Topic: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here  (Read 10296 times)

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jdmckinney

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OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« on: February 13, 2003, 08:14:06 am »
To help Dave "Nuclear" Wessels track down and slay various bugs with the OP default mission scripts, please add any problems you've found when playing them. The missions are (I think the "Met" numbers are right):

Met1_Scout (Scout)
Met2_HoldingAction (Data Recovery/Holding Action)
Met3_Ambushee (flipside of Ambusher)
Met4_Ambusher (Ambush the Enemy)
Met5_FleetAction (Deep Space Encounter)
Met6_Patrol (Patrol)
Met7_BaseAssault (Base Assault)
Met8_ShipAssault (Shipyard Assault)
Met9_PlanetaryAssault (Planetary Assault)
Met10_Patrol (Patrol)
Met11_ConvoyRaid (Convoy Raid)
Met12_ConvoyEscort (Convoy Escort)
Met13_Monster (Patrol)
Met14_Enigma (Patrol w/derelict ship)
Met15_BaseDefense (Base Defense?)
Met16_ShipDefense (Shipyard Defense)
Met17_Patrol (Patrol)
Met18_HomeworldAssault (Homeworld Assault)
Met19_Scan (Scan)
Met20_SurpriseR (Surprise Reversed)
Met21_DistressCall (Distress Call)
Met22_Diplomat (Diplomat Delivery)
Met23_Quarters (Investigation)
Met24_Anomaly (Patrol w/engine drain)
Met25_SuperFleet (Deep Space Encounter variant?)
Met26_AsteroidAssault (Asteroid Base Assault)
Met27_AsteroidDefense (Asteroid Base Defense)
Met28_Negotiation (Negotiations)
Met29_Recharge (Patrol w/fleet repair dock)
Met30_Salvage (Patrol w/cargo boxes)
Met31_Epicenter (Epicenter)
Met_StarbaseConstruction (Starbase Construction)

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2003, 09:06:07 am »
Here's a general "bug" that pops up in several multi-ship missions like Shipyard Assault/Defense, Base Assault/Defense, Planet Assault, and Deep Space Encounter:

You never (or almost never, can't be sure it's 100% of the time) get your own race as allied AI ships, but instead get your closest allied empire's ships. Sometimes, possibly depending on political tension settings, you can even draw your enemies as allies (so you get missions where sets of same-race AIs fight each other). In short, the whole ally/enemy drafting/spawning is out of whack.

In addition, the assault/defense missions seem to not allow pirates to be drafted as allies. A pirate may draft allied empire players as allies, but not other pirates. Empire players cannot draft pirate allies.

Also, some missions have no hex defense value (DV) effect, and most do not work well when considering cartel layer ownership of hex (can hurt your own hexes with wins if cartel ownership is enemy or neutral). I don't have complete results, and my old notes are suspect. It would help if players could get on a test server or run single-player campaigns to check all possible effects. For instance, Deep Space Encounter seems to be much more reliable in boosting hex DVs in your own space when cartel ownership is enemy or neutral, but what are the hard results when tested repeatedly?

Another general problem is the planet, homeworld, and base assaults don't draft defenders (though base defense might work if fixed). Asteroid Base Assaults can be defended just fine, so it can be made to work, but does it require a new mission on the defense side for each assault script?

---------------------------

Specific mission bugs:

Holding Action/Data Recovery -- Mission ends when "attacker" reaches the listening post if the enemy ships are not destroyed, but player must disengage over border if enemy ships are destroyed. It should be the other way around, so the defenders have more time to catch and kill the attacker once the data is retrieved.

Shipyard Defense -- When playing defense against the AI, smaller ships can "hide" inside the docks to trick the AI into firing on the dock more often than the player (they will sometimes shoot player during overruns). This is probably not script-fixable, but more an AI behavior problem.

Base Assaults spawn bases at random from available bases in that year, instead of spawning the specific base type (BS, BATS, or SB) placed in the hex either in the starting map or by players. Unfortunately, the script may not be able to tell what type of base is there in the database.

Planetary and Homeworld Assaults -- Homeworlds (the really nasty ones from the shiplist that are race-specific) are spawned in both types of assaults seemingly at random, when they should ONLY and ALWAYS be spawned in homeworld assaults.

Convoy Escort -- Will draft an allied player or AI of another race as enemy if they are the closest ship on the map, or have the closest base or planet on the map if no ship is in drafting range. This can cause DV effects to cancel out, since your team both wins and loses the mission.

Enigma -- The derelict patrol AI opponent will not fire on you until the derelict is destroyed or self-destructs. The mission also doesn't draft allied players, though it can draft enemies (at least 1).

Starbase Construction -- Will not draft allied players to help you defend the base, which can be very necessary when facing some of the tougher AI attacking fleets. Oddly enough, this mission CAN draft enemy players as the attackers, though it seems rare. Also, you can buy 2 bases and run one mission that will have BOTH bases spawned in the mission. If one is destroyed and one lives, I -think- you still get a base placed on the hex, but maybe not the DV boost or prestige win. This needs to be tested further.

Surprise Reversed -- Will often (always?) disregard ship release dates when determing which AIs to spawn in enemy fleet. The most obvious recurring result is the presence of X-ships in the early/mid/late eras.

Quarters/Investigation -- This mission may boost your hex DV even if you lose. Also, enemy ship is so close to border when it activates that players have to be extra careful not to accidentally disengage.

Anomaly -- The engine drain does not affect fighters, and is also too easy for drone-armed ships, since drones can still be fired and fly at all times (even if firing ship is hit by engine drain).

Super Fleet -- It's not clear this mission ever actually gets offered. It may be a Deep Space Encounter variant. There's no real indication why there would be 2 DSE missions, or why one seems not to run, unless it is flipside "defense" script only used when players are involved on both sides, like the Shipyard Assault/Defense pair.

Negotiation -- The enemy ship running for the planet is almost impossible to catch at full speed (unless you get a weakly-powered small ship). It also seems to get inside the planet range way too far out from the planet. The ship should probably spawn further away from the planet, have an activation delay, and/or need to get closer to planet for it to win. Though there is a negotiation option with text messages to choose from, it doesn't appear to affect the outcome.

Recharge -- The mission tells you to investigate the dock, but attempts to use the dock to repair generally don't work, and the mission won't end unless you disengage, usually for a loss. It also does not (or usually does not) spawn enemy ships, though enemy players MIGHT be draftable.

Salvage -- Like the recharge, enemy ships never, or almost never, get spawned/drafted. While the one is unwinnable, this one is an automatic win -- you need not do anything as long as you disengage over the border. Assuming you don't self-destruct, you will end up with a win.

Epicenter -- If facing an AI, the warship will not do anything until/unless you attack it. It does not try to save its freighters at all. It will only attack if you fire first. If facing a player, both sides can get prestige wins by saving their freighters and not engaging each other in battle (one player must disengage to end mission). This last one isn't so bad, since it offers a peaceful resolution if the combatants wish to take advantage of it.

------------------------

Again, more testing is needed, specifically on DV results and drafting/spawning.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by jdmckinney »

EmeraldEdge

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2003, 09:18:27 am »
Isnt' there also one on the Ambush mission?  Seems I remember something like if you capture one of the ships your good, but if you capture both, you get a huge negative prestige bonus.  I'll have to give it a try, as I don't remember all of the specifics.  Might have been even Capture one and destroy the other gave a hit.  

Maxillius

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2003, 09:36:54 am »


Specific mission bugs:

Planetary and Homeworld Assaults -- Homeworlds (the really nasty ones from the shiplist that are race-specific) are spawned in both types of assaults seemingly at random, when they should ONLY and ALWAYS be spawned in homeworld assaults. (plus being too weak, and almost never fire)

Enigma -- The derelict patrol AI opponent will not fire on you until the derelict is destroyed or self-destructs. The mission also doesn't draft allied players, though it can draft enemies (at least 1).  Plus, your AI wing will *always* fire on the derelict not the incoming hostile

Anomaly -- The engine drain does not affect fighters, and is also too easy for drone-armed ships, since drones can still be fired and fly at all times (even if firing ship is hit by engine drain).  Also, if you start the mission with a damaged ship, your engines ar eautomatically repaired after the mission ends (if you won of course)

Super Fleet -- It's not clear this mission ever actually gets offered. It may be a Deep Space Encounter variant. There's no real indication why there would be 2 DSE missions, or why one seems not to run, unless it is flipside "defense" script only used when players are involved on both sides, like the Shipyard Assault/Defense pair.  (I think this is the one where you're in a FF and the AI's in 2 DNH's and a BB)

Recharge -- The mission tells you to invetigate the dock, but attempts to use the dock to repair generally don't work, and the mission won't end unless you disengage, usually for a loss. It also does not (or usually does not) spawn enemy ships, though enemy players MIGHT be draftable.

Salvage -- Like the recharge, enemy ships never, or almost never, get spawned/drafted. While the one is unwinnable, this one is an automatic win -- you need not do anything as long as you disengage over the border. Assuming you don't self-destruct, you will end up with a win.

Epicenter -- If facing an AI, the warship will not do anything until/unless you attack it. It does not try to save its freighters at all. It will only attack if you fire first. If facing a player, both sides can get prestige wins by saving their freighters and not engaging each other in battle (one player must disengage to end mission). This last one isn't so bad, since it offers a peaceful resolution if the combatants wish to take advantage of it.  However, if the planet's too big you hear a big boom and see a lot of floating parts at the surface of the planet, followed shortly by mission complete.

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2003, 09:47:56 am »
Yep, there are problems with negative prestige if you capture both enemy ships in the Ambushee. I'm not too sure about the results, either, since I'm just going on memory here (haven't had time to play the missions). I used to NEVER capture both. I think it had to do with not crossing the border -- maybe. I had good results with one capture and one kill, though.

On the Anomaly mission, there used to be a bug with ships NOT getting their engines restored at the end of the mission, though it didn't happen every time. So, you could get out of the mission and have a huge repair bill even though you had taken no damage from battle. I'm not sure if it was ever fixed.

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2003, 11:22:48 am »
Great stuff guys, lots of this is fixable.

keep it coming!

dave
 

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2003, 11:56:29 am »
OK, running  through the list, here's the stuff that's already been addressed for missions 1-19
(in the pack at http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/OPMissions.zip )

The general bug about not drafting your own race for allies should be fixed in most of those,
as should problems with drafting your allies as enemies.  Unfortunately, depending on the alliances on a server this is not necessarily 100% fixable.

I'm not sure about the problems of empire players trying to draft cartel allies - I'll have to look into that some more.

DV effects for 1-19 should be ok now, although specific interaction with the #$%* cartel map is behond script control.

The Holding Action/Data Recovery mission now continues until there is only one side left on the map.

Base assaults should now draft bases of the correct type.

In the Enigma/Derelict mission the enemy ship will fire on whoever is closest - you or the derelict.
Adding the ability to draft allies is nontrivial in this mission, so that part will have to wait awhile.

Homeworld assaults should only appear in homeworld hexes, and planet assaults should only appear on non-homeworld planets.

Ambush has been corrected so you get proper credit for captures.

The rest is on the to-do list for Monday

dave
 
EDIT: PS, the pirates should now be getting breifings in about 90% of the missions in the pack,
there are still 5 or 6 I've got to update.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2003, 01:29:59 pm by NuclearWessels »

Mog

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2003, 12:03:16 pm »
Dave, thank you very, very much indeed

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2003, 12:23:23 pm »
The term "god among men" comes to mind ...

EmeraldEdge

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2003, 07:08:09 pm »
I feel like I did when the Broncos finally won a super bowl.  I'm not really sure what I feel. lol.  Shocked, stunned, overjoyed to the point of inaction. Thank you so much.  

RogueJedi_XC

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2003, 09:34:01 pm »
 
Quote:

Surprise Reversed -- Will often (always?) disregard ship release dates when determing which AIs to spawn in enemy fleet. The most obvious recurring result is the presence of X-ships in the early/mid/late eras.



 
IIRC, you also do not get any bonus points for capturing ships in this mission.  

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2003, 09:40:53 pm »
Quote:

 
Quote:

Surprise Reversed -- Will often (always?) disregard ship release dates when determing which AIs to spawn in enemy fleet. The most obvious recurring result is the presence of X-ships in the early/mid/late eras.



 
IIRC, you also do not get any bonus points for capturing ships in this mission.    




Why should you? It's pathetically easy.

Scipio_66

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2003, 09:55:18 pm »
Of course, the most important of any script corrections is that:

Met6_Patrol (Patrol)
Met10_Patrol (Patrol)
and
Met17_Patrol (Patrol)

should all three be rewritten so that they no longer contain the infamous bundle of evil that is the Patrol Bug.  If a smaller ship starts a mission with a larger ship -- and wisely beats a hastey retreat --  the DV should no longer move in favor of the smaller retreating ship.  Regardless of who wins or loses Prestige points, the DV should always move in favor of the last ship standing.

Yes, I know Dave is very aware of this script bug and probably already has it fixed for OP, but since it's been killing dynaverse campaigns for two years I just wanted to be sure that this bug doesn't fall through the cracks.

-S'Cipio  

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2003, 12:02:20 am »
Not to worry Scip, the evil patrol bug was first on the dead  list.  More than anything else, that damn bug was what kept me motivated to learn the API in the first place.

Hey Corbo, if capturing is too easy I can fix that

dave
   

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2003, 12:21:44 am »
Quote:



Hey Corbo, if capturing is too easy I can fix that

dave
     





Well, that would sort of defeat the purpose of the mission, but hey it's your dime.

DonKarnage

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2003, 01:58:29 pm »
well my problem is i paly the fed in the late era and m in romulan territory and it seem that most of the time the romuland ship are missing (not the mod) but just no ship where it supose to be, i attack a shipyard and no ship to defend it, i play a rescue mission and the fed ship is not attack so no ship and when i leave the mission is fail cause i dint destroye any romuland ship, so no prestige point gain, any idea whats wrong... i got the 2525 patch.

RogueJedi_XC

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2003, 05:20:48 pm »
Perhaps the best thing would be to somehow remove the ability to beam over marines in the Surprise Reversed mission. I have no idea how that might be done, or if it would be possible, but it's a solution. Otherwise, there should be provisions for capturing.

 

The Postman

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2003, 03:36:30 pm »
"Negotiation -- The enemy ship running for the planet is almost impossible to catch at full speed (unless you get a weakly-powered small ship). It also seems to get inside the planet range way too far out from the planet. The ship should probably spawn further away from the planet, have an activation delay, and/or need to get closer to planet for it to win. Though there is a negotiation option with text messages to choose from, it doesn't appear to affect the outcome. "

This battle is winnable. If somebody wants the spoiler for this mission please let me know and I will give you the solution through email.  

Johanobesus

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2003, 09:31:39 pm »
Whenever I play the anomoly patrol, after winning I get a negeative prestige, 75 or 100.  Usually I get about +500 prestige as well, but sometimes I don't.  Sometimes the mission will end as soon as the enemy is destroyed, and sometimes I must leave the system.  The outcome seems to be totally random.

On change that would be nice is if the obligatory missions that pop up when traveling within your own empire could vary.  It's bad enough to get stuck with a mission when trying to cross from one front to another, but when it is always the same mission it can get very frustrating.  I have gotten to hate the diplomatic delivery.

FireSoul

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2003, 03:41:42 pm »
Dave,

Do you feel like handling neutral coop DV issues?

-- Luc

DonKarnage

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2003, 06:21:34 pm »
here more weird stuff, i play to fed,  
mission is: convoy raid vs romuland, no romuland ship on the map result: i win no battle

mission starbase assault , fed vs mirak result fail no base to attack and no ship

mission scout m still the fed, result i win no battle cause no ship (or like i destroyed them)

mission scout result this time i lose no ship to scan, the mission close after i arrived in the sector

mission scan monster result i win, there was a monster to scan

mission homeword assault resault fail no ship or planet.

there mission where play in the romuland terittory as a fed.

 

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2003, 08:51:38 pm »
Firesoul,  yes I think I can get the neutral coop problems nullified.

I'm working through the mission list, still about 7 missions to go, most problems seem fixable so far.

There is one significant issue with the revised anomaly mission.  As we've all suspected, anomalies are simulated by completely destroying your engines then 90% restoring them when the effects are supposed to wear off.  Of course, that has no impact on drones, shuttles, fighters, phaser capacitors, etc. but it has disastrous effects on weapons that have a holding cost.  IMO this is almost impossible to balance across the races.  So, what I've done is rework the anomaly to randomly target different ship systems.  One time it may hit your labs, another time the engines, another time the cloak (if you have one) another time the transporters, another time the shuttle/fighter bays, another time the shields, another time you weapons, etc etc.   The effects will usually disable the system for 15-45 seconds, then you get a 1-2 minute breather before another system gets hit.  It has been corrected so that any leftover anomaly effects should now get repaired at the end of the scenario.

dave


 

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2003, 09:04:47 pm »
BTW -  the "SuperFleet" mission is one poor lonely little ship (you) trying to escape from a big mob of bad guys.  Not sure yet if I can actually get it working and offered.

EDIT:: Good news and bad news.  I've got Met_25SuperFleet working, but it's kinda dull.  There are 5 big ships around your one  (i.e. all 1-2 size classes bigger than your ship) and your mission objective is simply to run away.  It's a big map, so it takes you a couple of minutes to make it to a border, but you get a win and 225 pp for running away from some AI that are too dumb to make a good attempt at intercepting you.  I'll see if I can do something to liven it up a bit

dave
   
« Last Edit: February 16, 2003, 09:49:11 pm by NuclearWessels »

WindFire

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2003, 10:36:25 pm »
Thanks for the hard work.  


Windfire
« Last Edit: February 17, 2003, 12:56:00 am by WindFire »

FireSoul

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2003, 10:41:39 pm »
Will you ever be sharing source code? (eventually?)

-- Luc

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2003, 09:29:54 am »
Yep - you bet Firesoul.  If I can get the current round of fixes wrapped up today, and maybe give it about 2 weeks for testing and tweaking, then I'll post the whole mess of source code for both OP and EAW.  I actually have a chunk of free time at the end of the month, so hopefully I can wrap it all up nicely then.

dave
   

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2003, 06:51:40 pm »
Alllllrighteeee then ...

The first blow through the OP scripts is done, 59 missions covering most of the fixes folks have asked for above.

I haven't tested this in any great detail yet, so there are undoubtedly bugs.  Some of the missions were in kinda rough shape -- 30Salvage, 29Recharge and 25SuperFleet in particular -- so PLEASE let me know about any bugs you find in the modified versions.

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/OPMissions.zip

dave
 

RogueJedi_XC

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2003, 11:42:58 pm »
I ran a few missions, the ambush mission failed to generate an enemy for me twice. I haven't seen any others, yet.

Great work, Dave.  

FireSoul

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2003, 12:27:33 am »
Thanks Dave,

.. I updated my site's .MCT file packages ..
 http://klingon.stasis.ca/sources_and_utils/EvilDave/NW_EAWtoOP_Campaigns.zip

.. BTW.. I'd like also to declare that I've updated my site's packages for the EAW campaigns that have been compiled for SFC:OP.
 http://klingon.stasis.ca/EAW_missions/

Updated/fixed files:
- Uni_7BattleGrave.scr  (as per 20020215)
- Uni_1Desecration.scr (use asteroids, not N-AB bases)

See link for details. I'm continuing to play the single-player campaigns and thus review the missions.
-- Luc

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by FireSoul »

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2003, 01:27:48 am »
Hey Dave I forgot to list this one. Starbase Construction does not take into account the terrain of the hex you place the base in. Even if you are in a nebula the mission is done in open space. It's a small thing, but it would be nice to have the correct map when you build the base.

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2003, 03:04:56 am »
The Salvage mission still did not generate an enemy to fight.

The Prisoner mission is OTT. There are waaaaay too many pirates to handle with only one support ship and an almost usless transport. Of course I was playing on the hardest setting, but on one mission I counted 8 pirate ships and 6 on another and they weren't small. You might want to scale that one down a bit. I can't remember if the original was that hard, but I do remember winning the mission.

On the Courier mission the courier stuck around and engaged my task force (it had help). I figured it would want to run away. Does it have a destination at all?

More as I can test more, but good work so far.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Corbomite »

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2003, 09:53:44 am »
Quote:

"Negotiation -- The enemy ship running for the planet is almost impossible to catch at full speed (unless you get a weakly-powered small ship). It also seems to get inside the planet range way too far out from the planet. The ship should probably spawn further away from the planet, have an activation delay, and/or need to get closer to planet for it to win. Though there is a negotiation option with text messages to choose from, it doesn't appear to affect the outcome."

This battle is winnable. If somebody wants the spoiler for this mission please let me know and I will give you the solution through email.




If the way to win this mission is some sort of gimmicky misdirection with mirrors (i.e., do the right thing, and it's easy), then I'd like to see a more difficult mission that's more straightforward rather than having yet another fluff mission.

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2003, 11:16:41 am »
There was supposed to be a chance that the AI would negotiate with you, but a key line controlling that contained a bug and had been commented out.  Hopefully that's now corrected, so sometimes you can talk your way out of a fight.

The delivery distance has been changed so the ship now has to get within transporter range of the planet,  the starting ship positions have been altered, and the enemy ships on the map should now have an inclination to actually do something during the mission.

Corbo, DOH!, I meant to fix the pirate levels in that prisoner transport mission, but it completely slipped my mind.  And I found (I hope) the issue with enemy generation during the salvage mission.

I might also have a surprise in store for the ambush and surprise reversed missions, but still have to test it out a little more first.

dave

     

jdmckinney

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OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2003, 08:14:06 am »
To help Dave "Nuclear" Wessels track down and slay various bugs with the OP default mission scripts, please add any problems you've found when playing them. The missions are (I think the "Met" numbers are right):

Met1_Scout (Scout)
Met2_HoldingAction (Data Recovery/Holding Action)
Met3_Ambushee (flipside of Ambusher)
Met4_Ambusher (Ambush the Enemy)
Met5_FleetAction (Deep Space Encounter)
Met6_Patrol (Patrol)
Met7_BaseAssault (Base Assault)
Met8_ShipAssault (Shipyard Assault)
Met9_PlanetaryAssault (Planetary Assault)
Met10_Patrol (Patrol)
Met11_ConvoyRaid (Convoy Raid)
Met12_ConvoyEscort (Convoy Escort)
Met13_Monster (Patrol)
Met14_Enigma (Patrol w/derelict ship)
Met15_BaseDefense (Base Defense?)
Met16_ShipDefense (Shipyard Defense)
Met17_Patrol (Patrol)
Met18_HomeworldAssault (Homeworld Assault)
Met19_Scan (Scan)
Met20_SurpriseR (Surprise Reversed)
Met21_DistressCall (Distress Call)
Met22_Diplomat (Diplomat Delivery)
Met23_Quarters (Investigation)
Met24_Anomaly (Patrol w/engine drain)
Met25_SuperFleet (Deep Space Encounter variant?)
Met26_AsteroidAssault (Asteroid Base Assault)
Met27_AsteroidDefense (Asteroid Base Defense)
Met28_Negotiation (Negotiations)
Met29_Recharge (Patrol w/fleet repair dock)
Met30_Salvage (Patrol w/cargo boxes)
Met31_Epicenter (Epicenter)
Met_StarbaseConstruction (Starbase Construction)

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2003, 09:06:07 am »
Here's a general "bug" that pops up in several multi-ship missions like Shipyard Assault/Defense, Base Assault/Defense, Planet Assault, and Deep Space Encounter:

You never (or almost never, can't be sure it's 100% of the time) get your own race as allied AI ships, but instead get your closest allied empire's ships. Sometimes, possibly depending on political tension settings, you can even draw your enemies as allies (so you get missions where sets of same-race AIs fight each other). In short, the whole ally/enemy drafting/spawning is out of whack.

In addition, the assault/defense missions seem to not allow pirates to be drafted as allies. A pirate may draft allied empire players as allies, but not other pirates. Empire players cannot draft pirate allies.

Also, some missions have no hex defense value (DV) effect, and most do not work well when considering cartel layer ownership of hex (can hurt your own hexes with wins if cartel ownership is enemy or neutral). I don't have complete results, and my old notes are suspect. It would help if players could get on a test server or run single-player campaigns to check all possible effects. For instance, Deep Space Encounter seems to be much more reliable in boosting hex DVs in your own space when cartel ownership is enemy or neutral, but what are the hard results when tested repeatedly?

Another general problem is the planet, homeworld, and base assaults don't draft defenders (though base defense might work if fixed). Asteroid Base Assaults can be defended just fine, so it can be made to work, but does it require a new mission on the defense side for each assault script?

---------------------------

Specific mission bugs:

Holding Action/Data Recovery -- Mission ends when "attacker" reaches the listening post if the enemy ships are not destroyed, but player must disengage over border if enemy ships are destroyed. It should be the other way around, so the defenders have more time to catch and kill the attacker once the data is retrieved.

Shipyard Defense -- When playing defense against the AI, smaller ships can "hide" inside the docks to trick the AI into firing on the dock more often than the player (they will sometimes shoot player during overruns). This is probably not script-fixable, but more an AI behavior problem.

Base Assaults spawn bases at random from available bases in that year, instead of spawning the specific base type (BS, BATS, or SB) placed in the hex either in the starting map or by players. Unfortunately, the script may not be able to tell what type of base is there in the database.

Planetary and Homeworld Assaults -- Homeworlds (the really nasty ones from the shiplist that are race-specific) are spawned in both types of assaults seemingly at random, when they should ONLY and ALWAYS be spawned in homeworld assaults.

Convoy Escort -- Will draft an allied player or AI of another race as enemy if they are the closest ship on the map, or have the closest base or planet on the map if no ship is in drafting range. This can cause DV effects to cancel out, since your team both wins and loses the mission.

Enigma -- The derelict patrol AI opponent will not fire on you until the derelict is destroyed or self-destructs. The mission also doesn't draft allied players, though it can draft enemies (at least 1).

Starbase Construction -- Will not draft allied players to help you defend the base, which can be very necessary when facing some of the tougher AI attacking fleets. Oddly enough, this mission CAN draft enemy players as the attackers, though it seems rare. Also, you can buy 2 bases and run one mission that will have BOTH bases spawned in the mission. If one is destroyed and one lives, I -think- you still get a base placed on the hex, but maybe not the DV boost or prestige win. This needs to be tested further.

Surprise Reversed -- Will often (always?) disregard ship release dates when determing which AIs to spawn in enemy fleet. The most obvious recurring result is the presence of X-ships in the early/mid/late eras.

Quarters/Investigation -- This mission may boost your hex DV even if you lose. Also, enemy ship is so close to border when it activates that players have to be extra careful not to accidentally disengage.

Anomaly -- The engine drain does not affect fighters, and is also too easy for drone-armed ships, since drones can still be fired and fly at all times (even if firing ship is hit by engine drain).

Super Fleet -- It's not clear this mission ever actually gets offered. It may be a Deep Space Encounter variant. There's no real indication why there would be 2 DSE missions, or why one seems not to run, unless it is flipside "defense" script only used when players are involved on both sides, like the Shipyard Assault/Defense pair.

Negotiation -- The enemy ship running for the planet is almost impossible to catch at full speed (unless you get a weakly-powered small ship). It also seems to get inside the planet range way too far out from the planet. The ship should probably spawn further away from the planet, have an activation delay, and/or need to get closer to planet for it to win. Though there is a negotiation option with text messages to choose from, it doesn't appear to affect the outcome.

Recharge -- The mission tells you to investigate the dock, but attempts to use the dock to repair generally don't work, and the mission won't end unless you disengage, usually for a loss. It also does not (or usually does not) spawn enemy ships, though enemy players MIGHT be draftable.

Salvage -- Like the recharge, enemy ships never, or almost never, get spawned/drafted. While the one is unwinnable, this one is an automatic win -- you need not do anything as long as you disengage over the border. Assuming you don't self-destruct, you will end up with a win.

Epicenter -- If facing an AI, the warship will not do anything until/unless you attack it. It does not try to save its freighters at all. It will only attack if you fire first. If facing a player, both sides can get prestige wins by saving their freighters and not engaging each other in battle (one player must disengage to end mission). This last one isn't so bad, since it offers a peaceful resolution if the combatants wish to take advantage of it.

------------------------

Again, more testing is needed, specifically on DV results and drafting/spawning.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by jdmckinney »

EmeraldEdge

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2003, 09:18:27 am »
Isnt' there also one on the Ambush mission?  Seems I remember something like if you capture one of the ships your good, but if you capture both, you get a huge negative prestige bonus.  I'll have to give it a try, as I don't remember all of the specifics.  Might have been even Capture one and destroy the other gave a hit.  

Maxillius

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2003, 09:36:54 am »


Specific mission bugs:

Planetary and Homeworld Assaults -- Homeworlds (the really nasty ones from the shiplist that are race-specific) are spawned in both types of assaults seemingly at random, when they should ONLY and ALWAYS be spawned in homeworld assaults. (plus being too weak, and almost never fire)

Enigma -- The derelict patrol AI opponent will not fire on you until the derelict is destroyed or self-destructs. The mission also doesn't draft allied players, though it can draft enemies (at least 1).  Plus, your AI wing will *always* fire on the derelict not the incoming hostile

Anomaly -- The engine drain does not affect fighters, and is also too easy for drone-armed ships, since drones can still be fired and fly at all times (even if firing ship is hit by engine drain).  Also, if you start the mission with a damaged ship, your engines ar eautomatically repaired after the mission ends (if you won of course)

Super Fleet -- It's not clear this mission ever actually gets offered. It may be a Deep Space Encounter variant. There's no real indication why there would be 2 DSE missions, or why one seems not to run, unless it is flipside "defense" script only used when players are involved on both sides, like the Shipyard Assault/Defense pair.  (I think this is the one where you're in a FF and the AI's in 2 DNH's and a BB)

Recharge -- The mission tells you to invetigate the dock, but attempts to use the dock to repair generally don't work, and the mission won't end unless you disengage, usually for a loss. It also does not (or usually does not) spawn enemy ships, though enemy players MIGHT be draftable.

Salvage -- Like the recharge, enemy ships never, or almost never, get spawned/drafted. While the one is unwinnable, this one is an automatic win -- you need not do anything as long as you disengage over the border. Assuming you don't self-destruct, you will end up with a win.

Epicenter -- If facing an AI, the warship will not do anything until/unless you attack it. It does not try to save its freighters at all. It will only attack if you fire first. If facing a player, both sides can get prestige wins by saving their freighters and not engaging each other in battle (one player must disengage to end mission). This last one isn't so bad, since it offers a peaceful resolution if the combatants wish to take advantage of it.  However, if the planet's too big you hear a big boom and see a lot of floating parts at the surface of the planet, followed shortly by mission complete.

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2003, 09:47:56 am »
Yep, there are problems with negative prestige if you capture both enemy ships in the Ambushee. I'm not too sure about the results, either, since I'm just going on memory here (haven't had time to play the missions). I used to NEVER capture both. I think it had to do with not crossing the border -- maybe. I had good results with one capture and one kill, though.

On the Anomaly mission, there used to be a bug with ships NOT getting their engines restored at the end of the mission, though it didn't happen every time. So, you could get out of the mission and have a huge repair bill even though you had taken no damage from battle. I'm not sure if it was ever fixed.

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2003, 11:22:48 am »
Great stuff guys, lots of this is fixable.

keep it coming!

dave
 

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2003, 11:56:29 am »
OK, running  through the list, here's the stuff that's already been addressed for missions 1-19
(in the pack at http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/OPMissions.zip )

The general bug about not drafting your own race for allies should be fixed in most of those,
as should problems with drafting your allies as enemies.  Unfortunately, depending on the alliances on a server this is not necessarily 100% fixable.

I'm not sure about the problems of empire players trying to draft cartel allies - I'll have to look into that some more.

DV effects for 1-19 should be ok now, although specific interaction with the #$%* cartel map is behond script control.

The Holding Action/Data Recovery mission now continues until there is only one side left on the map.

Base assaults should now draft bases of the correct type.

In the Enigma/Derelict mission the enemy ship will fire on whoever is closest - you or the derelict.
Adding the ability to draft allies is nontrivial in this mission, so that part will have to wait awhile.

Homeworld assaults should only appear in homeworld hexes, and planet assaults should only appear on non-homeworld planets.

Ambush has been corrected so you get proper credit for captures.

The rest is on the to-do list for Monday

dave
 
EDIT: PS, the pirates should now be getting breifings in about 90% of the missions in the pack,
there are still 5 or 6 I've got to update.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2003, 01:29:59 pm by NuclearWessels »

Mog

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2003, 12:03:16 pm »
Dave, thank you very, very much indeed

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2003, 12:23:23 pm »
The term "god among men" comes to mind ...

EmeraldEdge

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2003, 07:08:09 pm »
I feel like I did when the Broncos finally won a super bowl.  I'm not really sure what I feel. lol.  Shocked, stunned, overjoyed to the point of inaction. Thank you so much.  

RogueJedi_XC

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2003, 09:34:01 pm »
 
Quote:

Surprise Reversed -- Will often (always?) disregard ship release dates when determing which AIs to spawn in enemy fleet. The most obvious recurring result is the presence of X-ships in the early/mid/late eras.



 
IIRC, you also do not get any bonus points for capturing ships in this mission.  

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2003, 09:40:53 pm »
Quote:

 
Quote:

Surprise Reversed -- Will often (always?) disregard ship release dates when determing which AIs to spawn in enemy fleet. The most obvious recurring result is the presence of X-ships in the early/mid/late eras.



 
IIRC, you also do not get any bonus points for capturing ships in this mission.    




Why should you? It's pathetically easy.

Scipio_66

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2003, 09:55:18 pm »
Of course, the most important of any script corrections is that:

Met6_Patrol (Patrol)
Met10_Patrol (Patrol)
and
Met17_Patrol (Patrol)

should all three be rewritten so that they no longer contain the infamous bundle of evil that is the Patrol Bug.  If a smaller ship starts a mission with a larger ship -- and wisely beats a hastey retreat --  the DV should no longer move in favor of the smaller retreating ship.  Regardless of who wins or loses Prestige points, the DV should always move in favor of the last ship standing.

Yes, I know Dave is very aware of this script bug and probably already has it fixed for OP, but since it's been killing dynaverse campaigns for two years I just wanted to be sure that this bug doesn't fall through the cracks.

-S'Cipio  

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2003, 12:02:20 am »
Not to worry Scip, the evil patrol bug was first on the dead  list.  More than anything else, that damn bug was what kept me motivated to learn the API in the first place.

Hey Corbo, if capturing is too easy I can fix that

dave
   

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2003, 12:21:44 am »
Quote:



Hey Corbo, if capturing is too easy I can fix that

dave
     





Well, that would sort of defeat the purpose of the mission, but hey it's your dime.

DonKarnage

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2003, 01:58:29 pm »
well my problem is i paly the fed in the late era and m in romulan territory and it seem that most of the time the romuland ship are missing (not the mod) but just no ship where it supose to be, i attack a shipyard and no ship to defend it, i play a rescue mission and the fed ship is not attack so no ship and when i leave the mission is fail cause i dint destroye any romuland ship, so no prestige point gain, any idea whats wrong... i got the 2525 patch.

RogueJedi_XC

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2003, 05:20:48 pm »
Perhaps the best thing would be to somehow remove the ability to beam over marines in the Surprise Reversed mission. I have no idea how that might be done, or if it would be possible, but it's a solution. Otherwise, there should be provisions for capturing.

 

The Postman

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2003, 03:36:30 pm »
"Negotiation -- The enemy ship running for the planet is almost impossible to catch at full speed (unless you get a weakly-powered small ship). It also seems to get inside the planet range way too far out from the planet. The ship should probably spawn further away from the planet, have an activation delay, and/or need to get closer to planet for it to win. Though there is a negotiation option with text messages to choose from, it doesn't appear to affect the outcome. "

This battle is winnable. If somebody wants the spoiler for this mission please let me know and I will give you the solution through email.  

Johanobesus

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2003, 09:31:39 pm »
Whenever I play the anomoly patrol, after winning I get a negeative prestige, 75 or 100.  Usually I get about +500 prestige as well, but sometimes I don't.  Sometimes the mission will end as soon as the enemy is destroyed, and sometimes I must leave the system.  The outcome seems to be totally random.

On change that would be nice is if the obligatory missions that pop up when traveling within your own empire could vary.  It's bad enough to get stuck with a mission when trying to cross from one front to another, but when it is always the same mission it can get very frustrating.  I have gotten to hate the diplomatic delivery.

FireSoul

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2003, 03:41:42 pm »
Dave,

Do you feel like handling neutral coop DV issues?

-- Luc

DonKarnage

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2003, 06:21:34 pm »
here more weird stuff, i play to fed,  
mission is: convoy raid vs romuland, no romuland ship on the map result: i win no battle

mission starbase assault , fed vs mirak result fail no base to attack and no ship

mission scout m still the fed, result i win no battle cause no ship (or like i destroyed them)

mission scout result this time i lose no ship to scan, the mission close after i arrived in the sector

mission scan monster result i win, there was a monster to scan

mission homeword assault resault fail no ship or planet.

there mission where play in the romuland terittory as a fed.

 

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2003, 08:51:38 pm »
Firesoul,  yes I think I can get the neutral coop problems nullified.

I'm working through the mission list, still about 7 missions to go, most problems seem fixable so far.

There is one significant issue with the revised anomaly mission.  As we've all suspected, anomalies are simulated by completely destroying your engines then 90% restoring them when the effects are supposed to wear off.  Of course, that has no impact on drones, shuttles, fighters, phaser capacitors, etc. but it has disastrous effects on weapons that have a holding cost.  IMO this is almost impossible to balance across the races.  So, what I've done is rework the anomaly to randomly target different ship systems.  One time it may hit your labs, another time the engines, another time the cloak (if you have one) another time the transporters, another time the shuttle/fighter bays, another time the shields, another time you weapons, etc etc.   The effects will usually disable the system for 15-45 seconds, then you get a 1-2 minute breather before another system gets hit.  It has been corrected so that any leftover anomaly effects should now get repaired at the end of the scenario.

dave


 

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2003, 09:04:47 pm »
BTW -  the "SuperFleet" mission is one poor lonely little ship (you) trying to escape from a big mob of bad guys.  Not sure yet if I can actually get it working and offered.

EDIT:: Good news and bad news.  I've got Met_25SuperFleet working, but it's kinda dull.  There are 5 big ships around your one  (i.e. all 1-2 size classes bigger than your ship) and your mission objective is simply to run away.  It's a big map, so it takes you a couple of minutes to make it to a border, but you get a win and 225 pp for running away from some AI that are too dumb to make a good attempt at intercepting you.  I'll see if I can do something to liven it up a bit

dave
   
« Last Edit: February 16, 2003, 09:49:11 pm by NuclearWessels »

WindFire

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2003, 10:36:25 pm »
Thanks for the hard work.  


Windfire
« Last Edit: February 17, 2003, 12:56:00 am by WindFire »

FireSoul

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2003, 10:41:39 pm »
Will you ever be sharing source code? (eventually?)

-- Luc

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2003, 09:29:54 am »
Yep - you bet Firesoul.  If I can get the current round of fixes wrapped up today, and maybe give it about 2 weeks for testing and tweaking, then I'll post the whole mess of source code for both OP and EAW.  I actually have a chunk of free time at the end of the month, so hopefully I can wrap it all up nicely then.

dave
   

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2003, 06:51:40 pm »
Alllllrighteeee then ...

The first blow through the OP scripts is done, 59 missions covering most of the fixes folks have asked for above.

I haven't tested this in any great detail yet, so there are undoubtedly bugs.  Some of the missions were in kinda rough shape -- 30Salvage, 29Recharge and 25SuperFleet in particular -- so PLEASE let me know about any bugs you find in the modified versions.

http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/OPMissions.zip

dave
 

RogueJedi_XC

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2003, 11:42:58 pm »
I ran a few missions, the ambush mission failed to generate an enemy for me twice. I haven't seen any others, yet.

Great work, Dave.  

FireSoul

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2003, 12:27:33 am »
Thanks Dave,

.. I updated my site's .MCT file packages ..
 http://klingon.stasis.ca/sources_and_utils/EvilDave/NW_EAWtoOP_Campaigns.zip

.. BTW.. I'd like also to declare that I've updated my site's packages for the EAW campaigns that have been compiled for SFC:OP.
 http://klingon.stasis.ca/EAW_missions/

Updated/fixed files:
- Uni_7BattleGrave.scr  (as per 20020215)
- Uni_1Desecration.scr (use asteroids, not N-AB bases)

See link for details. I'm continuing to play the single-player campaigns and thus review the missions.
-- Luc

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by FireSoul »

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2003, 01:27:48 am »
Hey Dave I forgot to list this one. Starbase Construction does not take into account the terrain of the hex you place the base in. Even if you are in a nebula the mission is done in open space. It's a small thing, but it would be nice to have the correct map when you build the base.

Corbomite

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2003, 03:04:56 am »
The Salvage mission still did not generate an enemy to fight.

The Prisoner mission is OTT. There are waaaaay too many pirates to handle with only one support ship and an almost usless transport. Of course I was playing on the hardest setting, but on one mission I counted 8 pirate ships and 6 on another and they weren't small. You might want to scale that one down a bit. I can't remember if the original was that hard, but I do remember winning the mission.

On the Courier mission the courier stuck around and engaged my task force (it had help). I figured it would want to run away. Does it have a destination at all?

More as I can test more, but good work so far.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Corbomite »

jdmckinney

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2003, 09:53:44 am »
Quote:

"Negotiation -- The enemy ship running for the planet is almost impossible to catch at full speed (unless you get a weakly-powered small ship). It also seems to get inside the planet range way too far out from the planet. The ship should probably spawn further away from the planet, have an activation delay, and/or need to get closer to planet for it to win. Though there is a negotiation option with text messages to choose from, it doesn't appear to affect the outcome."

This battle is winnable. If somebody wants the spoiler for this mission please let me know and I will give you the solution through email.




If the way to win this mission is some sort of gimmicky misdirection with mirrors (i.e., do the right thing, and it's easy), then I'd like to see a more difficult mission that's more straightforward rather than having yet another fluff mission.

NuclearWessels

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Re: OP Mission Script Bug List: Add Yours Here
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2003, 11:16:41 am »
There was supposed to be a chance that the AI would negotiate with you, but a key line controlling that contained a bug and had been commented out.  Hopefully that's now corrected, so sometimes you can talk your way out of a fight.

The delivery distance has been changed so the ship now has to get within transporter range of the planet,  the starting ship positions have been altered, and the enemy ships on the map should now have an inclination to actually do something during the mission.

Corbo, DOH!, I meant to fix the pirate levels in that prisoner transport mission, but it completely slipped my mind.  And I found (I hope) the issue with enemy generation during the salvage mission.

I might also have a surprise in store for the ambush and surprise reversed missions, but still have to test it out a little more first.

dave