Topic: Cloak fixes very much needed in future patch

[Firestorm]

   

• The obvious fix is that cloak needs to be stronger and/or anti-cloak needs to be much weaker.  Cloak is way too easily detected currently.
  
• Someone posted in another thread way back when, that phase in/out should be about 2 seconds.  At the time, I thought that still seemed like way too long, but I have recently timed the phase in/out of a Vor'cha with Legendary officers is about 4 seconds.  So, I reconsider that two seconds(about half the current time) should be sufficient to balance out that part of the cloak problems.   It is at least a good place to start and go from there.
  
• The patch is already suppose to weaken the probes capability of dectecting cloak, and I haven't experienced that enough yet to know if it was sufficient or not.
  

IMO:
I think the cloak/anti-cloak strength should be fixed this way:

• Level-5 cloak - not detectable with any computer, only by probes.
• Level-4 cloak - detectable with level-5 computer and by probes.
• Level-3 cloak - detectable with level-4 computer or better and by probes.
• Level-2 cloak - detectable with level-3 computer or better and by probes.
• Level-1 cloak - detectable with level-2 computer or better and by probes.
  

     

[Xantim]

I would have it more like this:

-lvl5 detectable by lvl5 computer
-lvl4 detectable by lvl5 computer and probes
-lvl3 detectable by lvl4+ computer and probes
-lvl2 detectable by lvl4+ computer and probes(wider arc)
-lvl1 detectable by lvl4+ comuter and by probes(very wide arc)

Also computer 5 gets a bonus on lvl3 computers down (the lower the better)
Also computer 4 gets a bonus on lvl2 computers down (the lower the better)

Officers also give bonuses to probe arc and % of anti-cloak scans.
Officer of same lvl negates enemy bonus and if better makes probe arc and comuter scans less effective.  

[Firestorm]

 
That doesn't sufficiently address the problem with anti-cloak being too strong.  That is basically what we have now.  All things equal, cloak will be detected.  That just doesn't work strategically.  It negates the cloak too much.
   

[EE]

The real problem comes from this. Klingons and Romulans have 5 systems in their hull and bridge system where the Federation and borg have only 4.

if you had equal space on each ships for each location, the Federation will always have a easier time detecting you then you have hiding because you have to alocate less space per item then the Fed's/Borg.

I think there would need to be one of two things done. Make anti-cloak scan its own system like the cloak or require a level 5 computer to be the equivilant of what a level 4 computer can detect now. With the addition of probes, I dont see this as a probem since they have two ways to detect and only 4 systems in their bridge/hull system area.

[lloyd007]

I like yor ideas firestorm except that we shoulddn't make LVL 5 cloak invincible which with probes reduced would basically be that effect. instead it shoud be range and size dependent where a BOP or Talon with only a lvl 1 or two cloak has the eqivalent of a lvl 4 or 5 cloak on say a Warbird. Different level computers would only have a chance to detect out to a certain range so for example if I had a lvl 5 cloaked WB with all legendary the max detatable range would be very small like 10 or something even with an opposing lvl 5 comp with legendary officers while if I had a WB with lvl 1 cloak and green officers vs a lvl 5 computer I could be detected to nearly the max scanner range etc. All comps would have anticloak tech but it would be a fixed ability not modified by ship size.

Here is my table

(lvl 5 is the highest lvl cloak so going above just wastes space)

FF with lvl one or two cloak has equivalent lvl 4 or 5 cloak
DD with lvl one two or thee cloak has lvl 3, 4 or 5
CL with lvl two or three or four cloak has equivalent 3,4,5 cloak
CA with lvl three or four has equivalent four or five cloak and a penalty carrying a lvl 1 cloak
CH with lvl 4 cloak has equivalent of lvl five and a penalty with lvl 1 or 2 (i.e. it is easier to detect with these weak cloaks)
DN has a penalty to lvl 1,2,3 cloaks and normal for 4 and 5 cloak

Anyone think this is a good idea? Giving bonuses to the smaller ships means that they can get a good cloak without penalizing them too much for carrying a fifth bridge system. Cloaks should have larger steppings in mass and cost though  

[Tannhauser]

The problem is that the cloak is too weak right now.  Unfortunately, many of the things people are asking for would take it to the other extreme and make it far too strong.  
Here's my two slips of gold-pressed latinum:
1.  Probes should have a very weak chance of detecting a cloaked ship.  After all, they have a long range, and they move quickly.  Perhaps if a probe detects a cloaked ship, it could then track the ship until the probe burns out (obviously, the cloaked ship will know if a probe is following it).  In this case, a probe should have an unaltered chance of detecting a cloaked ship, like 1 in 10 (or even less).  A probe is automated, and should be unaffected by officer skills, and even computer level.
2.  All computers should have a chance of detecting a cloaked ship, with the lowest having a pathetically poor chance, but still a chance, nonetheless.  This way that little frigate with the legendary Ops officer still has a tiny chance of detecting a cloaked ship.
3.  Cloaking/decloaking times should be altered.  Four seconds, as one person said, is a bit long.  But let's put a little racial flavor here.  Klingons use the cloak to enter battle, but once in battle, they are rarely willing to leave, so, perhaps a one second decloak with a three second cloak for Klingons.  Romulans are more likely to sneak away after their attack, so perhaps a one second cloak and three second decloak for Romulans (or, since Romulans are the masters of cloaking technology, maybe even a two second cloak and two second decloak).

The last thing I want to see is Taldren take the Funcom approach to "fixing" a problem by overdoing it, and then making a second patch to actually balance it like it should have been done with the first patch.
It won't really take much to make the cloak a very useful piece of technology.  Just fix the various cloak bugs that currently exist, and slightly (SLIGHTLY) improve the cloak itself.
 

[Rota]

Maybe a more realist approach would be to make a cloaked ship far more difficult to hit.
I think the idea of finding a cloaked ship with a probe to be a little off(or atleast I never saw it on TNG)
I did however see Data discover one with a modified torp(I think). They should eliminate the probe and stay with the computer and sensor detection. If a cloaked ship is discovered, the tactical officer should have to attempt a manual targeting solution and
roll the dice. The chance for hit should then decrease by let's say an additional 25% for phasers and 50% for torps.
Just a thought  

[Firestorm]

Quote:
Maybe a more realist approach would be to make a cloaked ship far more difficult to hit.
I think the idea of finding a cloaked ship with a probe to be a little off(or atleast I never saw it on TNG)
I did however see Data discover one with a modified torp(I think). They should eliminate the probe and stay with the computer and sensor detection. If a cloaked ship is discovered, the tactical officer should have to attempt a manual targeting solution and
roll the dice. The chance for hit should then decrease by let's say an additional 25% for phasers and 50% for torps.
Just a thought  

Interesting concept, but the intended purpose of cloak is to be able to setup attack runs, to get into position while stealthed, unseen.   The way it is now, you can't cloak and setup any kind of tactical run.  Your opponent always knows where you are, thus making the cloak worthless.

Agreed, that once a cloaked ship is detected(which needs to be adjusted as I proposed at the beginning of this thread) and they are fired upon while cloaked, the chance of the weapon actually hitting the cloaked target should be greatly reduced.  Right now, I see no reduction in accuracy when targeting a cloaked ship.  Phasers still almost always hit.

The phase in and out of cloak times need to be cut in half because that is when most damage is done is that transition time when the ship is targetable, but does not yet have shields up yet.  That is the way it is suppose to work, that time just needs to be shortened.

[Tulmahk]

Very interesting ideas here.

By way of using the cloak effectively as is, remember to keep your speed to 1/2 impulse at most, preferrably much less if you possibly can.  Also, avoid warping under cloak as this greatly increases your chances of being detected.  The exception to this is if you are retreating, of course.  If you must cloak and decloak within weapons range, make sure you're using Evasive Maneuvers during the transitions (remembering to turn it off before firing weapons).  Its effect isn't that great, and mostly dependent upon the skill of your Helmsman, but every little bit helps.  Also consider using Evasive Maneuvers while under cloak when in your enemy's weapons range.  Again, it won't help that much, but it will help some, escpecially if your Helmsman is highly skilled.

Still, improving the cloak is an absolute must even with all this to help.  When Fed players regularly say the cloak needs to be improved, it  really needs to be improved.
 

[Cleaven]

Absolute speed, not relative speed, should be what you have to consider for avoiding detection. Why should it be okay for a ship with maximum impulse of 50 to move at 20 with less chance of detection than a ship with max impulse of 20 moving at 15. Obviously there are other factors like warp core size and hull mass to be considered when detecting cloaked vessels but relative speed should not be a factor.

Quote:
Very interesting ideas here.

By way of using the cloak effectively as is, remember to keep your speed to 1/2 impulse at most, preferrably much less if you possibly can.  Also, avoid warping under cloak as this greatly increases your chances of being detected.  The exception to this is if you are retreating, of course.  If you must cloak and decloak within weapons range, make sure you're using Evasive Maneuvers during the transitions (remembering to turn it off before firing weapons).  Its effect isn't that great, and mostly dependent upon the skill of your Helmsman, but every little bit helps.  Also consider using Evasive Maneuvers while under cloak when in your enemy's weapons range.  Again, it won't help that much, but it will help some, escpecially if your Helmsman is highly skilled.

Still, improving the cloak is an absolute must even with all this to help.  When Fed players regularly say the cloak needs to be improved, it  really needs to be improved.
   

 

[Firestorm]

   

• The obvious fix is that cloak needs to be stronger and/or anti-cloak needs to be much weaker.  Cloak is way too easily detected currently.
  
• Someone posted in another thread way back when, that phase in/out should be about 2 seconds.  At the time, I thought that still seemed like way too long, but I have recently timed the phase in/out of a Vor'cha with Legendary officers is about 4 seconds.  So, I reconsider that two seconds(about half the current time) should be sufficient to balance out that part of the cloak problems.   It is at least a good place to start and go from there.
  
• The patch is already suppose to weaken the probes capability of dectecting cloak, and I haven't experienced that enough yet to know if it was sufficient or not.
  

IMO:
I think the cloak/anti-cloak strength should be fixed this way:

• Level-5 cloak - not detectable with any computer, only by probes.
• Level-4 cloak - detectable with level-5 computer and by probes.
• Level-3 cloak - detectable with level-4 computer or better and by probes.
• Level-2 cloak - detectable with level-3 computer or better and by probes.
• Level-1 cloak - detectable with level-2 computer or better and by probes.
  

     

[Xantim]

I would have it more like this:

-lvl5 detectable by lvl5 computer
-lvl4 detectable by lvl5 computer and probes
-lvl3 detectable by lvl4+ computer and probes
-lvl2 detectable by lvl4+ computer and probes(wider arc)
-lvl1 detectable by lvl4+ comuter and by probes(very wide arc)

Also computer 5 gets a bonus on lvl3 computers down (the lower the better)
Also computer 4 gets a bonus on lvl2 computers down (the lower the better)

Officers also give bonuses to probe arc and % of anti-cloak scans.
Officer of same lvl negates enemy bonus and if better makes probe arc and comuter scans less effective.  

[Firestorm]

 
That doesn't sufficiently address the problem with anti-cloak being too strong.  That is basically what we have now.  All things equal, cloak will be detected.  That just doesn't work strategically.  It negates the cloak too much.
   

[EE]

The real problem comes from this. Klingons and Romulans have 5 systems in their hull and bridge system where the Federation and borg have only 4.

if you had equal space on each ships for each location, the Federation will always have a easier time detecting you then you have hiding because you have to alocate less space per item then the Fed's/Borg.

I think there would need to be one of two things done. Make anti-cloak scan its own system like the cloak or require a level 5 computer to be the equivilant of what a level 4 computer can detect now. With the addition of probes, I dont see this as a probem since they have two ways to detect and only 4 systems in their bridge/hull system area.

[lloyd007]

I like yor ideas firestorm except that we shoulddn't make LVL 5 cloak invincible which with probes reduced would basically be that effect. instead it shoud be range and size dependent where a BOP or Talon with only a lvl 1 or two cloak has the eqivalent of a lvl 4 or 5 cloak on say a Warbird. Different level computers would only have a chance to detect out to a certain range so for example if I had a lvl 5 cloaked WB with all legendary the max detatable range would be very small like 10 or something even with an opposing lvl 5 comp with legendary officers while if I had a WB with lvl 1 cloak and green officers vs a lvl 5 computer I could be detected to nearly the max scanner range etc. All comps would have anticloak tech but it would be a fixed ability not modified by ship size.

Here is my table

(lvl 5 is the highest lvl cloak so going above just wastes space)

FF with lvl one or two cloak has equivalent lvl 4 or 5 cloak
DD with lvl one two or thee cloak has lvl 3, 4 or 5
CL with lvl two or three or four cloak has equivalent 3,4,5 cloak
CA with lvl three or four has equivalent four or five cloak and a penalty carrying a lvl 1 cloak
CH with lvl 4 cloak has equivalent of lvl five and a penalty with lvl 1 or 2 (i.e. it is easier to detect with these weak cloaks)
DN has a penalty to lvl 1,2,3 cloaks and normal for 4 and 5 cloak

Anyone think this is a good idea? Giving bonuses to the smaller ships means that they can get a good cloak without penalizing them too much for carrying a fifth bridge system. Cloaks should have larger steppings in mass and cost though  

[Tannhauser]

The problem is that the cloak is too weak right now.  Unfortunately, many of the things people are asking for would take it to the other extreme and make it far too strong.  
Here's my two slips of gold-pressed latinum:
1.  Probes should have a very weak chance of detecting a cloaked ship.  After all, they have a long range, and they move quickly.  Perhaps if a probe detects a cloaked ship, it could then track the ship until the probe burns out (obviously, the cloaked ship will know if a probe is following it).  In this case, a probe should have an unaltered chance of detecting a cloaked ship, like 1 in 10 (or even less).  A probe is automated, and should be unaffected by officer skills, and even computer level.
2.  All computers should have a chance of detecting a cloaked ship, with the lowest having a pathetically poor chance, but still a chance, nonetheless.  This way that little frigate with the legendary Ops officer still has a tiny chance of detecting a cloaked ship.
3.  Cloaking/decloaking times should be altered.  Four seconds, as one person said, is a bit long.  But let's put a little racial flavor here.  Klingons use the cloak to enter battle, but once in battle, they are rarely willing to leave, so, perhaps a one second decloak with a three second cloak for Klingons.  Romulans are more likely to sneak away after their attack, so perhaps a one second cloak and three second decloak for Romulans (or, since Romulans are the masters of cloaking technology, maybe even a two second cloak and two second decloak).

The last thing I want to see is Taldren take the Funcom approach to "fixing" a problem by overdoing it, and then making a second patch to actually balance it like it should have been done with the first patch.
It won't really take much to make the cloak a very useful piece of technology.  Just fix the various cloak bugs that currently exist, and slightly (SLIGHTLY) improve the cloak itself.
 

[Rota]

Maybe a more realist approach would be to make a cloaked ship far more difficult to hit.
I think the idea of finding a cloaked ship with a probe to be a little off(or atleast I never saw it on TNG)
I did however see Data discover one with a modified torp(I think). They should eliminate the probe and stay with the computer and sensor detection. If a cloaked ship is discovered, the tactical officer should have to attempt a manual targeting solution and
roll the dice. The chance for hit should then decrease by let's say an additional 25% for phasers and 50% for torps.
Just a thought  

[Firestorm]

Quote:
Maybe a more realist approach would be to make a cloaked ship far more difficult to hit.
I think the idea of finding a cloaked ship with a probe to be a little off(or atleast I never saw it on TNG)
I did however see Data discover one with a modified torp(I think). They should eliminate the probe and stay with the computer and sensor detection. If a cloaked ship is discovered, the tactical officer should have to attempt a manual targeting solution and
roll the dice. The chance for hit should then decrease by let's say an additional 25% for phasers and 50% for torps.
Just a thought  

Interesting concept, but the intended purpose of cloak is to be able to setup attack runs, to get into position while stealthed, unseen.   The way it is now, you can't cloak and setup any kind of tactical run.  Your opponent always knows where you are, thus making the cloak worthless.

Agreed, that once a cloaked ship is detected(which needs to be adjusted as I proposed at the beginning of this thread) and they are fired upon while cloaked, the chance of the weapon actually hitting the cloaked target should be greatly reduced.  Right now, I see no reduction in accuracy when targeting a cloaked ship.  Phasers still almost always hit.

The phase in and out of cloak times need to be cut in half because that is when most damage is done is that transition time when the ship is targetable, but does not yet have shields up yet.  That is the way it is suppose to work, that time just needs to be shortened.

[Tulmahk]

Very interesting ideas here.

By way of using the cloak effectively as is, remember to keep your speed to 1/2 impulse at most, preferrably much less if you possibly can.  Also, avoid warping under cloak as this greatly increases your chances of being detected.  The exception to this is if you are retreating, of course.  If you must cloak and decloak within weapons range, make sure you're using Evasive Maneuvers during the transitions (remembering to turn it off before firing weapons).  Its effect isn't that great, and mostly dependent upon the skill of your Helmsman, but every little bit helps.  Also consider using Evasive Maneuvers while under cloak when in your enemy's weapons range.  Again, it won't help that much, but it will help some, escpecially if your Helmsman is highly skilled.

Still, improving the cloak is an absolute must even with all this to help.  When Fed players regularly say the cloak needs to be improved, it  really needs to be improved.
 

[Cleaven]

Absolute speed, not relative speed, should be what you have to consider for avoiding detection. Why should it be okay for a ship with maximum impulse of 50 to move at 20 with less chance of detection than a ship with max impulse of 20 moving at 15. Obviously there are other factors like warp core size and hull mass to be considered when detecting cloaked vessels but relative speed should not be a factor.

Quote:
Very interesting ideas here.

By way of using the cloak effectively as is, remember to keep your speed to 1/2 impulse at most, preferrably much less if you possibly can.  Also, avoid warping under cloak as this greatly increases your chances of being detected.  The exception to this is if you are retreating, of course.  If you must cloak and decloak within weapons range, make sure you're using Evasive Maneuvers during the transitions (remembering to turn it off before firing weapons).  Its effect isn't that great, and mostly dependent upon the skill of your Helmsman, but every little bit helps.  Also consider using Evasive Maneuvers while under cloak when in your enemy's weapons range.  Again, it won't help that much, but it will help some, escpecially if your Helmsman is highly skilled.

Still, improving the cloak is an absolute must even with all this to help.  When Fed players regularly say the cloak needs to be improved, it  really needs to be improved.