over 50 years. Bear in mind that these puppies are bolted to big-ole Cu heat sink tables to keep it all from melting down. They have quite a bit of work to do to get airborne.

I know. I work in this area (materials).

Just because someone says it's impossible does not make it so....
and just because someone can draw or conceive of something, doesn't mean it can be made....  

[Stormbringer]

if the reaction took place outside the ship with a timed buffer of a substance like water in between the AM reaction and the ship. with the ship having a large shock mounted block of shielding/pressor plate. Then material science would not need need extensive advancement for that.  

[Sirgod]

Quote:
Creating an assymetrical field is as easy as varying the surface area or shape of the plates. There was a recent hubabalu  generated by NASA repackaging Brown's claims on assymetrical capacitors and gaining what are essentially duplicate (and larcenous)  patents on his concepts. However I though the casimir effect depended upon absolutely equal charges on the plates or spheres to even manifest the effect in regards to ZPE. If so then that kind of nerfs that idea.  

It was my understaning that the Casimir effect involved Virtual particles or At least negative energy  between the two plates. An equal charge of negative enrgy might be possible, But we have a hard enough time with Positive energy.

Incredibly enough the casimir effect has been shown to actually have two electricly  neutral objects attract each other, But I haven't heard or read about negative charged objects attracting each other.

stephen

[Stormbringer]

ZPE via the casimir effect is slowly gaining grudging respectability in more mainstream scientific cicles. Formerly it was the stuff of fringe science almost exclusively. Now occasional acknowledgement is becoming normal but no one seems to want to make the leap of saying it is worth study as a means to produce nearly free and unlimited energy. I am watching it from time to time to see how the situation is evolving.