Topic: eve+sfc+dyna-mmog=dream game

[Raniz Murjuri]

yeah i have to reply to this.. yet again.

there have been countless debates on wether Skill based games and Level based games, are the same or better than the other.

I'm not saying a SFC MMORPG shouldn't implement skills or Levels..

But looking at the facts.. Levels and Skills that are in the game creates so much unbalance.
Which is why i loved SFC, it was all natural skill or Player skill after learning the game.
unbalanced games are so fanatical now.. they pop up like wildflowers, unbalanced skills and skill caps and levels are the reason people create templates and post thier "best" templates all over the internet. the One with the best template has an advantage over the game created template and the all player skill characters.
which in turn Creates the "uber" toon, blah.. i hate this.

Remove the Skills and levels, and create the Player skill only Game, and you'll have the better game. there will be no more whinning about "well he has a huge advantage over me" or "You only won cuase your level 80 fury can cast chain AOE's"
you can only cry about not having the skill it takes to win, but most people love the challenge of becoming better players.
Learned this while running fleets and guilds in games
the good side of SFC was pretty much everyone was willing to help the Noob. it's different in MMORPG's. not everyone will help the noob be better players.
Exspecially the Lone Warriors,
Basically due to the amount of actual Role Playing.

So in conclusion.. IMHO.....
There in lays another reason the SFC/SFB combat design and engine should be used.. The first MMORPG to not utilize a level or Skill based system in the game. Only relying on learning the game to play.
Everyone is equal in the begining and the end.
   

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

Quote:
 wheres the dead horse icon around here?  

Dead horse or not.  I'm stating what I want....and that's more SFB based SFC.

It doesn't mean we can't expand from there strategically, role playing, etc (all these things are actually in SFB by the way).  But I want the core material of any future SFC game (ships, weapons, races, etc.) to remain SFB based.

Nanner, you and others on this thread say you want Trek based games.  Well you're lucky then....you could fill your shelves with them.

I want an SFB based game.  Well my choices are limited........and now you guys are advocating no more SFB based games (dead horse or not).

How do you think that makes me feel?

Nanner I do plan to try your mod and the TNZ mod eventually (yes I bought SFC3, played through the campaigns, and then put it on the back burner).  Right now though I'm excited about the OP+ shiplist and the GAW mod.  This is more in line with my passions.  

[Mr_six]

The game I had in mind is actually a step in between a normal stand alone game with network support and a mmog.  Given the current situation with the startrek universe (the success of the movies, the squabble between activision and paramount) I am not holding my breath for a startrek mmog.   It would require a large investment upfront.  The mmog genre is also crowded and growing at a slower rate then what was expected.  It's still a niche market.  

"StarTrek" needs some serious help.  I'm actually enjoying the current season of enterprise but UPN is the wrong place for it.  It should be on the sci-fi channel IMHO.  I liked nemesis but a lot of people didn't (I don?t think it helped that it came out around the same time as X2 and two towers).  What's needed is a high quality product in all three segments.

I think eve's 3d engine is very good.  A similar engine could be used with sfc rules.  All the movement rates, weapon  reload times and everything that we love about sfc would work with it.  Even the shields.  At a top and bottom shield and you would be able to roll the ship to keep the strongest shields facing your opponent.  I'm not talking about bridge commander here :P

It would be impossible to create a seemless universe  though since battles would still have to be handled on the client side.  Even with eve, mass ship combat didnt really work.  with 20+ ships things bogged down a lot.  Its just too much for the internet.  Even if everyone was on broadband, it would be too much.  

Nanner, I have finally been able to play your mod and I love it.  I am looking forward to the campaign.  
   

[NannerSlug]

actually hyper, if you go to the average store, there are no trek games. if you are lucky there might be a single copy of elite force 2.

if you want sfb THAT bad, talk svc into pumping dollars into sfb online. that is a point per point exact replication of sfb.

btw, thank you mr six - wait until you see the next build with properly scaled ships, hard points and damage.

[SBOAdam]

 

Quote:
 It would be impossible to create a seemless universe though since battles would still have to be handled on the client side. Even with eve, mass ship combat didnt really work. with 20+ ships things bogged down a lot. Its just too much for the internet. Even if everyone was on broadband, it would be too much.
 

Actually no it wouldnt be impossible but you cant think that such a game would be the kind that anyone can put a server up, in fact if there were such a game it woud be more like the way SWG is set up.  meaning that they  run the servers. (infact each "server" is comprised of more than one machine the least they have is one sever cluster per planet it might even be more)  while there might indeed be "seams" since every time you pass from one server to the next you would be forced into a "load"  but you would be able to have masive human battles.  although considering that in swg to "run" from one end of the planet to the other would take in the range of an hour or more (real time watching your monitor) so the hardware requirement would most likely be less than SWG.

basicly it could be done right now if the sfc3 combat engine was used since there is no z axis you could take SWG replace the people with ship models, replace all the scenery and terain with stary images and boom you have your self a space mmorg  (which is funny becuase sony is building a space expansion for swg that will basicly do the same)  so it is possible we just need a publishing company that realizes there is money to be made and to lay down some investment capital and do a good job of it and actually market it, it would be sucessfull.

[DH123]

I still think OP is a better building block for an all-era's mod than SFC3.  For no other reason, it has more race slots.  

[NannerSlug]

race slots does not matter. the ship release time does, but that can be coded in.

lets see here.

*all races have phasers (not trek).
*range breaks
*missiles
*very poor graphics compared to 3
*no character/officer development
*you cannot supply from a friendly base.

(the list goes on with improvements from sfc3)

i would say sfc3 is very, very close to making a true multiera release. all that would need to be done is

a) make ships released during years
b) make avaiable a few more race slots.

thats it, nothing else - whola!

sorry, going to have to disagree with you. like i said before, when this next build i produce comes out, check it out.. but dont expect it to be sfB.. it is an attempt to bring the sweat/flavor of sfc2 to sfc3 and to build on and extend detail/polish that should have been added.

it isnt perfect, but for me, it is vastly better than op and a heck of a lot more like trek than any other sfc (which its objective).

i am hoping with some of the new scripts that are being developed that some of the exploration will even come into the game.

some of us (like that guy above) hit the nail on the head when he said that there is far more to trek than just the combat. i mean, that is one of the best things about sfc (better than bc) - but in a mm game, if they could just do it like the nwn servers - and make it to where you have some RP elements which include exploring.. some of us would love the chance to really explore new worlds - or come nose to nose with an opponent out of no where  - instead of chasing them around a hex map.. or getting a distress call from a nearby sector and warping to their assistance.

none of those things are doable with op. (and less with sfc3 - but there are more elements which could be taken).

[DH123]

Quote:

*very poor graphics compared to 3

Oh, come on Nanner, it's the same game engine

That said, I really wish  that OP had Moddable weapons, or SFC3 had seeking weapons.    

[NannerSlug]

no its not. it is roughly the same engine, but it is not the exact same engine.. you put the two side by side graphics wise and sfc3 comes out on top. im sure erik and company can testify to how much $$ they sunk into overhauling the graphics.

thats okay though. imo, things could be taken up another notch or two. (mostly spent on modeling and texturing, etc).

[Raniz Murjuri]

Quote:
The game I had in mind is actually a step in between a normal stand alone game with network support and a mmog.  Given the current situation with the startrek universe (the success of the movies, the squabble between activision and paramount) I am not holding my breath for a startrek mmog.   It would require a large investment upfront.  The mmog genre is also crowded and growing at a slower rate then what was expected.  It's still a niche market.  
I think eve's 3d engine is very good.  A similar engine could be used with sfc rules.  All the movement rates, weapon  reload times and everything that we love about sfc would work with it.  Even the shields.  At a top and bottom shield and you would be able to roll the ship to keep the strongest shields facing your opponent.  I'm not talking about bridge commander here :P
It would be impossible to create a seemless universe  though since battles would still have to be handled on the client side.  Even with eve, mass ship combat didnt really work.  with 20+ ships things bogged down a lot.  Its just too much for the internet.  Even if everyone was on broadband, it would be too much.  
   

Thats good you envisiona step inbetween an Actually MMO and a stand alone, thats good and creative. but dynaverse is that step inbetween.

I'm evisioning a full MMO game.
Only because this game needs to hit that genre now.
Not because of the Money it would produce or not.. but because people would play it. they would buy something that they can can play without constantly asking to Balance the races, or economy, or even the Griefers.

My vision is using the SFC combat engine, in a 2D or 3D environment. Buy only taking the Combet engine, your only taking what the ships need to fight a 1v1 or 2v2 battle.. ect.. ect..
your taking sensors, ECM/ECCM, shields, Power, weapons, range breaks, recharge rates, penalties, and everything you use to fight a 1v1 fight now.. + adding a few elements that would fit into a full MMO persistant state world, but thats just for combat, there's many elements you can use or implement into a MMO.. but by far the game has balances before it's a MMO, that make actuall MMO's jealous.
And thats the key..all these MMO's that are done in space are cheap immitations of How a Space MMO should be..
Hell Jumpgate was good.. but it still didn't feel like space. it felt like a fighter jet Simulator.
EVE was very PRETTY!, but it lacked in the overall aspect of a Game worth playing. (IMHO) i got bored playing it.. the very first day.
Earth and Beyond, well it just plain sucked.
and SWG.. we're all still waiting for the Space Expansion. (**cough*****another 2 years***cough**)
I never played that other game, but i'm willing to try it.

And Actually the MMO market isn't saturated with MMO's, it's Saturated with lack of Quality MMO's it's saturated with the Same Genre', all done in Medevil times.. and fantasy worlds.
i posted a list of the current MMO's due to release in 2004
HERE
 and out of those, only 3 are not medevil fantasy worlds.
Matrix Online
City of heroes
And Pirates of the Burning sea.

But none of them are space sims or reflect a MMO in space.

If you make a Trek MMO out of the SFC series, and Make it 100% player vs. Player i can almost taste the the new blood from other games with big names like DAoC, EQ, and anyone who would love to see actual player skill without the "uber" templetes or taking the time to make a good template.
Taking the SFC combat engine and throwing it into a MMO, increasses the game Play.. cause it's 100% player skill..(-minus the magic photon) everyone starts off Even.. with no Pharming groups for XP and no skills to build.
It's 100% power divided By, weapons, sensors,shields,speed, and all that other good stuff we use to kill each other.
Your skill is measured by how well you pilot your ship.. not by exploits or how High level you are.. or how fast you can get you skill slider to max.
I mean sure you can have your skills in the game... but not for combat.. use skils for Mining, trading, and politics.. keep the combat equal.

Another thing i'm envisioning, is the total new way the game is played.. no more "portalling" "jumping" " or "Summoning"  Warp speed is just like moving  anywhere.. except it'll be a set top speed, setting a course and heading, the pushing a button that says "Warp", and finally after a 4-7 sec delay.. warping (flying the fastest speed x2,3 or 4 to your next destination).
And not some "insta get there"  AKA: portaling, jumping or Summoning.

And yet another Vision.. Giving it a better "trek" feel.. with just the SFB combat feel.. By simply taking out the drones.. and plasmas and adding the basic Trek weapons.. you increase the less "lag" and "grief play"
"grief play"= in a space MMO usaully mean throwing as much crap in space to lag your opponents computer, so he doesn't see you killing him. before his computer loads all those Textures. Example: the famous "MoO" exploit in EVE online, camp a Highly used Jumpgate.. and flood the area with canisters, then sit back and wait for the next ship to use the gate.


I'm begining to think i ramble too much

there's So much i want to let out.. including Races, politics, and Trade.. but i just cant.. cause it's way too long to type.. and it's 2:10 am right now here.


But as for 20+ in a area creating lag.. umm broadband code it. dont use 56k code. decrease the the graphic a bit and add collision detection.
Pirates of the Burning Sea is trying the very same thing i just mentioned.. i'll tell ya how it works.. If i get into beta testing phase 2 or later.
They are braodband coding it.. and doing a few other things.. i didn't mention... besides the fact.. that the game will not be On strore shelves.. only Downloaded from Steam. and free! except for the monthly account fee.
yep thats right.. you dont buy the game.. you only pay the monthly charge for your account.

EDIT:
You know if i new how to really develope, code, and service my vision of this game, i would do all this by myself, just to see if players and game lovers flocked to it.

 

[Mog]

Quote:
race slots does not matter. the ship release time does, but that can be coded in.

lets see here.

*all races have phasers (not trek).
*range breaks
*missiles
*very poor graphics compared to 3
*no character/officer development
*you cannot supply from a friendly base.

(the list goes on with improvements from sfc3)

i would say sfc3 is very, very close to making a true multiera release. all that would need to be done is

a) make ships released during years
b) make avaiable a few more race slots.

snip

Noted a few inconsistencies here. First line "race slots does not matter". Last line that I quoted "make avaiable a few more race slots". Make your mind up?

Phasers for everyone. Considering how little ship combat there was in TOS, who's to say other races didn't use them, just not shown on screen?

Re range breaks. From what I've seen, SFC3 has range breaks too. They are probably expanded more than the SFB based ones, but they are still different hit chances at different ranges.

Missiles - Ferengi in TNG have used them. Considering how little ship combat there was in TOS, who's to say other races didn't use them, just not shown on screen?

Can't see how you can say OP has very poor graphics. Look fine to me.

Agree with you on the officers and the supply at allied bases.

[Proximo]

Lets extrapolate on this pseudo-MMOG.  What is the big downside to dynaverse?  The servers - someone has to host them, someone has to pay for the bandwidth.  What if we were able to layer a P2P/GRID style comm system over the existing code.  This isn't as hard as you would think - Given what I can gather from the info provided by NuclearWessels etal, this is how Gamespy currently works.  Once the mission is selected and the players chosen the game kicks into P2P between each gamers system.  Why not apply the same principles to a new version of the dynaverse - A P2P layer that kicks off the Gamespy routines for tactical combat.  You could use a F&E style persistent campaign, autogenerated mission scripts, Fleet command structures, economics modules, the possibilities are endless.

Just a thought  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:
Lets extrapolate on this pseudo-MMOG.  What is the big downside to dynaverse?  The servers - someone has to host them, someone has to pay for the bandwidth.  What if we were able to layer a P2P/GRID style comm system over the existing code.  This isn't as hard as you would think - Given what I can gather from the info provided by NuclearWessels etal, this is how Gamespy currently works.  Once the mission is selected and the players chosen the game kicks into P2P between each gamers system.  Why not apply the same principles to a new version of the dynaverse - A P2P layer that kicks off the Gamespy routines for tactical combat.  You could use a F&E style persistent campaign, autogenerated mission scripts, Fleet command structures, economics modules, the possibilities are endless.

Just a thought    

I believe the TOC guys already do this.

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
race slots does not matter. the ship release time does, but that can be coded in.
`
lets see here.
`
*all races have phasers (not trek).
*range breaks
*missiles
*very poor graphics compared to 3
*no character/officer development
*you cannot supply from a friendly base.
`
(the list goes on with improvements from sfc3)
`
i would say sfc3 is very, very close to making a true multiera release. all that would need to be done is
`
a) make ships released during years
b) make avaiable a few more race slots.
`
thats it, nothing else - whola!
`
sorry, going to have to disagree with you. like i said before, when this next build i produce comes out, check it out.. but dont expect it to be sfB.. it is an attempt to bring the sweat/flavor of sfc2 to sfc3 and to build on and extend detail/polish that should have been added.
`
it isnt perfect, but for me, it is vastly better than op and a heck of a lot more like trek than any other sfc (which its objective).

As you say, your points are strictly from your point of view. However you miss the most important factors in this your continual "SFC3 is SFC2/OP but better" arguments.

OP was never setup to replicate TOS or TMP or TNG. This is a point that those that wish to "pit" SFC2/OP vs. SFC3 continually fail to understand and there in is the flaw in all the points you made.

SFC2 and it's (now) better SFC:OP sister were conceived, designed, and built to replicate SFB not the "cannon" of the Star Trek universe. Though it can is a boon to all but it's primary focus is SFB and comming as close to it as possible in a real time invironment.

SFC3 is / was designed to meet the goal of "conforming" to the TNG universe and thus the "cannon" of Star Trek. Unlike SFC2 and OP however, it is not "backward" compatible so it can  never replicate the SFB universe ... but then that's not it's point anyway.

SFC3 will never be SFC2/OP no matter how many TOS or TMP ships you put in a mod. The two come from totally different philosophies. The best you can do is actually include all "eras" of the Star Trek universe (which would be cool) ... but it still won't be SFC2 or OP.

Quote:
i am hoping with some of the new scripts that are being developed that some of the exploration will even come into the game.
`
some of us (like that guy above) hit the nail on the head when he said that there is far more to trek than just the combat. i mean, that is one of the best things about sfc (better than bc) - but in a mm game, if they could just do it like the nwn servers - and make it to where you have some RP elements which include exploring.. some of us would love the chance to really explore new worlds - or come nose to nose with an opponent out of no where  - instead of chasing them around a hex map.. or getting a distress call from a nearby sector and warping to their assistance.
`
none of those things are doable with op. (and less with sfc3 - but there are more elements which could be taken).  

OP, being focused on the universe of SFB is and should be concentraited on combat plain and simple.

See my points above to understand why.

But a good MMORPG-like setup using the SFC3 engine and a truely interactive universe is still a hope / dream of mine. I'm hopeful too that the new missions will add that interactive layer that is missing from SFC3. Now all we need is to revamp the D3 maping system and add more interaction and we're good to go.

   

[Raniz Murjuri]

ohh boy...

Has anyone read my really long posts?

Cause you all seem to be fighting with each other.. well not fighting.. but pointing out certain points of the game.

Which is clearly not my intent at all..

I dont care about the "engine" it can be redesigned, to fit a MMORPG... all you need are the basic needs of the SFB combat system.. No triggering battles.. cause once you spot the enemy.. start firing.
I'm not really trying to get rid of Dynaverse.. i'm trying to evolve past it.

simple example: do any of you play Counter strike, Halo, Planetside? EQ, Asheron's call, Dark Age of Camelot?

Now combine all of those games. into One.. and give the combat system a SFB engine, instead of clicking around a map.. you can literally fly or pilot your ship through the galaxy.. sorta like EVE online or Earth and Beyond. but with out those stupid Warp gates.. geez they irratate me.
Now when you see another Ship (in the Game mind you) it's another person.. hopefully it's not an enemy..if so combat already begun. if not an enemy.. you can slow down and chat about where you've been. what new worlds you explored. and how many enemies you killed in a 20 vs 30 battle. and you'll either have to fight the best players.. or meet them later in the same galaxy. hah.. i said best players.. excuse me i meant to say.."you'll have to fight everyone".

as far as servers go... yes they cost money... most server clusters run about 90,000 dollars, which i'm not sure if that average or a little high tech.. but it fits over 400 people on server (cluster)
If you use Darkfalls Server set up... you can fit 10k people on one server. and still be able to update your game without having to take down the server.

but if you manage to get 1000 people to play the game you just payed for the servers.
I'm not an expert on this subject.. but i can tell ya.. if you create just a 1/2 decent game.. you'll come out with 100k players.
Example: EQ.
worse example: DAoC


trust me when i say: New missions? what on the same old game? been there done that.. thanks anyways.

excuse me excitment, but... screw new missions.. Missions aren't going to keep me playing,, or totally emerse myself into the game.
Example: i was on GS SFC2 yesterday.. and RDA-Madd-Mohagg or what ever his name is.. was just trash.. err talking out his butt.. and if i still had the Lust for SFC i had 2 years ago... it would have gotten me into the game.. but i just sat there with blinking eyes, saying to myself,, "wow" what a foul mouth".

you can rebuild all the ships, missions, and planets you want... but it's still the same game.
It's still goign to have me "waiting to connect"
"waiting to disconnect"
"clicking to another hex"
and " trying not to get bored"


Final words: make this game, and you'll keep people intrested, not only by the game itself.. but by the lore people will write.. the enjoyment of killing the starbases with 40 others.. and the excitment of trying to survive in a Race vs Race War over territory. There's truely "no holds barred". and if the game gets really popular... 100:1 odds says you'll never be able to meet everyone in the game.  

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
ohh boy...

Has anyone read my really long posts?

Yes I did ... or should I say I skimmed it then went back to clarify some points.

I hear and agree with what you are saying and wish for something the same or similar. When first approched to do testing for SFC3 I was hoping that the whole hex map layout was going to be abandoned. Just recently the game E&B had started showing up (back then) and after being a part of the public beta I thought "this is what SFC3 should be like!" Alas it was not to be. We were still stuck in a 2D universe with 2D movement and a hex based, limited, strategic system.

SFC3 is a good game but what I'd REALLY like to see is a massive Star Trek mod for say Freelancer. Just do it from the ground up without the trade lanes (jump point would still be needed but it's an exceptible sacrifice) but with all the depth and expanses that whould truely make for an out standing universe. Heck I'd be more than willing to host it but I just don't have the time or the skill (though that could be corrected) to do it. There are a few working on such things but honestly I don't know where they are with it and considering the current state of Star Trek  gaming et all I don't know if it's worth pursuing.

Anyway, I'm with you brother. If only the powers that be would have just looked up from their coding screens and seen what was on the horizon ... I think SFC3 could have been THE game for the Star Trek faithful for the next 5 years. Ah well.

   

[Raniz Murjuri]

Quote:
There are a few working on such things but honestly I don't know where they are with it and considering the current state of Star Trek gaming et all I don't know if it's worth pursuing.

Yeah.. and thats the biggest obsticle, to building this game.. "Is it worth pursuing"

We need a sales pitch. or taldren wont buy into it.

I would like to hear from taldren on two points of this topic..

first: if they had the chance, would they do it?

second: Whats the biggest obsticle from thier point of view?

and then we can start hammering it from there.  

[Mr_six]

Quote:
We need a sales pitch. or taldren wont buy into it.

I think you have to aim your pitch higher up then taldren.  Activision would have to shell out all the cash to make this work.  Thats why I think its a total pipe dream to hope for a startrek based mmog anytime soon.  After reading the Star Trek Gaming Directory interview on sfc3.net  web page it looks like we have to wait for this lawsuit to be settled first before anything moves.
 

[Raniz Murjuri]

i didn't say Activision had to publish it..
there's Loop holes to get around that suit...i think

like filing a Monopoly suit... activision trying to take a whole genre and make it thiers.

dont know if that will work, but you can always look into it. beats me..

but dont count me out...

other than that.. dont look at me.. i only have an idea that works.. and if Activision wants it.. they will have to shell some cash..untie the suit deadlock.
if taldren wants it.. i'll straight up give it to them.  

[TOCXOBearslayer]

Quote:

Quote:
Lets extrapolate on this pseudo-MMOG.  What is the big downside to dynaverse?  The servers - someone has to host them, someone has to pay for the bandwidth.  What if we were able to layer a P2P/GRID style comm system over the existing code.  This isn't as hard as you would think - Given what I can gather from the info provided by NuclearWessels etal, this is how Gamespy currently works.  Once the mission is selected and the players chosen the game kicks into P2P between each gamers system.  Why not apply the same principles to a new version of the dynaverse - A P2P layer that kicks off the Gamespy routines for tactical combat.  You could use a F&E style persistent campaign, autogenerated mission scripts, Fleet command structures, economics modules, the possibilities are endless.

Just a thought    

I believe the TOC guys already do this.  

Thank you, Kroma, but it is actually STOC (Starfleet Tactical Operations Command)

www.stoc.info is where you can find our site..... there is some changes going on, but all the links you need are connected to that site.

Oh, and Raniz,

I agree.... a MMO would be awesome!!!  Though I think I would prefer it to be SFB base (due mainly to consistency in 'its canin' over the other ST games) 2D or 3D doesn't bother me either way....

The battles could be massive since you could call in allies while the battle is going on.... just thinking of it gives me shivers....  

I mean, imagine... now on the D2 & D3... you get into combat with a DN while you are floating along in a DD or something.... what is there to do?  Run... take a pot shot or two?  

In an MMO, you could engage the DN while calling in allies to help deal with it..... of course, they could do the same to you.....

I would like to see skill levels for offices like SFCI & SFCIII have....

It would be fantastic.... which is probably why Paramount & Activision wouldn't do it....