Topic: Wat do you think should happen...American Football fans?

[Dash Jones]

Okay, hoping links to Yahoo still work...

Story 1

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031114/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_jim_litke&e=19&ncid=

Quote:


Sports - College
 
Why Notre Dame Is Looking at a Safety Net
Thu Nov 13, 7:33 PM ET  

By JIM LITKE, AP Sports Columnist

Going it alone is never easy.

   

So it's hard to blame Notre Dame for making another round of inquiries about tying its future to this conference or that. Given the shifting alliances and cutthroat deals being cut in college football, the people in charge at South Bend would be irresponsible not to take a long look.


The security that a move to the ACC or Big Ten would bring is tempting. There is strength in numbers ? a valuable commodity when it's time to sit across the bargaining table from the TV networks. The money would still be good and the headaches considerably fewer.


But here's the catch: It would also drain most of the magic out of one of the few remaining magical programs in sports.


Independence is what made the Irish. At the start of the last century, Notre Dame became the focal point for a country fast filling up with immigrants and just beginning to fall in love with sports.


The Irish rode the trains to both coasts and stopped off at any point in between. They might be in Yankee Stadium one weekend, Soldier Field the next, and the Coliseum the weekend after. In the days before television, a cheap ticket and a subway ride ? hence "subway alumni" ? was usually all it took to cheer, or boo, the Irish in person.


And for all the things that are different at the start of this century, it would be a shame if Notre Dame lowered its profile now.


In 1999, when talk of joining the Big Ten actually was put to a vote of the university's board of trustees, the late Dan Devine was asked how he'd cast his ballot if he had one.


Devine had coached the Irish for five seasons, winning the national championship in 1977. Nobody knew better what made Notre Dame special, or how tough it was to keep it that way.


"When you grow up playing sports, you love the idea that a team would go any place and play anybody at any time. That was what Notre Dame always stood for," he said. "I don't think it should change now."


Nobody at Notre Dame is saying that it's about to change now, either. In a statement Wednesday, athletic director Kevin White said there were no plans to change a thing. "However," he added, "we are continuing to monitor the landscape."


And anybody looking closely has reason to be nervous.


Conferences are devouring each other at a furious pace. As a result, the next time some old rivals meet will be in a court instead of on a football field.


What the conferences are doing is positioning themselves for the end of the 2005 season, when the TV deal that gives the Bowl Championship Series a chokehold on the lucrative part of college football's postseason is up. So is the exclusive, even more lucrative TV deal Notre Dame struck with NBC.


"In my heart of hearts," Gene Corrigan said, "I'd like to see them stay the way they've been. But I'm not sure that things haven't changed significantly enough that even a place like Notre Dame needs to look at things in a different light."


Corrigan has a better perspective on Notre Dame's dilemma than almost anybody else. He used to be the athletic director there, before becoming commissioner of the ACC and president of the NCAA (news - web sites) from 1995-97. Corrigan knows how much clout Notre Dame still carries. What no one knows is how long it will last.


Last year, though few noticed it and even fewer mentioned it, Notre Dame lost its vote as a member of the BCS. The Irish no longer carried as much weight as the six major conferences that are also BCS members.

   



Practically, it made no difference. The Irish still get special consideration from the poll voters when they're good ? and sometimes, even when they're not. Their strength of schedule always gives them a chance to contend for the national championship, and they get bowl invitations just because of the size of the traveling party.

Yet Notre Dame is spending more and more every year to hold on to its independence. Soon, even the Irish will have to take out a mortgage.

When a new TV deal is struck, nothing short of a playoff will break the major conferences' grip on the national championship. And some of those conferences are still smarting over Notre Dame having its own TV network. The price of a seat at that table is only going to go up.

Two big college football independents chose the conference route a decade ago. Florida State joined the ACC and has used it as a launching pad to contend for the national championship every year.

Penn State slipped comfortably into the Big Ten. The move has benefited both parties, but after some initial success in the conference, the Nittany Lions haven't jumped back onto the national stage since.

What made Notre Dame football the thrilling high-wire act it became ? and remains ? was that the Irish never used a net. It never required more nerve than now.

Notre Dame also has provided so many of the game's best moments that it says nothing good about the state of the sport that the school has started pricing safety nets now.

___
 

But what type of maneuvering...here's an example...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031115/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_bcs_future&e=18&ncid=

Quote:


Utah Threatens College Bowl Investigation
Sat Nov 15, 3:26 PM ET  

By JOSH DUBOW, AP Football Writer

If the leaders of the Bowl Championship Series don't come to a resolution with the system's critics at a meeting Sunday, Utah's attorney general might call for an antitrust investigation.

   

Mark Shurtleff sent a letter Thursday to New York's attorney general, Elliott Spitzer, the chairman of the Antitrust Committee of the National Association of Attorneys General, criticizing the postseason system in major college football.


Leaders from the six conferences that started the BCS in 1998 will meet Sunday in New Orleans with representatives of the five Division I-A conferences that are trying to improve their access to the nation's most lucrative bowl games.


"I am glad to see that both the presidents of the BCS and non-BCS schools are committed to resolving this situation fairly. I look forward to the outcome of the presidents' meeting," Shurtleff wrote in the letter, obtained by The Associated Press.


"If a resolution does not emerge from that meeting, I will consider formally requesting that the Antitrust Committee ... open an investigation to examine whether or not competition is restrained and consumers are harmed under the current BCS arrangement."


Details of the letter were first reported Saturday by The New York Times.


Members of the BCS Presidential Oversight Committee were not immediately available for comment, but in the past have said that the system does not violate antitrust laws because it is open to all Division I-A school through two at-large berths.


Shurtleff represents a state that is home to three schools ? BYU, Utah and Utah State ? that are on the outside of the BCS. Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, a BYU graduate, was outspoken in his criticism of the system at a Senate hearing last month.


Questions about access to the BCS have been a big issue in college football since the summer, when Tulane president Scott Cowen started the Coalition for Athletics Reform in an effort to change the system.


The two sides met in September in Chicago and are expected to exchange ideas Sunday. The current BCS contract expires after the 2006 bowls and negotiations will begin next year on a new system.


Created in 1998 by the six most powerful conferences, the BCS guarantees the champions of those leagues ? the Big East, ACC, SEC, Big 12, Big Ten and Pac-10 ? will play in one of the four most lucrative postseason bowl games, leaving only two at-large berths.


One of those bowls pits the top two teams in the BCS standings in a championship game, which will be the Sugar Bowl this season. The Orange, Fiesta and Rose bowls host the other games.


Smaller schools complain that the BCS makes it impossible for them to win the national championship and puts them at a financial and recruiting disadvantage.


The BCS bowls generate more than $110 million a year for the big conferences. The BCS gives about $6 million a year to smaller conferences.


However, in the 20 years before the BCS started, only one school other than independent Notre Dame that's not currently in the six conferences played in one of those four bowls.

What do you think should be done?

[Harlax]

Two words.

Sore losers.

Why is the much of the impetus for this coming from Utah.  Brigham Young University.  Has aspirations to the big time.  Everytime they are on the threshold they get spanked.  When I was in college they had a team that finished the regular season undefeated and played my school, Indiana University, in the Holiday Bowl.  They were ranked ninth and indignant about it.  "Undefeated, Untied, Under Rated" proclaimed banners hanging in the stadium.  Well they lost to a middle of the pack Big Ten school.

Three words.

Delusions of grandeur.


OK, so college football ceased to be an amateur sport years ago.  OK, big money distorts and corrupts.  But don't tell me this is about "fairness."  Its just about another nose trying to get into the trough.

[Rondo_GE]

The times, they are a changin....  

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

Well, if they are unhappy about it, why don't they form their own Bowl Conference and make their own bowl games for their divisions?

[S'Raek]

I think a couple of things are going on here.  In relation to Notre Dame they better seriously improve their program before their contract with NBC is up in 2005.  Do you think anyone will pay big money to watch a team with the talent and record that the Irish do this year?  No way!  On a personal note I find the special treatment that ND gets to be totally amazing.  They are used to getting what they want and not having to give up anything to get it.  They use the Big East for basketball (and other sports I think) but don't really put anything back into it with football, which is where the big money is in college sports.  If they go to a bowl game they get to keep all the money and not spread it around like a conference team has to do.  But I think those times are gone.  

As far as the BCS goes, I think it is better than what we had before.  But it is also imperfect.  Take a look at the ESPN and AP polls.  (Since I am an OSU fan I will use them as an example.)  Earlier this year the Buckeyes dropped in the polls after winning games, because other teams also won against teams that people assumed were better than the teams that OSU beat.  But these teams, ND and Auburn as examples, really turned out to be not that good and therefore the teams that beat them really shouldn't have gotten somekind of bonus from the pollsters.  But now that it is later in the year and several teams are tied with one loss it is impossible for OSU to move up in the polls again, even though they are beating teams that are better than the other ranked teams.  (USC beats AZ by 45, which looks good on paper.  Until you realize that AZ sucks this year.  OSU barely beats Purdue, which was ranked 10 in the nation.  Which is more impressive?)  Now I realize that I am rather biased towards the Buckeyes, but try and see the systematic problem that I'm pointing out and not just the specific example that I used.  (I do think the USC has a good team BTW.)  

The BCS is set up to try and find a more objective way of determining who are the two best teams in the nation.  Does it work?  Yes, I think so.  Could it be better?  Definitely.  Below I will quote an example of another system that someone else used on one of the OSU message boards that I visit.  It isn't my idea so I take no credit and I'm sure it isn't perfect either.  

Quote:

How it works: Teams are awarded 10 points (in my system) for each victory over a team in each of the BCS conferences; 8 points for victories over all other div. 1a teams, such as MAC, Big West, Sun Belt, Conf USA, etc.
Victories over anything less than a div. 1a opponent are worth 5 points.

Example: Ohio State accumulates 96 points for their 10 victories. More points are accumulated on a second level where Ohio State earns the points that each of their defeated opponents earned. This is where schedule strength plays a part. For example, Ohio State gets only 15 more points for beating Indiana, who's 2 victories came over a div.1aa (5pts) and PSU (10pts).
Washington has 5 victories, 4 over BCS teams and one over a non-BCS eligible div. 1a team, with a total of 48 points. Purdue has 8 victories over BCS eligible teams, adding another 80 points to Ohio State's total.

This continues on with each team Ohio State has defeated giving Ohio State a total of 628 points. That total is then divided by the number of games Ohio State has played, being 11, which averages out to 57.09.

I used this formula for OSU, Mich, Miami, VaTech, OK, LSU, USC, and FSU, Tenn, WSU, TCU, GA, FLA, and TX.

Here's my standings after last Saturday.

                                BCS rank        AP        ESPN/coaches

1. Oklahoma - 58.55         1                1        1
2. OSU - 57.09                2                4        4
3. USC - 47.50                3                2        2
4. FSU - 45.27                11                11        10
5. Tenn - 45.00                7                9        11
6. Miami - 44.80                12                13.5        13
7. Mich - 44.09                9                5        5
8. WSU - 42.73                10                8        8
9. TCU - 42.40                8                10        9
10.LSU - 42.20                 4                3        3
11.GA - 42.00                6                6        6
12.FLA - 40.81                13                13.5        14
13.Vtech - 39.40                17                12        12
14.TX - 39.36                5                7        7

And don't get me started on the so-called mid-major schools like TCU.  They have played the 112th hardest schedule out of something like 119.  Any other team in the top 25 would go undefeated with that schedule also.  But they will get their bowl game and get blown out and then people will realize that this is all a bunch of hooey and only driven by the mid-major schools wanting to get a bigger piece of the pie.  

Sorry if this is too long!



 

[Dash Jones]

Okay, hoping links to Yahoo still work...

Story 1

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031114/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_jim_litke&e=19&ncid=

Quote:


Sports - College
 
Why Notre Dame Is Looking at a Safety Net
Thu Nov 13, 7:33 PM ET  

By JIM LITKE, AP Sports Columnist

Going it alone is never easy.

   

So it's hard to blame Notre Dame for making another round of inquiries about tying its future to this conference or that. Given the shifting alliances and cutthroat deals being cut in college football, the people in charge at South Bend would be irresponsible not to take a long look.


The security that a move to the ACC or Big Ten would bring is tempting. There is strength in numbers ? a valuable commodity when it's time to sit across the bargaining table from the TV networks. The money would still be good and the headaches considerably fewer.


But here's the catch: It would also drain most of the magic out of one of the few remaining magical programs in sports.


Independence is what made the Irish. At the start of the last century, Notre Dame became the focal point for a country fast filling up with immigrants and just beginning to fall in love with sports.


The Irish rode the trains to both coasts and stopped off at any point in between. They might be in Yankee Stadium one weekend, Soldier Field the next, and the Coliseum the weekend after. In the days before television, a cheap ticket and a subway ride ? hence "subway alumni" ? was usually all it took to cheer, or boo, the Irish in person.


And for all the things that are different at the start of this century, it would be a shame if Notre Dame lowered its profile now.


In 1999, when talk of joining the Big Ten actually was put to a vote of the university's board of trustees, the late Dan Devine was asked how he'd cast his ballot if he had one.


Devine had coached the Irish for five seasons, winning the national championship in 1977. Nobody knew better what made Notre Dame special, or how tough it was to keep it that way.


"When you grow up playing sports, you love the idea that a team would go any place and play anybody at any time. That was what Notre Dame always stood for," he said. "I don't think it should change now."


Nobody at Notre Dame is saying that it's about to change now, either. In a statement Wednesday, athletic director Kevin White said there were no plans to change a thing. "However," he added, "we are continuing to monitor the landscape."


And anybody looking closely has reason to be nervous.


Conferences are devouring each other at a furious pace. As a result, the next time some old rivals meet will be in a court instead of on a football field.


What the conferences are doing is positioning themselves for the end of the 2005 season, when the TV deal that gives the Bowl Championship Series a chokehold on the lucrative part of college football's postseason is up. So is the exclusive, even more lucrative TV deal Notre Dame struck with NBC.


"In my heart of hearts," Gene Corrigan said, "I'd like to see them stay the way they've been. But I'm not sure that things haven't changed significantly enough that even a place like Notre Dame needs to look at things in a different light."


Corrigan has a better perspective on Notre Dame's dilemma than almost anybody else. He used to be the athletic director there, before becoming commissioner of the ACC and president of the NCAA (news - web sites) from 1995-97. Corrigan knows how much clout Notre Dame still carries. What no one knows is how long it will last.


Last year, though few noticed it and even fewer mentioned it, Notre Dame lost its vote as a member of the BCS. The Irish no longer carried as much weight as the six major conferences that are also BCS members.

   



Practically, it made no difference. The Irish still get special consideration from the poll voters when they're good ? and sometimes, even when they're not. Their strength of schedule always gives them a chance to contend for the national championship, and they get bowl invitations just because of the size of the traveling party.

Yet Notre Dame is spending more and more every year to hold on to its independence. Soon, even the Irish will have to take out a mortgage.

When a new TV deal is struck, nothing short of a playoff will break the major conferences' grip on the national championship. And some of those conferences are still smarting over Notre Dame having its own TV network. The price of a seat at that table is only going to go up.

Two big college football independents chose the conference route a decade ago. Florida State joined the ACC and has used it as a launching pad to contend for the national championship every year.

Penn State slipped comfortably into the Big Ten. The move has benefited both parties, but after some initial success in the conference, the Nittany Lions haven't jumped back onto the national stage since.

What made Notre Dame football the thrilling high-wire act it became ? and remains ? was that the Irish never used a net. It never required more nerve than now.

Notre Dame also has provided so many of the game's best moments that it says nothing good about the state of the sport that the school has started pricing safety nets now.

___
 

But what type of maneuvering...here's an example...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031115/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_bcs_future&e=18&ncid=

Quote:


Utah Threatens College Bowl Investigation
Sat Nov 15, 3:26 PM ET  

By JOSH DUBOW, AP Football Writer

If the leaders of the Bowl Championship Series don't come to a resolution with the system's critics at a meeting Sunday, Utah's attorney general might call for an antitrust investigation.

   

Mark Shurtleff sent a letter Thursday to New York's attorney general, Elliott Spitzer, the chairman of the Antitrust Committee of the National Association of Attorneys General, criticizing the postseason system in major college football.


Leaders from the six conferences that started the BCS in 1998 will meet Sunday in New Orleans with representatives of the five Division I-A conferences that are trying to improve their access to the nation's most lucrative bowl games.


"I am glad to see that both the presidents of the BCS and non-BCS schools are committed to resolving this situation fairly. I look forward to the outcome of the presidents' meeting," Shurtleff wrote in the letter, obtained by The Associated Press.


"If a resolution does not emerge from that meeting, I will consider formally requesting that the Antitrust Committee ... open an investigation to examine whether or not competition is restrained and consumers are harmed under the current BCS arrangement."


Details of the letter were first reported Saturday by The New York Times.


Members of the BCS Presidential Oversight Committee were not immediately available for comment, but in the past have said that the system does not violate antitrust laws because it is open to all Division I-A school through two at-large berths.


Shurtleff represents a state that is home to three schools ? BYU, Utah and Utah State ? that are on the outside of the BCS. Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, a BYU graduate, was outspoken in his criticism of the system at a Senate hearing last month.


Questions about access to the BCS have been a big issue in college football since the summer, when Tulane president Scott Cowen started the Coalition for Athletics Reform in an effort to change the system.


The two sides met in September in Chicago and are expected to exchange ideas Sunday. The current BCS contract expires after the 2006 bowls and negotiations will begin next year on a new system.


Created in 1998 by the six most powerful conferences, the BCS guarantees the champions of those leagues ? the Big East, ACC, SEC, Big 12, Big Ten and Pac-10 ? will play in one of the four most lucrative postseason bowl games, leaving only two at-large berths.


One of those bowls pits the top two teams in the BCS standings in a championship game, which will be the Sugar Bowl this season. The Orange, Fiesta and Rose bowls host the other games.


Smaller schools complain that the BCS makes it impossible for them to win the national championship and puts them at a financial and recruiting disadvantage.


The BCS bowls generate more than $110 million a year for the big conferences. The BCS gives about $6 million a year to smaller conferences.


However, in the 20 years before the BCS started, only one school other than independent Notre Dame that's not currently in the six conferences played in one of those four bowls.

What do you think should be done?

[Harlax]

Two words.

Sore losers.

Why is the much of the impetus for this coming from Utah.  Brigham Young University.  Has aspirations to the big time.  Everytime they are on the threshold they get spanked.  When I was in college they had a team that finished the regular season undefeated and played my school, Indiana University, in the Holiday Bowl.  They were ranked ninth and indignant about it.  "Undefeated, Untied, Under Rated" proclaimed banners hanging in the stadium.  Well they lost to a middle of the pack Big Ten school.

Three words.

Delusions of grandeur.


OK, so college football ceased to be an amateur sport years ago.  OK, big money distorts and corrupts.  But don't tell me this is about "fairness."  Its just about another nose trying to get into the trough.

[Rondo_GE]

The times, they are a changin....  

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

Well, if they are unhappy about it, why don't they form their own Bowl Conference and make their own bowl games for their divisions?

[S'Raek]

I think a couple of things are going on here.  In relation to Notre Dame they better seriously improve their program before their contract with NBC is up in 2005.  Do you think anyone will pay big money to watch a team with the talent and record that the Irish do this year?  No way!  On a personal note I find the special treatment that ND gets to be totally amazing.  They are used to getting what they want and not having to give up anything to get it.  They use the Big East for basketball (and other sports I think) but don't really put anything back into it with football, which is where the big money is in college sports.  If they go to a bowl game they get to keep all the money and not spread it around like a conference team has to do.  But I think those times are gone.  

As far as the BCS goes, I think it is better than what we had before.  But it is also imperfect.  Take a look at the ESPN and AP polls.  (Since I am an OSU fan I will use them as an example.)  Earlier this year the Buckeyes dropped in the polls after winning games, because other teams also won against teams that people assumed were better than the teams that OSU beat.  But these teams, ND and Auburn as examples, really turned out to be not that good and therefore the teams that beat them really shouldn't have gotten somekind of bonus from the pollsters.  But now that it is later in the year and several teams are tied with one loss it is impossible for OSU to move up in the polls again, even though they are beating teams that are better than the other ranked teams.  (USC beats AZ by 45, which looks good on paper.  Until you realize that AZ sucks this year.  OSU barely beats Purdue, which was ranked 10 in the nation.  Which is more impressive?)  Now I realize that I am rather biased towards the Buckeyes, but try and see the systematic problem that I'm pointing out and not just the specific example that I used.  (I do think the USC has a good team BTW.)  

The BCS is set up to try and find a more objective way of determining who are the two best teams in the nation.  Does it work?  Yes, I think so.  Could it be better?  Definitely.  Below I will quote an example of another system that someone else used on one of the OSU message boards that I visit.  It isn't my idea so I take no credit and I'm sure it isn't perfect either.  

Quote:

How it works: Teams are awarded 10 points (in my system) for each victory over a team in each of the BCS conferences; 8 points for victories over all other div. 1a teams, such as MAC, Big West, Sun Belt, Conf USA, etc.
Victories over anything less than a div. 1a opponent are worth 5 points.

Example: Ohio State accumulates 96 points for their 10 victories. More points are accumulated on a second level where Ohio State earns the points that each of their defeated opponents earned. This is where schedule strength plays a part. For example, Ohio State gets only 15 more points for beating Indiana, who's 2 victories came over a div.1aa (5pts) and PSU (10pts).
Washington has 5 victories, 4 over BCS teams and one over a non-BCS eligible div. 1a team, with a total of 48 points. Purdue has 8 victories over BCS eligible teams, adding another 80 points to Ohio State's total.

This continues on with each team Ohio State has defeated giving Ohio State a total of 628 points. That total is then divided by the number of games Ohio State has played, being 11, which averages out to 57.09.

I used this formula for OSU, Mich, Miami, VaTech, OK, LSU, USC, and FSU, Tenn, WSU, TCU, GA, FLA, and TX.

Here's my standings after last Saturday.

                                BCS rank        AP        ESPN/coaches

1. Oklahoma - 58.55         1                1        1
2. OSU - 57.09                2                4        4
3. USC - 47.50                3                2        2
4. FSU - 45.27                11                11        10
5. Tenn - 45.00                7                9        11
6. Miami - 44.80                12                13.5        13
7. Mich - 44.09                9                5        5
8. WSU - 42.73                10                8        8
9. TCU - 42.40                8                10        9
10.LSU - 42.20                 4                3        3
11.GA - 42.00                6                6        6
12.FLA - 40.81                13                13.5        14
13.Vtech - 39.40                17                12        12
14.TX - 39.36                5                7        7

And don't get me started on the so-called mid-major schools like TCU.  They have played the 112th hardest schedule out of something like 119.  Any other team in the top 25 would go undefeated with that schedule also.  But they will get their bowl game and get blown out and then people will realize that this is all a bunch of hooey and only driven by the mid-major schools wanting to get a bigger piece of the pie.  

Sorry if this is too long!



 

[Dash Jones]

Okay, hoping links to Yahoo still work...

Story 1

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031114/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_jim_litke&e=19&ncid=

Quote:


Sports - College
 
Why Notre Dame Is Looking at a Safety Net
Thu Nov 13, 7:33 PM ET  

By JIM LITKE, AP Sports Columnist

Going it alone is never easy.

   

So it's hard to blame Notre Dame for making another round of inquiries about tying its future to this conference or that. Given the shifting alliances and cutthroat deals being cut in college football, the people in charge at South Bend would be irresponsible not to take a long look.


The security that a move to the ACC or Big Ten would bring is tempting. There is strength in numbers ? a valuable commodity when it's time to sit across the bargaining table from the TV networks. The money would still be good and the headaches considerably fewer.


But here's the catch: It would also drain most of the magic out of one of the few remaining magical programs in sports.


Independence is what made the Irish. At the start of the last century, Notre Dame became the focal point for a country fast filling up with immigrants and just beginning to fall in love with sports.


The Irish rode the trains to both coasts and stopped off at any point in between. They might be in Yankee Stadium one weekend, Soldier Field the next, and the Coliseum the weekend after. In the days before television, a cheap ticket and a subway ride ? hence "subway alumni" ? was usually all it took to cheer, or boo, the Irish in person.


And for all the things that are different at the start of this century, it would be a shame if Notre Dame lowered its profile now.


In 1999, when talk of joining the Big Ten actually was put to a vote of the university's board of trustees, the late Dan Devine was asked how he'd cast his ballot if he had one.


Devine had coached the Irish for five seasons, winning the national championship in 1977. Nobody knew better what made Notre Dame special, or how tough it was to keep it that way.


"When you grow up playing sports, you love the idea that a team would go any place and play anybody at any time. That was what Notre Dame always stood for," he said. "I don't think it should change now."


Nobody at Notre Dame is saying that it's about to change now, either. In a statement Wednesday, athletic director Kevin White said there were no plans to change a thing. "However," he added, "we are continuing to monitor the landscape."


And anybody looking closely has reason to be nervous.


Conferences are devouring each other at a furious pace. As a result, the next time some old rivals meet will be in a court instead of on a football field.


What the conferences are doing is positioning themselves for the end of the 2005 season, when the TV deal that gives the Bowl Championship Series a chokehold on the lucrative part of college football's postseason is up. So is the exclusive, even more lucrative TV deal Notre Dame struck with NBC.


"In my heart of hearts," Gene Corrigan said, "I'd like to see them stay the way they've been. But I'm not sure that things haven't changed significantly enough that even a place like Notre Dame needs to look at things in a different light."


Corrigan has a better perspective on Notre Dame's dilemma than almost anybody else. He used to be the athletic director there, before becoming commissioner of the ACC and president of the NCAA (news - web sites) from 1995-97. Corrigan knows how much clout Notre Dame still carries. What no one knows is how long it will last.


Last year, though few noticed it and even fewer mentioned it, Notre Dame lost its vote as a member of the BCS. The Irish no longer carried as much weight as the six major conferences that are also BCS members.

   



Practically, it made no difference. The Irish still get special consideration from the poll voters when they're good ? and sometimes, even when they're not. Their strength of schedule always gives them a chance to contend for the national championship, and they get bowl invitations just because of the size of the traveling party.

Yet Notre Dame is spending more and more every year to hold on to its independence. Soon, even the Irish will have to take out a mortgage.

When a new TV deal is struck, nothing short of a playoff will break the major conferences' grip on the national championship. And some of those conferences are still smarting over Notre Dame having its own TV network. The price of a seat at that table is only going to go up.

Two big college football independents chose the conference route a decade ago. Florida State joined the ACC and has used it as a launching pad to contend for the national championship every year.

Penn State slipped comfortably into the Big Ten. The move has benefited both parties, but after some initial success in the conference, the Nittany Lions haven't jumped back onto the national stage since.

What made Notre Dame football the thrilling high-wire act it became ? and remains ? was that the Irish never used a net. It never required more nerve than now.

Notre Dame also has provided so many of the game's best moments that it says nothing good about the state of the sport that the school has started pricing safety nets now.

___
 

But what type of maneuvering...here's an example...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031115/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_bcs_future&e=18&ncid=

Quote:


Utah Threatens College Bowl Investigation
Sat Nov 15, 3:26 PM ET  

By JOSH DUBOW, AP Football Writer

If the leaders of the Bowl Championship Series don't come to a resolution with the system's critics at a meeting Sunday, Utah's attorney general might call for an antitrust investigation.

   

Mark Shurtleff sent a letter Thursday to New York's attorney general, Elliott Spitzer, the chairman of the Antitrust Committee of the National Association of Attorneys General, criticizing the postseason system in major college football.


Leaders from the six conferences that started the BCS in 1998 will meet Sunday in New Orleans with representatives of the five Division I-A conferences that are trying to improve their access to the nation's most lucrative bowl games.


"I am glad to see that both the presidents of the BCS and non-BCS schools are committed to resolving this situation fairly. I look forward to the outcome of the presidents' meeting," Shurtleff wrote in the letter, obtained by The Associated Press.


"If a resolution does not emerge from that meeting, I will consider formally requesting that the Antitrust Committee ... open an investigation to examine whether or not competition is restrained and consumers are harmed under the current BCS arrangement."


Details of the letter were first reported Saturday by The New York Times.


Members of the BCS Presidential Oversight Committee were not immediately available for comment, but in the past have said that the system does not violate antitrust laws because it is open to all Division I-A school through two at-large berths.


Shurtleff represents a state that is home to three schools ? BYU, Utah and Utah State ? that are on the outside of the BCS. Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, a BYU graduate, was outspoken in his criticism of the system at a Senate hearing last month.


Questions about access to the BCS have been a big issue in college football since the summer, when Tulane president Scott Cowen started the Coalition for Athletics Reform in an effort to change the system.


The two sides met in September in Chicago and are expected to exchange ideas Sunday. The current BCS contract expires after the 2006 bowls and negotiations will begin next year on a new system.


Created in 1998 by the six most powerful conferences, the BCS guarantees the champions of those leagues ? the Big East, ACC, SEC, Big 12, Big Ten and Pac-10 ? will play in one of the four most lucrative postseason bowl games, leaving only two at-large berths.


One of those bowls pits the top two teams in the BCS standings in a championship game, which will be the Sugar Bowl this season. The Orange, Fiesta and Rose bowls host the other games.


Smaller schools complain that the BCS makes it impossible for them to win the national championship and puts them at a financial and recruiting disadvantage.


The BCS bowls generate more than $110 million a year for the big conferences. The BCS gives about $6 million a year to smaller conferences.


However, in the 20 years before the BCS started, only one school other than independent Notre Dame that's not currently in the six conferences played in one of those four bowls.

What do you think should be done?

[Harlax]

Two words.

Sore losers.

Why is the much of the impetus for this coming from Utah.  Brigham Young University.  Has aspirations to the big time.  Everytime they are on the threshold they get spanked.  When I was in college they had a team that finished the regular season undefeated and played my school, Indiana University, in the Holiday Bowl.  They were ranked ninth and indignant about it.  "Undefeated, Untied, Under Rated" proclaimed banners hanging in the stadium.  Well they lost to a middle of the pack Big Ten school.

Three words.

Delusions of grandeur.


OK, so college football ceased to be an amateur sport years ago.  OK, big money distorts and corrupts.  But don't tell me this is about "fairness."  Its just about another nose trying to get into the trough.

[Rondo_GE]

The times, they are a changin....  

[KOTH-Steel Claw]

Well, if they are unhappy about it, why don't they form their own Bowl Conference and make their own bowl games for their divisions?

[S'Raek]

I think a couple of things are going on here.  In relation to Notre Dame they better seriously improve their program before their contract with NBC is up in 2005.  Do you think anyone will pay big money to watch a team with the talent and record that the Irish do this year?  No way!  On a personal note I find the special treatment that ND gets to be totally amazing.  They are used to getting what they want and not having to give up anything to get it.  They use the Big East for basketball (and other sports I think) but don't really put anything back into it with football, which is where the big money is in college sports.  If they go to a bowl game they get to keep all the money and not spread it around like a conference team has to do.  But I think those times are gone.  

As far as the BCS goes, I think it is better than what we had before.  But it is also imperfect.  Take a look at the ESPN and AP polls.  (Since I am an OSU fan I will use them as an example.)  Earlier this year the Buckeyes dropped in the polls after winning games, because other teams also won against teams that people assumed were better than the teams that OSU beat.  But these teams, ND and Auburn as examples, really turned out to be not that good and therefore the teams that beat them really shouldn't have gotten somekind of bonus from the pollsters.  But now that it is later in the year and several teams are tied with one loss it is impossible for OSU to move up in the polls again, even though they are beating teams that are better than the other ranked teams.  (USC beats AZ by 45, which looks good on paper.  Until you realize that AZ sucks this year.  OSU barely beats Purdue, which was ranked 10 in the nation.  Which is more impressive?)  Now I realize that I am rather biased towards the Buckeyes, but try and see the systematic problem that I'm pointing out and not just the specific example that I used.  (I do think the USC has a good team BTW.)  

The BCS is set up to try and find a more objective way of determining who are the two best teams in the nation.  Does it work?  Yes, I think so.  Could it be better?  Definitely.  Below I will quote an example of another system that someone else used on one of the OSU message boards that I visit.  It isn't my idea so I take no credit and I'm sure it isn't perfect either.  

Quote:

How it works: Teams are awarded 10 points (in my system) for each victory over a team in each of the BCS conferences; 8 points for victories over all other div. 1a teams, such as MAC, Big West, Sun Belt, Conf USA, etc.
Victories over anything less than a div. 1a opponent are worth 5 points.

Example: Ohio State accumulates 96 points for their 10 victories. More points are accumulated on a second level where Ohio State earns the points that each of their defeated opponents earned. This is where schedule strength plays a part. For example, Ohio State gets only 15 more points for beating Indiana, who's 2 victories came over a div.1aa (5pts) and PSU (10pts).
Washington has 5 victories, 4 over BCS teams and one over a non-BCS eligible div. 1a team, with a total of 48 points. Purdue has 8 victories over BCS eligible teams, adding another 80 points to Ohio State's total.

This continues on with each team Ohio State has defeated giving Ohio State a total of 628 points. That total is then divided by the number of games Ohio State has played, being 11, which averages out to 57.09.

I used this formula for OSU, Mich, Miami, VaTech, OK, LSU, USC, and FSU, Tenn, WSU, TCU, GA, FLA, and TX.

Here's my standings after last Saturday.

                                BCS rank        AP        ESPN/coaches

1. Oklahoma - 58.55         1                1        1
2. OSU - 57.09                2                4        4
3. USC - 47.50                3                2        2
4. FSU - 45.27                11                11        10
5. Tenn - 45.00                7                9        11
6. Miami - 44.80                12                13.5        13
7. Mich - 44.09                9                5        5
8. WSU - 42.73                10                8        8
9. TCU - 42.40                8                10        9
10.LSU - 42.20                 4                3        3
11.GA - 42.00                6                6        6
12.FLA - 40.81                13                13.5        14
13.Vtech - 39.40                17                12        12
14.TX - 39.36                5                7        7

And don't get me started on the so-called mid-major schools like TCU.  They have played the 112th hardest schedule out of something like 119.  Any other team in the top 25 would go undefeated with that schedule also.  But they will get their bowl game and get blown out and then people will realize that this is all a bunch of hooey and only driven by the mid-major schools wanting to get a bigger piece of the pie.  

Sorry if this is too long!