Topic: Antimatter Cruiser in old JPL Study (Read 20890 times)

Stormbringer · « **on:** November 20, 2003, 12:37:21 am »

A while ago, I posted for info on how to find out more about this ship. The Future almanac claimed this was gene's inspiration for the warp engines of the enterprise. I am posting it to fulfill my promise to do so and to see if someone like MR Hypergol would know how to find out the name of the design study and get more info on it. You might notice that if you replace the boron crystals with dilithium you have the exact scheme for powering the warp engines of the star trek series.

EDIT: Graphic link removed to preserve hosting space.

762 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2003, 08:53:16 am »

Actually Storm the dilithium is not used as a reactant. The dilithium crystal (being transparent to antimatter) is used to focus the M/A reaction into a coherent plasma stream.

The matter reactant is slush deuterium.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:23:11 am »

Noted. But in the real world the boron is used due to it's ability to sponge up high energy particles. It is used as one of several control rod substances in nuclear reactors because it "gobbles" up neutrons, etc. So in a way the boron focuses or tunes the energy of the reaction to desireable energy outputs even if it is used as a reactant; similar to dilithium's (Albeit nominally non-destructive) energy lensing role. And (IIRC) the Klingon's engine does use dilithium in a direct conversion role which would be destructive to the dilithium crystals. The Fed's version is non-destructive.

762 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:28:32 am »

I'm wondering why they wouldn't just use a straight hydrogen/anti-proton mix a la Star Trek. That way you wouldn't have to worry about neutron flux or radioactive by-products.

Corbomite · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:34:45 am »

Quote:

I'm wondering why they wouldn't just use a straight hydrogen/anti-proton mix a la Star Trek. That way you wouldn't have to worry about neutron flux or radioactive by-products.

Do you realize how expensive it is to "create" antimatter?

762 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:43:37 am »

I know it is, that's why they're saying this thing will be a while off. We were discussing the matter reactant.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:22:50 pm »

Regarding contempt of gravity. It is not easy to get out ove even the earth's paltry gravity well. Consider than we originally had to use three stage rockets like the saturn to get even a tiny capsule above it. 90 or more percent of the ships mass was fuel and motors, etc. Thr remaining miniscule amount was for the LEM and command module. IOW cargo space. So rockets are mostly fuel, tanks motors etc and can barely manage to get into orbit. This thing has a much better ratio of fuel to cargo. It is vastly faster more powerful and versatile than any conventional rocket can hope to achieve.

I'll post suggested reading later / more time.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:31:04 pm »

I don't think that is true. The anihilation produces energy across the entire spectrum. There would be induced radiation in the reaction and exhaust channel. Just as in fission. Even most types of fusion eventually induces radioactivity and degradation of the shielding in the reactor chamber. AM reactions would be even more enegetic.

762 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2003, 01:14:04 pm »

Well the process would definitely yield radioactive by-products. If an antiproton reacts with a Boron-10 nucleus, it will mutually annihilate with one proton, resulting in a Beryllium-9 nucleus. Be-9 is stable but another reaction would yield Li-8, which is radioactive (.84 second half-life, both alpha- and beta-decay). The alpha decay yields a free neutron, which could could potentially lead to more radioactive isotopes (but would probably be sucked up by the Boron). There are other possibilites I'm sure.

P.S. If any real physicists are reading this, please tell me if I am talking out of my arse!

762 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2003, 02:17:46 pm »

Well I had chili for lunch, so it might just be.

Talk about nuclear reactions...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2003, 04:03:50 pm »

Ain't that a cool looking bugger?

JMM · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2003, 06:31:55 pm »

I hope it comes with toilets? Or is that optional?

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:52:07 am »

Storm,

I spoke with my father in law last night (just retired from JPL). He wasn't able to verify anytihng for me. He did mention that their website is pretty good for finding information. Sorry, but I couldn't get any other info.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/

Stormbringer · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2003, 10:45:21 am »

thats OK. I was hoping some one would recognize it and be able to name it. If I had the name I coulddo a proper search. Descriptive searches got me no where. Search engines are not smart enough yet. I think I've already tried searches for AM propulsion design studies on JPL site. It confused the engine. Perhaps if I got the book it would have a bibliography or endnotes that name the study. I can get it used for about eight bucks.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:00:45 pm »

Toasty0; thanks for hosting this graphic for me.

Since space is valuable I don't mind if you remove the file when it is no longer convenient to host it. Just remind me so that I can delete the references to it in a timely manner. I think everyone who might have had suggestions or info has had a chance to see it by now. I've had two offers of help and search suggestions. No luck on the follow ups thus far. I guess I'll buy the book to see about bibliography or endnotes. It will also give me a chance to scan in the part about Gene using this idea for his propulsion system for the curious.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:06:38 pm »

.84 seconds? Sounds rather clean compared to elements with half lifes of 50K years or more. Perhaps not so big a problem as I initially thought. Of course, there are; in addition to induced radiation, direct particle creation in the resultant plasma which could casue tertiary radioactive elements. This is after all second only to the big bang in terms of creative and destructive potential. It is a "Little bang."

Sirgod · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2003, 07:26:43 pm »

I think I understand It know. When I first read that, I was thinking the forces of gravity where so small when the ship was in space, why bother. ButI didn't even think They where refering to It getting off the ground.

Thanks for clearing that up guys.

Stephen

Ryker · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2003, 08:57:10 am »

You guys want energy? I dont mean this poxy antimatter stuff (lol), Im talking S**t loads of energy...?

Three words- Zero Point Energy

Check this out- Im writing an essay on the subject at the moment for university:

http://www.zpower.net/zpe.htm

Stormbringer · « **Reply #24 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:01:04 am »

Yes. But consider an alpha particle is charged and thus can be easily controlled with magnetic or electrical grids. It can even be used to induce current in coils surrounding the exhaust nozzle. Neutrons have a half life of ten minutes when not bound to protons so neutrons are a short term problem also. They are harder to direct than charged particles but my understanding is that this can now be done as well using some technique or another. It was solved thanks to the SDI program in the eighties. Of course the shorter the half life the more intense the radiation compared to an equal mass of longer lived elements. Still theres no need to dump a gallon of the stuff together even if we could manage to produce that amount. I envision a trickle perhaps even intermitantly. The output thrust would build over time thus preventing the crew from becoming puddles of goo on the rear of the bridge from the G forces of a full scale reaction. Plus a trickle would be easier to dampen in directions destructive to the reactor vessel. And on top of that it would make it easier to capture power with induction coils. No if that russian scientist's in Scotland research is only replicated then we might be talking.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #25 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:54:21 am »

Ha! That is what I'm using to charge up the containment vessel and linear fusion impulse engines. Those are my APUs.
Seriously, What scheme are you proposing to cohere the fluctuating vacuum potential? Most methods I've read about suggest using charged plates or spheres moving at relativistic speed (No meagre task in itself) using the casimir effect.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #26 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:35:28 pm »

Theoretically zero point energy is limitless. However, mainstream scientists doubt we will ever be able to effectively harness it. For theoretical, technical and even philosophical reasons. Be that as it may; the theory they invoke is misapplied, Technical considerations can be overcame, and philosophy has no place in determining a hypothesis' validity. ZPE can work and some mainstream scientists are slowly and grudgingly admitting there is something to it in terms of appplication.

All that aside, zero point energy gathering schema are unlikely to equal antimatter conversion in terms of energy density at any given moment. ZPE might be harnessed to power a ships systems or even ignite fusion reactors but to suggest they can provide the thrust of an antimatter explosion is a bit of a stretch. ZPE is definitely worth looking into but propulsion will not be an application. The cohering apparatus is too fragile to be near such violent levels of energy production.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #27 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:48:42 pm »

Bathrooms are part of the standard package. We just won't film when people are in, entering or leaving the latrines. Else one fine day you might hear the following: "This is Picard taking a healthy dump. Out." Crusher: "I gotta drop a load that could choke a donkey!" (whatever that means)

Stormbringer · « **Reply #30 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:34:00 pm »

If I recall correctly, the TOS series had them bringing it aboard in special containment tanks. Further at the time of TNG they had developed a quantum process for converting ordinary matter. They still had lots of storage devoted to holding it in large quantities but they could regenerate thier own supplies over time. This is again IIRC.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #31 on:** November 24, 2003, 11:33:17 pm »

Creating an assymetrical field is as easy as varying the surface area or shape of the plates. There was a recent hubabalu generated by NASA repackaging Brown's claims on assymetrical capacitors and gaining what are essentially duplicate (and larcenous) patents on his concepts. However I though the casimir effect depended upon absolutely equal charges on the plates or spheres to even manifest the effect in regards to ZPE. If so then that kind of nerfs that idea.

Death_Merchant · « **Reply #32 on:** November 25, 2003, 06:58:32 pm »

I understand the "cool factor", but why think too seriously about this?

This is so far removed from practical engineering possibility, that it's much like the old Popular Mechanics articles of 50 years ago talking about flying cars and robot servants.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #34 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:20:50 pm »

I don't really think its *necessarily* that far off. particularly if an intensive effort were driven towards it in a similar vein to the appollo program or space station for example. Things have proceded apace since this was written in the eighties or the study was commisioned. When the SSSC was a going concern it was estimated it would produce an ounce or so of antimatter per year. Since then, laser and penning trapping has been developed, better sources of antimatter have been discovered, containment has went from humongous magnetic bottle apparatus to electrical confinement to metal hydride/ceramic ionic technology. And production and containment have always been the main technical problems. The rest of the technical problems such as long duration life support and radiation shielding have advanced as well. The remaining stuff is the same as it is for the station or shuttle and those are well under control. MHD inductive power regeneration systems are an area where the russians excell in thier research with exotic submarine tech. The actual engine is not all that different from the NERVA nuclear rocket studied long ago. If we wanted to we could have one cruising in one or two decades. And we really have something like that before we consign fragile humans to a months long trip to Mars or elsewhere. Else there could be no hope if something goes wrong a long way away from home.

Death_Merchant · « **Reply #35 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:38:31 pm »

I never said it was impossible.

I said we are no where near close to having the engineering knowledge to even begin thinking about such a ship.

Pratt&Whitney just released a PR in "Aerospace Engineering" about a ground firing of their hydrocarbon-fueled scramjet emgine. Scramjets are a concept dating back over 50 years. Bear in mind that these puppies are bolted to big-ole Cu heat sink tables to keep it all from melting down. They have quite a bit of work to do to get airborne.

I know. I work in this area (materials).

Just because someone says it's impossible does not make it so....
and just because someone can draw or conceive of something, doesn't mean it can be made....

Stormbringer · « **Reply #36 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:49:41 pm »

if the reaction took place outside the ship with a timed buffer of a substance like water in between the AM reaction and the ship. with the ship having a large shock mounted block of shielding/pressor plate. Then material science would not need need extensive advancement for that.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #38 on:** November 25, 2003, 08:58:07 pm »

ZPE via the casimir effect is slowly gaining grudging respectability in more mainstream scientific cicles. Formerly it was the stuff of fringe science almost exclusively. Now occasional acknowledgement is becoming normal but no one seems to want to make the leap of saying it is worth study as a means to produce nearly free and unlimited energy. I am watching it from time to time to see how the situation is evolving.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #39 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:37:21 am »

A while ago, I posted for info on how to find out more about this ship. The Future almanac claimed this was gene's inspiration for the warp engines of the enterprise. I am posting it to fulfill my promise to do so and to see if someone like MR Hypergol would know how to find out the name of the design study and get more info on it. You might notice that if you replace the boron crystals with dilithium you have the exact scheme for powering the warp engines of the star trek series.

EDIT: Graphic link removed to preserve hosting space.

762 · « **Reply #40 on:** November 20, 2003, 08:53:16 am »

Actually Storm the dilithium is not used as a reactant. The dilithium crystal (being transparent to antimatter) is used to focus the M/A reaction into a coherent plasma stream.

The matter reactant is slush deuterium.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #41 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:23:11 am »

Noted. But in the real world the boron is used due to it's ability to sponge up high energy particles. It is used as one of several control rod substances in nuclear reactors because it "gobbles" up neutrons, etc. So in a way the boron focuses or tunes the energy of the reaction to desireable energy outputs even if it is used as a reactant; similar to dilithium's (Albeit nominally non-destructive) energy lensing role. And (IIRC) the Klingon's engine does use dilithium in a direct conversion role which would be destructive to the dilithium crystals. The Fed's version is non-destructive.

762 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:28:32 am »

I'm wondering why they wouldn't just use a straight hydrogen/anti-proton mix a la Star Trek. That way you wouldn't have to worry about neutron flux or radioactive by-products.

762 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:43:37 am »

I know it is, that's why they're saying this thing will be a while off. We were discussing the matter reactant.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #46 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:22:50 pm »

Regarding contempt of gravity. It is not easy to get out ove even the earth's paltry gravity well. Consider than we originally had to use three stage rockets like the saturn to get even a tiny capsule above it. 90 or more percent of the ships mass was fuel and motors, etc. Thr remaining miniscule amount was for the LEM and command module. IOW cargo space. So rockets are mostly fuel, tanks motors etc and can barely manage to get into orbit. This thing has a much better ratio of fuel to cargo. It is vastly faster more powerful and versatile than any conventional rocket can hope to achieve.

I'll post suggested reading later / more time.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #47 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:31:04 pm »

I don't think that is true. The anihilation produces energy across the entire spectrum. There would be induced radiation in the reaction and exhaust channel. Just as in fission. Even most types of fusion eventually induces radioactivity and degradation of the shielding in the reactor chamber. AM reactions would be even more enegetic.

762 · « **Reply #48 on:** November 20, 2003, 01:14:04 pm »

Well the process would definitely yield radioactive by-products. If an antiproton reacts with a Boron-10 nucleus, it will mutually annihilate with one proton, resulting in a Beryllium-9 nucleus. Be-9 is stable but another reaction would yield Li-8, which is radioactive (.84 second half-life, both alpha- and beta-decay). The alpha decay yields a free neutron, which could could potentially lead to more radioactive isotopes (but would probably be sucked up by the Boron). There are other possibilites I'm sure.

P.S. If any real physicists are reading this, please tell me if I am talking out of my arse!

762 · « **Reply #50 on:** November 20, 2003, 02:17:46 pm »

Well I had chili for lunch, so it might just be.

Talk about nuclear reactions...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #51 on:** November 20, 2003, 04:03:50 pm »

Ain't that a cool looking bugger?

JMM · « **Reply #52 on:** November 20, 2003, 06:31:55 pm »

I hope it comes with toilets? Or is that optional?

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #53 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:52:07 am »

Storm,

I spoke with my father in law last night (just retired from JPL). He wasn't able to verify anytihng for me. He did mention that their website is pretty good for finding information. Sorry, but I couldn't get any other info.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/

Stormbringer · « **Reply #54 on:** November 21, 2003, 10:45:21 am »

thats OK. I was hoping some one would recognize it and be able to name it. If I had the name I coulddo a proper search. Descriptive searches got me no where. Search engines are not smart enough yet. I think I've already tried searches for AM propulsion design studies on JPL site. It confused the engine. Perhaps if I got the book it would have a bibliography or endnotes that name the study. I can get it used for about eight bucks.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #56 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:00:45 pm »

Toasty0; thanks for hosting this graphic for me.

Since space is valuable I don't mind if you remove the file when it is no longer convenient to host it. Just remind me so that I can delete the references to it in a timely manner. I think everyone who might have had suggestions or info has had a chance to see it by now. I've had two offers of help and search suggestions. No luck on the follow ups thus far. I guess I'll buy the book to see about bibliography or endnotes. It will also give me a chance to scan in the part about Gene using this idea for his propulsion system for the curious.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #57 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:06:38 pm »

.84 seconds? Sounds rather clean compared to elements with half lifes of 50K years or more. Perhaps not so big a problem as I initially thought. Of course, there are; in addition to induced radiation, direct particle creation in the resultant plasma which could casue tertiary radioactive elements. This is after all second only to the big bang in terms of creative and destructive potential. It is a "Little bang."

Sirgod · « **Reply #60 on:** November 22, 2003, 07:26:43 pm »

I think I understand It know. When I first read that, I was thinking the forces of gravity where so small when the ship was in space, why bother. ButI didn't even think They where refering to It getting off the ground.

Thanks for clearing that up guys.

Stephen

Ryker · « **Reply #62 on:** November 24, 2003, 08:57:10 am »

You guys want energy? I dont mean this poxy antimatter stuff (lol), Im talking S**t loads of energy...?

Three words- Zero Point Energy

Check this out- Im writing an essay on the subject at the moment for university:

http://www.zpower.net/zpe.htm

Stormbringer · « **Reply #63 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:01:04 am »

Yes. But consider an alpha particle is charged and thus can be easily controlled with magnetic or electrical grids. It can even be used to induce current in coils surrounding the exhaust nozzle. Neutrons have a half life of ten minutes when not bound to protons so neutrons are a short term problem also. They are harder to direct than charged particles but my understanding is that this can now be done as well using some technique or another. It was solved thanks to the SDI program in the eighties. Of course the shorter the half life the more intense the radiation compared to an equal mass of longer lived elements. Still theres no need to dump a gallon of the stuff together even if we could manage to produce that amount. I envision a trickle perhaps even intermitantly. The output thrust would build over time thus preventing the crew from becoming puddles of goo on the rear of the bridge from the G forces of a full scale reaction. Plus a trickle would be easier to dampen in directions destructive to the reactor vessel. And on top of that it would make it easier to capture power with induction coils. No if that russian scientist's in Scotland research is only replicated then we might be talking.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #64 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:54:21 am »

Ha! That is what I'm using to charge up the containment vessel and linear fusion impulse engines. Those are my APUs.
Seriously, What scheme are you proposing to cohere the fluctuating vacuum potential? Most methods I've read about suggest using charged plates or spheres moving at relativistic speed (No meagre task in itself) using the casimir effect.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #65 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:35:28 pm »

Theoretically zero point energy is limitless. However, mainstream scientists doubt we will ever be able to effectively harness it. For theoretical, technical and even philosophical reasons. Be that as it may; the theory they invoke is misapplied, Technical considerations can be overcame, and philosophy has no place in determining a hypothesis' validity. ZPE can work and some mainstream scientists are slowly and grudgingly admitting there is something to it in terms of appplication.

All that aside, zero point energy gathering schema are unlikely to equal antimatter conversion in terms of energy density at any given moment. ZPE might be harnessed to power a ships systems or even ignite fusion reactors but to suggest they can provide the thrust of an antimatter explosion is a bit of a stretch. ZPE is definitely worth looking into but propulsion will not be an application. The cohering apparatus is too fragile to be near such violent levels of energy production.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #66 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:48:42 pm »

Bathrooms are part of the standard package. We just won't film when people are in, entering or leaving the latrines. Else one fine day you might hear the following: "This is Picard taking a healthy dump. Out." Crusher: "I gotta drop a load that could choke a donkey!" (whatever that means)

Stormbringer · « **Reply #69 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:34:00 pm »

If I recall correctly, the TOS series had them bringing it aboard in special containment tanks. Further at the time of TNG they had developed a quantum process for converting ordinary matter. They still had lots of storage devoted to holding it in large quantities but they could regenerate thier own supplies over time. This is again IIRC.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #70 on:** November 24, 2003, 11:33:17 pm »

Creating an assymetrical field is as easy as varying the surface area or shape of the plates. There was a recent hubabalu generated by NASA repackaging Brown's claims on assymetrical capacitors and gaining what are essentially duplicate (and larcenous) patents on his concepts. However I though the casimir effect depended upon absolutely equal charges on the plates or spheres to even manifest the effect in regards to ZPE. If so then that kind of nerfs that idea.

Death_Merchant · « **Reply #71 on:** November 25, 2003, 06:58:32 pm »

I understand the "cool factor", but why think too seriously about this?

This is so far removed from practical engineering possibility, that it's much like the old Popular Mechanics articles of 50 years ago talking about flying cars and robot servants.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #73 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:20:50 pm »

I don't really think its *necessarily* that far off. particularly if an intensive effort were driven towards it in a similar vein to the appollo program or space station for example. Things have proceded apace since this was written in the eighties or the study was commisioned. When the SSSC was a going concern it was estimated it would produce an ounce or so of antimatter per year. Since then, laser and penning trapping has been developed, better sources of antimatter have been discovered, containment has went from humongous magnetic bottle apparatus to electrical confinement to metal hydride/ceramic ionic technology. And production and containment have always been the main technical problems. The rest of the technical problems such as long duration life support and radiation shielding have advanced as well. The remaining stuff is the same as it is for the station or shuttle and those are well under control. MHD inductive power regeneration systems are an area where the russians excell in thier research with exotic submarine tech. The actual engine is not all that different from the NERVA nuclear rocket studied long ago. If we wanted to we could have one cruising in one or two decades. And we really have something like that before we consign fragile humans to a months long trip to Mars or elsewhere. Else there could be no hope if something goes wrong a long way away from home.

Death_Merchant · « **Reply #74 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:38:31 pm »

I never said it was impossible.

I said we are no where near close to having the engineering knowledge to even begin thinking about such a ship.

Pratt&Whitney just released a PR in "Aerospace Engineering" about a ground firing of their hydrocarbon-fueled scramjet emgine. Scramjets are a concept dating back over 50 years. Bear in mind that these puppies are bolted to big-ole Cu heat sink tables to keep it all from melting down. They have quite a bit of work to do to get airborne.

I know. I work in this area (materials).

Just because someone says it's impossible does not make it so....
and just because someone can draw or conceive of something, doesn't mean it can be made....

Stormbringer · « **Reply #75 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:49:41 pm »

if the reaction took place outside the ship with a timed buffer of a substance like water in between the AM reaction and the ship. with the ship having a large shock mounted block of shielding/pressor plate. Then material science would not need need extensive advancement for that.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #77 on:** November 25, 2003, 08:58:07 pm »

ZPE via the casimir effect is slowly gaining grudging respectability in more mainstream scientific cicles. Formerly it was the stuff of fringe science almost exclusively. Now occasional acknowledgement is becoming normal but no one seems to want to make the leap of saying it is worth study as a means to produce nearly free and unlimited energy. I am watching it from time to time to see how the situation is evolving.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #78 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:37:21 am »

A while ago, I posted for info on how to find out more about this ship. The Future almanac claimed this was gene's inspiration for the warp engines of the enterprise. I am posting it to fulfill my promise to do so and to see if someone like MR Hypergol would know how to find out the name of the design study and get more info on it. You might notice that if you replace the boron crystals with dilithium you have the exact scheme for powering the warp engines of the star trek series.

EDIT: Graphic link removed to preserve hosting space.

762 · « **Reply #79 on:** November 20, 2003, 08:53:16 am »

Actually Storm the dilithium is not used as a reactant. The dilithium crystal (being transparent to antimatter) is used to focus the M/A reaction into a coherent plasma stream.

The matter reactant is slush deuterium.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #80 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:23:11 am »

Noted. But in the real world the boron is used due to it's ability to sponge up high energy particles. It is used as one of several control rod substances in nuclear reactors because it "gobbles" up neutrons, etc. So in a way the boron focuses or tunes the energy of the reaction to desireable energy outputs even if it is used as a reactant; similar to dilithium's (Albeit nominally non-destructive) energy lensing role. And (IIRC) the Klingon's engine does use dilithium in a direct conversion role which would be destructive to the dilithium crystals. The Fed's version is non-destructive.

762 · « **Reply #81 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:28:32 am »

I'm wondering why they wouldn't just use a straight hydrogen/anti-proton mix a la Star Trek. That way you wouldn't have to worry about neutron flux or radioactive by-products.

762 · « **Reply #83 on:** November 20, 2003, 09:43:37 am »

I know it is, that's why they're saying this thing will be a while off. We were discussing the matter reactant.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #85 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:22:50 pm »

Regarding contempt of gravity. It is not easy to get out ove even the earth's paltry gravity well. Consider than we originally had to use three stage rockets like the saturn to get even a tiny capsule above it. 90 or more percent of the ships mass was fuel and motors, etc. Thr remaining miniscule amount was for the LEM and command module. IOW cargo space. So rockets are mostly fuel, tanks motors etc and can barely manage to get into orbit. This thing has a much better ratio of fuel to cargo. It is vastly faster more powerful and versatile than any conventional rocket can hope to achieve.

I'll post suggested reading later / more time.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #86 on:** November 20, 2003, 12:31:04 pm »

I don't think that is true. The anihilation produces energy across the entire spectrum. There would be induced radiation in the reaction and exhaust channel. Just as in fission. Even most types of fusion eventually induces radioactivity and degradation of the shielding in the reactor chamber. AM reactions would be even more enegetic.

762 · « **Reply #87 on:** November 20, 2003, 01:14:04 pm »

Well the process would definitely yield radioactive by-products. If an antiproton reacts with a Boron-10 nucleus, it will mutually annihilate with one proton, resulting in a Beryllium-9 nucleus. Be-9 is stable but another reaction would yield Li-8, which is radioactive (.84 second half-life, both alpha- and beta-decay). The alpha decay yields a free neutron, which could could potentially lead to more radioactive isotopes (but would probably be sucked up by the Boron). There are other possibilites I'm sure.

P.S. If any real physicists are reading this, please tell me if I am talking out of my arse!

762 · « **Reply #89 on:** November 20, 2003, 02:17:46 pm »

Well I had chili for lunch, so it might just be.

Talk about nuclear reactions...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #90 on:** November 20, 2003, 04:03:50 pm »

Ain't that a cool looking bugger?

JMM · « **Reply #91 on:** November 20, 2003, 06:31:55 pm »

I hope it comes with toilets? Or is that optional?

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #92 on:** November 21, 2003, 06:52:07 am »

Storm,

I spoke with my father in law last night (just retired from JPL). He wasn't able to verify anytihng for me. He did mention that their website is pretty good for finding information. Sorry, but I couldn't get any other info.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/

Stormbringer · « **Reply #93 on:** November 21, 2003, 10:45:21 am »

thats OK. I was hoping some one would recognize it and be able to name it. If I had the name I coulddo a proper search. Descriptive searches got me no where. Search engines are not smart enough yet. I think I've already tried searches for AM propulsion design studies on JPL site. It confused the engine. Perhaps if I got the book it would have a bibliography or endnotes that name the study. I can get it used for about eight bucks.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #95 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:00:45 pm »

Toasty0; thanks for hosting this graphic for me.

Since space is valuable I don't mind if you remove the file when it is no longer convenient to host it. Just remind me so that I can delete the references to it in a timely manner. I think everyone who might have had suggestions or info has had a chance to see it by now. I've had two offers of help and search suggestions. No luck on the follow ups thus far. I guess I'll buy the book to see about bibliography or endnotes. It will also give me a chance to scan in the part about Gene using this idea for his propulsion system for the curious.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #96 on:** November 22, 2003, 05:06:38 pm »

.84 seconds? Sounds rather clean compared to elements with half lifes of 50K years or more. Perhaps not so big a problem as I initially thought. Of course, there are; in addition to induced radiation, direct particle creation in the resultant plasma which could casue tertiary radioactive elements. This is after all second only to the big bang in terms of creative and destructive potential. It is a "Little bang."

Sirgod · « **Reply #99 on:** November 22, 2003, 07:26:43 pm »

I think I understand It know. When I first read that, I was thinking the forces of gravity where so small when the ship was in space, why bother. ButI didn't even think They where refering to It getting off the ground.

Thanks for clearing that up guys.

Stephen

Ryker · « **Reply #101 on:** November 24, 2003, 08:57:10 am »

You guys want energy? I dont mean this poxy antimatter stuff (lol), Im talking S**t loads of energy...?

Three words- Zero Point Energy

Check this out- Im writing an essay on the subject at the moment for university:

http://www.zpower.net/zpe.htm

Stormbringer · « **Reply #102 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:01:04 am »

Yes. But consider an alpha particle is charged and thus can be easily controlled with magnetic or electrical grids. It can even be used to induce current in coils surrounding the exhaust nozzle. Neutrons have a half life of ten minutes when not bound to protons so neutrons are a short term problem also. They are harder to direct than charged particles but my understanding is that this can now be done as well using some technique or another. It was solved thanks to the SDI program in the eighties. Of course the shorter the half life the more intense the radiation compared to an equal mass of longer lived elements. Still theres no need to dump a gallon of the stuff together even if we could manage to produce that amount. I envision a trickle perhaps even intermitantly. The output thrust would build over time thus preventing the crew from becoming puddles of goo on the rear of the bridge from the G forces of a full scale reaction. Plus a trickle would be easier to dampen in directions destructive to the reactor vessel. And on top of that it would make it easier to capture power with induction coils. No if that russian scientist's in Scotland research is only replicated then we might be talking.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #103 on:** November 24, 2003, 09:54:21 am »

Ha! That is what I'm using to charge up the containment vessel and linear fusion impulse engines. Those are my APUs.
Seriously, What scheme are you proposing to cohere the fluctuating vacuum potential? Most methods I've read about suggest using charged plates or spheres moving at relativistic speed (No meagre task in itself) using the casimir effect.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #104 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:35:28 pm »

Theoretically zero point energy is limitless. However, mainstream scientists doubt we will ever be able to effectively harness it. For theoretical, technical and even philosophical reasons. Be that as it may; the theory they invoke is misapplied, Technical considerations can be overcame, and philosophy has no place in determining a hypothesis' validity. ZPE can work and some mainstream scientists are slowly and grudgingly admitting there is something to it in terms of appplication.

All that aside, zero point energy gathering schema are unlikely to equal antimatter conversion in terms of energy density at any given moment. ZPE might be harnessed to power a ships systems or even ignite fusion reactors but to suggest they can provide the thrust of an antimatter explosion is a bit of a stretch. ZPE is definitely worth looking into but propulsion will not be an application. The cohering apparatus is too fragile to be near such violent levels of energy production.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #105 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:48:42 pm »

Bathrooms are part of the standard package. We just won't film when people are in, entering or leaving the latrines. Else one fine day you might hear the following: "This is Picard taking a healthy dump. Out." Crusher: "I gotta drop a load that could choke a donkey!" (whatever that means)

Stormbringer · « **Reply #108 on:** November 24, 2003, 10:34:00 pm »

If I recall correctly, the TOS series had them bringing it aboard in special containment tanks. Further at the time of TNG they had developed a quantum process for converting ordinary matter. They still had lots of storage devoted to holding it in large quantities but they could regenerate thier own supplies over time. This is again IIRC.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #109 on:** November 24, 2003, 11:33:17 pm »

Creating an assymetrical field is as easy as varying the surface area or shape of the plates. There was a recent hubabalu generated by NASA repackaging Brown's claims on assymetrical capacitors and gaining what are essentially duplicate (and larcenous) patents on his concepts. However I though the casimir effect depended upon absolutely equal charges on the plates or spheres to even manifest the effect in regards to ZPE. If so then that kind of nerfs that idea.

Death_Merchant · « **Reply #110 on:** November 25, 2003, 06:58:32 pm »

I understand the "cool factor", but why think too seriously about this?

This is so far removed from practical engineering possibility, that it's much like the old Popular Mechanics articles of 50 years ago talking about flying cars and robot servants.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #112 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:20:50 pm »

I don't really think its *necessarily* that far off. particularly if an intensive effort were driven towards it in a similar vein to the appollo program or space station for example. Things have proceded apace since this was written in the eighties or the study was commisioned. When the SSSC was a going concern it was estimated it would produce an ounce or so of antimatter per year. Since then, laser and penning trapping has been developed, better sources of antimatter have been discovered, containment has went from humongous magnetic bottle apparatus to electrical confinement to metal hydride/ceramic ionic technology. And production and containment have always been the main technical problems. The rest of the technical problems such as long duration life support and radiation shielding have advanced as well. The remaining stuff is the same as it is for the station or shuttle and those are well under control. MHD inductive power regeneration systems are an area where the russians excell in thier research with exotic submarine tech. The actual engine is not all that different from the NERVA nuclear rocket studied long ago. If we wanted to we could have one cruising in one or two decades. And we really have something like that before we consign fragile humans to a months long trip to Mars or elsewhere. Else there could be no hope if something goes wrong a long way away from home.

Death_Merchant · « **Reply #113 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:38:31 pm »

I never said it was impossible.

I said we are no where near close to having the engineering knowledge to even begin thinking about such a ship.

Pratt&Whitney just released a PR in "Aerospace Engineering" about a ground firing of their hydrocarbon-fueled scramjet emgine. Scramjets are a concept dating back over 50 years. Bear in mind that these puppies are bolted to big-ole Cu heat sink tables to keep it all from melting down. They have quite a bit of work to do to get airborne.

I know. I work in this area (materials).

Just because someone says it's impossible does not make it so....
and just because someone can draw or conceive of something, doesn't mean it can be made....

Stormbringer · « **Reply #114 on:** November 25, 2003, 07:49:41 pm »

if the reaction took place outside the ship with a timed buffer of a substance like water in between the AM reaction and the ship. with the ship having a large shock mounted block of shielding/pressor plate. Then material science would not need need extensive advancement for that.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #116 on:** November 25, 2003, 08:58:07 pm »

ZPE via the casimir effect is slowly gaining grudging respectability in more mainstream scientific cicles. Formerly it was the stuff of fringe science almost exclusively. Now occasional acknowledgement is becoming normal but no one seems to want to make the leap of saying it is worth study as a means to produce nearly free and unlimited energy. I am watching it from time to time to see how the situation is evolving.

News:

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Topic: Antimatter Cruiser in old JPL Study (Read 20890 times)