Topic: On Hull strength  (Read 12498 times)

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Rod O'neal

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2003, 04:08:32 am »
Quote:

That reminds me to ask:

On top of everything else i've asked (web rules, andromedian cheeze weapon stories) What conditions have to be satisfied for a Hit to a ship to destroy crew and/or marines?  




  For every 10pts. of internal damage 1 crew unit (CU) & 1 boarding party (BP) are killed. Except that the 1st 4 BP casualties are ignored.
When a shuttle bay box is destroyed the deck crew (DC) in that box is also killed along with the casualties above.
EXAMPLE: Let's go back to the poor schlub you scored the 100pts, of plasma damage on earlier. 60pts. were internal damage. Let's say that while rolling for damage allocation you hit 2 shuttle boxes. OK, 60 internals = 6 CUs killed. For every 10 internals you also kill 1 BP excluding the 1st 4. So 6 - 4 =2 BPs killed. From now on a BP will be killed for every 10 internals. You only get the exclusion for the 1st 4 BP casualties. Also 2 DCs were killed when the shuttle boxes were destroyed.
Just to complicate things In SFB your DCs are used to prepare shuttles for special missions. ie, Scatter Packs (SP), Suicide Shuttles (SS), etc. Up to 2 DCs at a time can be used to prepare a shuttle for special missions to speed up the action. You can apply the damage to the boxes of your choice. If you had pulled 2 DCs from other shuttles to help prepare, let's say, 2 SPs you could apply the damage to the two boxes you had removed the DCs from and, in this example, you wouldn't have the 2 DC casualties. Your opponent would also know that you were doing something special with your shuttles As an alternative, you could take the damage to one box that didn't have a DC in it and one of the boxes that you were preparing a shuttle in. This would conceal the fact that you are doing anything special with your shuttles.
The whole point of crew units is that you need a certain # of crew members to operate the ship. Most require 4 CUs minimum. If you have less than that the ship is considered "uncontrolled". You can still operate the ship, but with a whole bunch of limitations. Your ability to target ships & fire weapons, use EW, and maneuvering are all drastically reduced, or in some instances eliminated.
It sounds to me like you probably have enough interest in the rules to enjoy the game. You should try to find someone who plays SFB and have them teach it to you. SFB players are ALWAYS happy to recruit new players. If I lived near you I'd be knocking on your door, my milk crates full of SFB stuff in hand saying, "So, you want to know why Andros are so bad huh?'          

Maxillius

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Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2003, 02:22:11 pm »
 I just wish I could find EVERYTHING so I could compile it into a workable model for GaW...    

Rod O'neal

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2003, 03:03:42 pm »
Quote:

 I just wish I could find EVERYTHING so I could compile it into a workable model for GaW...    




I'm not sure what you mean? All of the SFB rules are available. What we need is a game engine and people with the programming skills and desire to do it.

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2003, 07:51:15 pm »
Quote:


It sounds to me like you probably have enough interest in the rules to enjoy the game. You should try to find someone who plays SFB and have them teach it to you. SFB players are ALWAYS happy to recruit new players. If I lived near you I'd be knocking on your door, my milk crates full of SFB stuff in hand saying, "So, you want to know why Andros are so bad huh?'          




And several sound whuppin's later, I'd go, "Oh, *THAT'S* why.  That's the cheeziest race to grace a strategy game EVER.  Yar."

I still don't understand webcasting very well.  I know it's got a great and accurate direct fire mode, it blocks line of site, and 'snares' missles and plasma.  I still don't really have a grasp of it though (or don't think I do).

I'm also wondering if gorn plasma snares in OP would work as an viable alternative, since so many peeps are trying to get andros and tholians in there somewhere.  They SOUND similar...

Apparently paying lots of attention to SFB,

Holocat.

Rod O'neal

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2003, 09:12:39 pm »
Quote:

Quote:




I'm also wondering if gorn plasma snares in OP would work as an viable alternative, since so many peeps are trying to get andros and tholians in there somewhere.  They SOUND similar...

Apparently paying lots of attention to SFB,

Holocat.  




Well, let's compare plasma snares to web
Differences: Plasma is nowhere as good a defensive weapon as web, it's seeking instead of direct fire, arms much more slowly, and can be defensed by phasers and WW. It also has a much higher "crunch factor",ie; More potential damage in one shot, and uses less energy per turn.
Similarities; It can effect your maneuver, mitigate damage as you use phasers on it instead of your enemy, and of course, is a great offensive weapon. Since it's the only weapon in the game that can cause you to slow down, it's similar in that aspect also.
Not very similar, overall. Especially when used on a fixed location, like a base. A base surrounded by layers of web takes a whole fleet of ships to overcome. What is called "The 3 Layered Wedding Cake" is the standard deployment of web around a base. As it's name implies, it's 3 layers of web that is attached to asteroids at the corners to support it. The BPV value of it is 472pts. Just to give you an idea of how good it is defensively. With that said, it doesn't mean that a race with plasma snares and disruptors, the other heavy weapon the Tholians use in our galaxy, doesn't make for an interesting dynamic in battle! I have spec'd out ships in OP that are exactly what you're suggesting and they are fun to play. The same specs also make an interesting combo for the Breen, if you're an TNG fan. Tholian players though, wouldn't be satisfied with plasma snares instead of web. Just like a PF isn't an Andromedan Sat-Ship, and a cloak isn't a Displacement Device, unfortunately  



   

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2003, 03:25:11 am »
To tell you the truth, i've been converted by this game.

I used to like TNG et all more, before I got SFC and started learning about SFB.

after I got SFC, I kinda 'connected' with the TMP era ships more;  They seem more elegant, somehow.

Kinda like a steam locomotive and a diesel one;  The new diesel ones are sleak, and powerful, but there's just an undefinable *something*  In the brass and iron of a steam locomotive.

Like Aircraft warfare, WW I Iron battleships and 18th century naval combat.  Modern warfare is effecient, but nothing really brings out a, shall we say, truely naval spirit in modern combat, like TMP/SFC style fighting.  SFC and the TMP counterpart have a distinctly naval "Thundering guns of the 42 fleet" feel to them, right from the small but lethal plucky DDs to the massively proud and arrogant BBs.

Perhaps I like TMP more now because of the SFB part of SFC:  The feeling of a cunningness and ablity but vulnerablity in in DDs FFs and LCs, Perhaps fighting desperatly in my F-DD against a trio of Klingons in a border skirmish, or nervously starting at every little change in music tempo whilst inside a nebula, The combination of a fertile ground for imagination and the DEEP tatical roots of SFB hooked me deep.  You FEEL fast and fragile in an FF, you feel well nigh invincible in a BB, and as slow as a bloated horta on anestestizine.  Whether squinting into a suns harsh glare, nervously switching cameras in a asteroid field, or the awe at the first time of seeing the city world in OP, orbiting into the night zone where a hundred billion souls light up the surface, the FEEL of SFC has endeared me far more towards the TMP era (and SFB) than TNG.

Come to think of it, with SFC I feel that TMP has more character now, something for everybody;  From fast and furious FFs, to the dangerous and delicate DDs, the stalwart CCs, and the massive and arrogant DNs and BBs I find something I don't see in any trek show;  A fleet with diversity and character, and battles won by wits and tatical ablity rather than technobabble a la deus ex machina.  

The game tugs on my sense of wanderlust.  An underscovered country so to speak, full of beauty, wonder, and the most perilous of danger.

I've played alot of other tatical games, all the common ones like starcraft, Command and conquer, tankrus, star control and the like.  Though all were good in their own right, they all have the *feel* of arcade games;  button mashers.

Other games, such as Age of Sail 2: Privateer's Bounty have that elusive missing link that I so dearly desire in games;  That feel of wonder, of... what should it be called... let's say 'engrossing fantasy.'  The similarities of AoSII:PB and SFC are astounding;  If one were to model water and sky instead of space, show ships of seas instead of stars, it would disguise itself quite readily.

Although it's too late, to make a long story short I should say I like TMP much better than TNG, cheifly because of SFC and SFB.

Please excuse the long, spammy post.  Any implied mentioning of TNG versus TMP gets me thinking about this, and I suppose I couldn't just let it lie this time.

Aaaaanyway, I was thinking along the line of "If one can't create new weapons, there might be a way to hack the old ones INTO permuted versions of themselves and make them suitable for use as new weapons.

You peeps still haven't told me what happens when a ship runs into a web.

From The Federation Destroyer "New Horizons,"

Holocat.


 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2003, 03:56:41 am by Holocat »

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2003, 06:34:13 am »
Remember the spawning wormholes in one of the EAW or SFC I missions? That was a terrain sized feature showing up well after the scenario had started. That should be modifiable into a Tholian Web with a little work. Just a matter of working the trigger so it ( the modified wormhole or whatever) appears after an (altered) weapon is fired or some other condition is met by the Tholian player.

* Of course this solution would seem to depend entirely on the script level, I think...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2003, 06:38:06 am by Stormbringer1701 »

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2003, 07:32:32 am »
Speaking from a novice programmer's perspective, you're gonna need Scotty for that level of jury rig.

That DOES give me an idea though...  Black holes attract things;  If they could be made to not utterly destroy a ship on contact, but hold it there for a period of time... and have HP (destroyable)... hmmm?

Webs are that BIG?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2003, 07:36:42 am by Holocat »

Rod O'neal

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2003, 11:55:12 am »
Wow! That's got to be the most amazing post I've ever read
Actually, SFB was based on a Naval combat game that Steve Cole used to play. I wish I could remember the name right now. You've really caught the feeling of the game from SFC. Smart Fella', you are

So, what happens when you run into web?
First, a little description of web and the devices to deploy it etc.
Web Generator: If you saw the TOS episode with the Tholian, this is what the Tholian ships were doing when they were trapping the Enterprise.  Web laid by a generator must be anchored at both ends to some odject. Two ships can lay it, like in the show, or 1 ship can lay it anchored to a fixed object. An asteroid, for example.
Web Caster: An advanced device that allows Tholians to "cast" web at great distances from the ship. It also has a direct fire mode, the "web fist". The Tholians that first arrived in our galaxy didn't have web casters. It was lost technology. Later, when the Neo-Tholians arrived, their ships still had Web Casters on them. The Web Caster can generate "free standing" web, it doesn't need to be anchored, up to 5 hexes in length. Maximum range is 30.
Snare: A refit to the Web Generator that allowed Tholian ships to generate 1 or 2 hexes of free standing web to the left or right side of the ship.
Now, it's been a while since I've played. I'm working from "distant memories". I might make some errors here, but it'll give you the basic idea. You'll have to forgive me for not taking the time to look up all the rules. Web can have a strength from 0 to 35, depending on how much power you reinforce it with, the era, and the device used to generate it. When a ship, or seeking weapon runs into a web it "stops" until it's generated enough movement pts. in a 32 impulse period (1 turn in game terms) to overcome the strength of the web. So, if a ship/whatever is moving slower than the strength of the web, it'll never penetrate it. If the ship/seeking weapon is traveling fast enough and the web is of sufficient strength it'll be damaged. If a ship is moving at a speed of 12 or more and encounters web with a strebgth of 12 or more it rolls for breakdown, just like an HET, including their breakdown bonus. Each pt. of deceleration above 12 causes 1 pt. of damage to the facing shield. Drones and shuttles take 1pt of damage for each pt of deceleration over 20. A fast moving type1 drone hitting a web of strength 24 or more would be destroyed. Plasma torps are trapped and lose strength just like they were moving.
   

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: On Hull strength
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2003, 11:47:25 pm »
Woah, now I see why web rules are so hard to implement.

1.  Early era webs are essentially 'lines' drawn on the map, between two ships or a ship and a stationary object;  There's nothing I can see that currently emulates this (perhaps the map boundary?)

2.  The manner in which a web is overcome is speed, rather than weapons fire;  Now, if it can be programmed in a manner such that touching something like a black hole wouldn't blow you up, it COULD keep you there until you exceed a certian speed.  Making the effect very local wouldn't be too much of a problem either from what I assume.  Making the effect dissipate after someone has 'broken' this effect is much more difficult though.

3.  the webs have a area/volume;  No weapon has this as a property, but planets and asteroids do;  From what firesoul's told me however this is probably harder to program than it appears.

4. webs are variable strength:  arg.

5. webs are persistant special objects:  arg.

The list can go on.  Source is really needed before something like this can be implemented, and will have impact on gameplay, particularly problems I see in pvp gameplay, as these webs are persistant objects, and a field littered with persistant objects creates lag.

Eliminate all but four gun arcs (45-60 degrees to the left, right, forward and rear) and replace the <insert trek babble here> armour with wooden ships and iron men, and you may as well all say "A yar har har and a bottle o' rum."  The naval feel of SFC (and apparently it's parent, SFB) is very endearing.  

Yar har har and a can of cat treats,

Holocat.