Topic: Who thinks the L and R arcs in SFC2/OP should be made to work? (Read 6812 times)

Atrahasis · « **on:** October 11, 2003, 11:22:55 pm »

The L and R arcs are respectively original SFB 60-degree arcs that fire straight to the port and staright to the starboard. However, these arcs do not exist in SFC....if you try to use them they turn out to be 360-degree arcs in game.

Having these arcs implemented would solve a lot of philopshical problems and we would finally be able to implement true-to-life specs for Federation ships, for those of us who like to fiddle with the shiplists. For example, a TMP-era Enterprise-class starship has 12 saucer phasers: 4 port, 4 fwd, 4 starboard. This is easily verified by visual inspection of the actual studio model. However, the problem is this: the side phasers, if they are assigned the FLL and FRR arcs like they usually are, can fire directly fwd, which means all 12 saucer phasers can fire directly fwd, which makes the ship hideously strong. Also, there are an additional 4 phasers under the secondary hull that if assigned a 360 arc can also fire fwd, and so you have a total of 16 Phaser-I's or Phaser-X's (depending on what kind of specs you use) able to fire directly fwd. This in a nutshell unbalances the game, and so speccing a true TMP Fed becomes problematic, because for some TMP Fed ship designs, even Frigates such as the Knox and Daran have those 12 saucer phasers. However, if we have the L and the R arcs, then those side phasers can no longer fire directly fwd, and for ships that have 12 saucer phasers, only 4 of them can fire directly fwd, which preserves the balance more. You would also be able to properly spec the Miranda as well, which should have only the roll-bar mounted Heavy Phasers and the 4 fwd saucer phasers able to fire directly fwd, (along with the fwd torps), but with the present arcs if you give it its true-to-life 12 saucer phasers all 12 of them can fire directly fwd.....which makes it atrociously strong.

So how about it? Can we get the L and R arcs in an upcoming patch for OP? truth to tell, this is the one factor that has discouraged me from making a complete TMP true-to-life mod package for the game.

ActiveX · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2003, 11:25:56 pm »

I'd like to see 60 degree arcs in SFC3...

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2003, 02:41:12 am »

I'd very much like to see this. I was working on a mod for a short bit that would have required these arcs. When I found that they didn't actually work, I dropped it. It would sure be nice to get back to it. I was hoping maybe it would be in the last patch, but no such luck. I wonder how hard it would be to put them in?

Captain Ron · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2003, 02:54:09 am »

I am for fixing anything in the game that doesn't work properly so I can support this one. The arguement to me really doesn't have merit as the game is meant to mimic a board game to some degree and the 12 phasers would not really happen in the the game. If the arcs do not work properly then that is still a bug in the code that I would like to see fixed.

As for the arcs in SFC 3 those if I remember right can be edited.

ActiveX · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2003, 03:19:50 am »

Actually i meant 120 arcs in SFC3, already have 60s...

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2003, 07:48:08 am »

One more patch please

I'd love to see Atrahasis' TMP project come to life!

KF

atheorhaven · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2003, 01:46:02 pm »

Well, there's certainly visual evidence to support this.. in TWOK itself, there's a good scene with the Big E spinning (slowly) on it's vertical axis and her phaser fire swivelling from forward-left type arc to straight out from the left side of the ship. So there's certainly canon evidence of this, plus tactically, it simply makes sense (and creates a weapons blind spot if it's not present).

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2003, 02:51:37 pm »

Does the term Pi$$ing iton the wind mean anything to you??

what exactly doesn't work about the Left and right arcs?? Are you wanting the L+R arcs?? as in shoot out both sides of the ship but not front or back?? I think the L+R arcs were used in SFC on maybe 2 ships and they were both fire support ships intended to orbit a stationary target and pound it with broadsides.

And who's to say that just because there are 4 ports there that there are more than 2 actual phaser units?? Maybe there are just to ports for each one to allow for a broader field of fire. Also, who says the side phasers couldn't fire forwad as well. What if the ship angled a bit on it's Z axis nose down a bitthey'd easily be able to access the front arc as well. Don't restrict yourself to much by saying they never did it in the shows or movies. They didn't do a lot of things on the shows, like taking a crap. But I'm guessing thats something they can do as well Canon or not.

As for no ship like the Enterprise class not having 16 phasers in SFB, I guess no one remembers the original CCX from Expansion #1 YIKES!!!

FireSoul · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2003, 03:10:08 pm »

When the LR arc was asked, I didn't realize the L or R arcs, separate, were not in the game. Sorry about that.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2003, 04:43:03 pm »

Yeah, the L and R arcs do not work in the game. If they did though, they'd be instrumental in making the most accurate ship specs ever.

Grim Reaper · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2003, 08:53:59 am »

You've got my vote A

JayMoles · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2003, 04:09:46 pm »

I vote YES as well... I was wondering about this very item, but hadn't looked into it.

Thanks Atra!!

Atrahasis · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:41:35 pm »

Let's have a camp-out and sing songs, they may take notice.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:44:41 pm »

Discussion on the inclusion of the L and R arcs in SFC
Will the game be greatly improved and allow for more glorious MOD permutations unlike any other tweak before, if the L and R arcs are implemented?
It won't change or matter much if they are implemented.

Tumulorum Fossor · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:56:38 pm »

Man, you sure have got some cajones to be requesting ANOTHER patch...
...not that I wouldn't mind seeing some firing arc tweaks. Yeah, I'd love to see it.

But I wouldn't hold my breathe.

I have, however, been proven wrong in these things before. For instance, I NEVER thought cloak would be fixed to the state it has been. So I suppose it COULD happen. Can't hurt to ask, I guess, so long as we make it clear that this is above-and-beyond-the-call of duty type stuff.

Man, I love this game!

-TF

nx_adam_1701 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:11:09 pm »

I agree, I love to see them implemented,

adam out

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2003, 10:24:31 am »

Hey, if it gives them and excuse/chance to change the drone release dates back to what they used to be, I'd love to see these arcs added.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:21:42 pm »

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:45:47 pm »

Not only would they help for the Feds saucer phasers, but they'd be good for heavies as well. It would allow for some more sensible bombardment designs.

As was stated earlier though, this would no doubt be WAY "above and beyond" anything that we'd have a right to expect from Taldren. It would be nice though.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:45:47 pm »

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #20 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:31:34 pm »

Just to let you guys know, I'd been asking (more like begging) Dave to add graphics for the starbase weapon arcs to the new SFC3 patch we are testing. He came back to me a few days later with a list of new arcs that were added to the game, complete with UI graphics so we can mod them into our ships. Here is the complete list of new arcs that are already in the new patch , as of several weeks ago.

0_360_Arc,
0_60_Arc,
60_120_Arc,
120_180_Arc,
180_240_Arc,
240_300_Arc,
300_360_Arc,
30_90_Arc,
90_150_Arc,
150_210_Arc,
210_270_Arc,
270_330_Arc,
330_30_Arc,
345_15_Arc,
165_195_Arc,
0_120_Arc, //FRR
120_240_Arc, //RA
240_360_Arc, //FLL
60_180_Arc, //RRR
180_300_Arc, //LLR
300_60_Arc, //FA
0_90_Arc,
90_180_Arc,
180_270_Arc,
270_360_Arc,
0_180_Arc, //RS
180_360_Arc, //LS
270_90_Arc, //FH
90_270_Arc, //RH
240_120_Arc, //FX
60_300_Arc, //RX
330_150_Arc, //RP
210_30_Arc, //LP
300_120_Arc, //FAR
240_60_Arc, //FAL
270_120_Arc, //FHR
240_90_Arc, //FHL
0_240_Arc, //RWX
120_360_Arc, //LWX
60_240_Arc, //RAR
120_300_Arc, //RAL

I_Mudd · « **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:55:29 pm »

Petition signed. It would mix things up a bit.

I_Mudd.

ActiveX · « **Reply #22 on:** October 15, 2003, 03:03:04 pm »

You got my 'Hell Yeah'...

Atrahasis · « **Reply #23 on:** October 15, 2003, 05:51:33 pm »

Atrahasis · « **Reply #24 on:** October 16, 2003, 08:56:26 pm »

All I'm saying is: something to consider for next time.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #25 on:** October 18, 2003, 08:30:20 am »

Another point that was raised by a friend of mine:

If TMP Fed ships can have 12 phasers, as they should, on the saucer hull, then that would reduce the need for having ADD's on TMP Fed ships. In fact, having 12 phasers would be so much better than having ADD's which can shoot at only 1 target at a time and eventually run out of ammo. With 12 phasers, a Fed ship can shoot down incomings and still have shots left over to strike at the real targets.

Which brings up another point: Don't ADD's make fighters and carriers not as fun to play? Automatic fire from ADD's at relatively long range sort of takes the fun out of using your fighters and carrier against an enemy.

Whereas if a Fed ship just has a lot of phasers, it becomes more fun for the Fed as well as the enemy. For the Fed, he now has enough real firepower to take out a lot of those fighters, but in order to do that he'd have to get pretty close to them. For the enemy carrier, at least the fighters are tying up the Fed's firepower because there aren't any ADD's to rely on.

Not that all races should get rid off ADD's, but TMP Feds can definitely do without them if they have enough phasers....this is speaking strictly in terms of modified specs and shiplists of course. The L and R arcs would allow TMP Fed ships to have 12 phasers and yet not unbalance the game all out of proportion.

WillWeasel · « **Reply #26 on:** November 18, 2003, 12:02:25 pm »

It would seem Dave Ferrel does

( this is an answer to the question in the topic)

Check here and yer wish is granted http://forums.taldren.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=215239&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

nx_adam_1701 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 18, 2003, 02:52:13 pm »

L and R, yes would make my Akira accurate, L and R torps lol lol

adam out

Reven · « **Reply #28 on:** November 25, 2003, 01:34:16 am »

I don't understand why on earth they didn't include arbitrary arcs and be done with it. It would have been trivial, programming-wise to do.

[Edit] By this I mean allow N1_N2 arcs where N1 is any angle and N2 is any angle. If you assume that N2 is always > N1 (ie: clockwise), then it is trivial programming. If the arc "graphics" aren't already dynamically generated, it's a waste of storage space. The routine to draw it would take far less space than storing all the arc graphics. Then you don't have people bugging for new arcs - you can make whatever ones you want. The astonishing thing to me is that no one thought to do this before.

nx_adam_1701 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 25, 2003, 10:52:11 pm »

Shoulda Coulda Woulda, but they didnt lol lol

adam out

Sethan · « **Reply #30 on:** November 26, 2003, 12:40:40 pm »

Quote:

I don't understand why on earth they didn't include arbitrary arcs and be done with it. It would have been trivial, programming-wise to do.

Could have been done, but the programmers may not have thought of it at the time. Also, several of the SFB arcs that were included in OP could not be made using that method.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #31 on:** October 11, 2003, 11:22:55 pm »

The L and R arcs are respectively original SFB 60-degree arcs that fire straight to the port and staright to the starboard. However, these arcs do not exist in SFC....if you try to use them they turn out to be 360-degree arcs in game.

Having these arcs implemented would solve a lot of philopshical problems and we would finally be able to implement true-to-life specs for Federation ships, for those of us who like to fiddle with the shiplists. For example, a TMP-era Enterprise-class starship has 12 saucer phasers: 4 port, 4 fwd, 4 starboard. This is easily verified by visual inspection of the actual studio model. However, the problem is this: the side phasers, if they are assigned the FLL and FRR arcs like they usually are, can fire directly fwd, which means all 12 saucer phasers can fire directly fwd, which makes the ship hideously strong. Also, there are an additional 4 phasers under the secondary hull that if assigned a 360 arc can also fire fwd, and so you have a total of 16 Phaser-I's or Phaser-X's (depending on what kind of specs you use) able to fire directly fwd. This in a nutshell unbalances the game, and so speccing a true TMP Fed becomes problematic, because for some TMP Fed ship designs, even Frigates such as the Knox and Daran have those 12 saucer phasers. However, if we have the L and the R arcs, then those side phasers can no longer fire directly fwd, and for ships that have 12 saucer phasers, only 4 of them can fire directly fwd, which preserves the balance more. You would also be able to properly spec the Miranda as well, which should have only the roll-bar mounted Heavy Phasers and the 4 fwd saucer phasers able to fire directly fwd, (along with the fwd torps), but with the present arcs if you give it its true-to-life 12 saucer phasers all 12 of them can fire directly fwd.....which makes it atrociously strong.

So how about it? Can we get the L and R arcs in an upcoming patch for OP? truth to tell, this is the one factor that has discouraged me from making a complete TMP true-to-life mod package for the game.

ActiveX · « **Reply #32 on:** October 11, 2003, 11:25:56 pm »

I'd like to see 60 degree arcs in SFC3...

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #33 on:** October 12, 2003, 02:41:12 am »

I'd very much like to see this. I was working on a mod for a short bit that would have required these arcs. When I found that they didn't actually work, I dropped it. It would sure be nice to get back to it. I was hoping maybe it would be in the last patch, but no such luck. I wonder how hard it would be to put them in?

Captain Ron · « **Reply #34 on:** October 12, 2003, 02:54:09 am »

I am for fixing anything in the game that doesn't work properly so I can support this one. The arguement to me really doesn't have merit as the game is meant to mimic a board game to some degree and the 12 phasers would not really happen in the the game. If the arcs do not work properly then that is still a bug in the code that I would like to see fixed.

As for the arcs in SFC 3 those if I remember right can be edited.

ActiveX · « **Reply #35 on:** October 12, 2003, 03:19:50 am »

Actually i meant 120 arcs in SFC3, already have 60s...

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #36 on:** October 12, 2003, 07:48:08 am »

One more patch please

I'd love to see Atrahasis' TMP project come to life!

KF

atheorhaven · « **Reply #37 on:** October 12, 2003, 01:46:02 pm »

Well, there's certainly visual evidence to support this.. in TWOK itself, there's a good scene with the Big E spinning (slowly) on it's vertical axis and her phaser fire swivelling from forward-left type arc to straight out from the left side of the ship. So there's certainly canon evidence of this, plus tactically, it simply makes sense (and creates a weapons blind spot if it's not present).

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 12, 2003, 02:51:37 pm »

Does the term Pi$$ing iton the wind mean anything to you??

what exactly doesn't work about the Left and right arcs?? Are you wanting the L+R arcs?? as in shoot out both sides of the ship but not front or back?? I think the L+R arcs were used in SFC on maybe 2 ships and they were both fire support ships intended to orbit a stationary target and pound it with broadsides.

And who's to say that just because there are 4 ports there that there are more than 2 actual phaser units?? Maybe there are just to ports for each one to allow for a broader field of fire. Also, who says the side phasers couldn't fire forwad as well. What if the ship angled a bit on it's Z axis nose down a bitthey'd easily be able to access the front arc as well. Don't restrict yourself to much by saying they never did it in the shows or movies. They didn't do a lot of things on the shows, like taking a crap. But I'm guessing thats something they can do as well Canon or not.

As for no ship like the Enterprise class not having 16 phasers in SFB, I guess no one remembers the original CCX from Expansion #1 YIKES!!!

FireSoul · « **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2003, 03:10:08 pm »

When the LR arc was asked, I didn't realize the L or R arcs, separate, were not in the game. Sorry about that.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2003, 04:43:03 pm »

Yeah, the L and R arcs do not work in the game. If they did though, they'd be instrumental in making the most accurate ship specs ever.

Grim Reaper · « **Reply #41 on:** October 13, 2003, 08:53:59 am »

You've got my vote A

JayMoles · « **Reply #42 on:** October 13, 2003, 04:09:46 pm »

I vote YES as well... I was wondering about this very item, but hadn't looked into it.

Thanks Atra!!

Atrahasis · « **Reply #43 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:41:35 pm »

Let's have a camp-out and sing songs, they may take notice.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #44 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:44:41 pm »

Tumulorum Fossor · « **Reply #45 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:56:38 pm »

Man, you sure have got some cajones to be requesting ANOTHER patch...
...not that I wouldn't mind seeing some firing arc tweaks. Yeah, I'd love to see it.

But I wouldn't hold my breathe.

I have, however, been proven wrong in these things before. For instance, I NEVER thought cloak would be fixed to the state it has been. So I suppose it COULD happen. Can't hurt to ask, I guess, so long as we make it clear that this is above-and-beyond-the-call of duty type stuff.

Man, I love this game!

-TF

nx_adam_1701 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:11:09 pm »

I agree, I love to see them implemented,

adam out

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #47 on:** October 14, 2003, 10:24:31 am »

Hey, if it gives them and excuse/chance to change the drone release dates back to what they used to be, I'd love to see these arcs added.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #48 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:21:42 pm »

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #49 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:45:47 pm »

Not only would they help for the Feds saucer phasers, but they'd be good for heavies as well. It would allow for some more sensible bombardment designs.

As was stated earlier though, this would no doubt be WAY "above and beyond" anything that we'd have a right to expect from Taldren. It would be nice though.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #50 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:45:47 pm »

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #51 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:31:34 pm »

Just to let you guys know, I'd been asking (more like begging) Dave to add graphics for the starbase weapon arcs to the new SFC3 patch we are testing. He came back to me a few days later with a list of new arcs that were added to the game, complete with UI graphics so we can mod them into our ships. Here is the complete list of new arcs that are already in the new patch , as of several weeks ago.

0_360_Arc,
0_60_Arc,
60_120_Arc,
120_180_Arc,
180_240_Arc,
240_300_Arc,
300_360_Arc,
30_90_Arc,
90_150_Arc,
150_210_Arc,
210_270_Arc,
270_330_Arc,
330_30_Arc,
345_15_Arc,
165_195_Arc,
0_120_Arc, //FRR
120_240_Arc, //RA
240_360_Arc, //FLL
60_180_Arc, //RRR
180_300_Arc, //LLR
300_60_Arc, //FA
0_90_Arc,
90_180_Arc,
180_270_Arc,
270_360_Arc,
0_180_Arc, //RS
180_360_Arc, //LS
270_90_Arc, //FH
90_270_Arc, //RH
240_120_Arc, //FX
60_300_Arc, //RX
330_150_Arc, //RP
210_30_Arc, //LP
300_120_Arc, //FAR
240_60_Arc, //FAL
270_120_Arc, //FHR
240_90_Arc, //FHL
0_240_Arc, //RWX
120_360_Arc, //LWX
60_240_Arc, //RAR
120_300_Arc, //RAL

I_Mudd · « **Reply #52 on:** October 15, 2003, 01:55:29 pm »

Petition signed. It would mix things up a bit.

I_Mudd.

ActiveX · « **Reply #53 on:** October 15, 2003, 03:03:04 pm »

You got my 'Hell Yeah'...

Atrahasis · « **Reply #54 on:** October 15, 2003, 05:51:33 pm »

Atrahasis · « **Reply #55 on:** October 16, 2003, 08:56:26 pm »

All I'm saying is: something to consider for next time.

Atrahasis · « **Reply #56 on:** October 18, 2003, 08:30:20 am »

Another point that was raised by a friend of mine:

If TMP Fed ships can have 12 phasers, as they should, on the saucer hull, then that would reduce the need for having ADD's on TMP Fed ships. In fact, having 12 phasers would be so much better than having ADD's which can shoot at only 1 target at a time and eventually run out of ammo. With 12 phasers, a Fed ship can shoot down incomings and still have shots left over to strike at the real targets.

Which brings up another point: Don't ADD's make fighters and carriers not as fun to play? Automatic fire from ADD's at relatively long range sort of takes the fun out of using your fighters and carrier against an enemy.

Whereas if a Fed ship just has a lot of phasers, it becomes more fun for the Fed as well as the enemy. For the Fed, he now has enough real firepower to take out a lot of those fighters, but in order to do that he'd have to get pretty close to them. For the enemy carrier, at least the fighters are tying up the Fed's firepower because there aren't any ADD's to rely on.

Not that all races should get rid off ADD's, but TMP Feds can definitely do without them if they have enough phasers....this is speaking strictly in terms of modified specs and shiplists of course. The L and R arcs would allow TMP Fed ships to have 12 phasers and yet not unbalance the game all out of proportion.

WillWeasel · « **Reply #57 on:** November 18, 2003, 12:02:25 pm »

It would seem Dave Ferrel does

( this is an answer to the question in the topic)

Check here and yer wish is granted http://forums.taldren.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=215239&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

nx_adam_1701 · « **Reply #58 on:** November 18, 2003, 02:52:13 pm »

L and R, yes would make my Akira accurate, L and R torps lol lol

adam out

Reven · « **Reply #59 on:** November 25, 2003, 01:34:16 am »

I don't understand why on earth they didn't include arbitrary arcs and be done with it. It would have been trivial, programming-wise to do.

[Edit] By this I mean allow N1_N2 arcs where N1 is any angle and N2 is any angle. If you assume that N2 is always > N1 (ie: clockwise), then it is trivial programming. If the arc "graphics" aren't already dynamically generated, it's a waste of storage space. The routine to draw it would take far less space than storing all the arc graphics. Then you don't have people bugging for new arcs - you can make whatever ones you want. The astonishing thing to me is that no one thought to do this before.

nx_adam_1701 · « **Reply #60 on:** November 25, 2003, 10:52:11 pm »

Shoulda Coulda Woulda, but they didnt lol lol

adam out

Sethan · « **Reply #61 on:** November 26, 2003, 12:40:40 pm »

Quote:

I don't understand why on earth they didn't include arbitrary arcs and be done with it. It would have been trivial, programming-wise to do.

Could have been done, but the programmers may not have thought of it at the time. Also, several of the SFB arcs that were included in OP could not be made using that method.

News:

Topic: Who thinks the L and R arcs in SFC2/OP should be made to work? (Read 6812 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Atrahasis

ActiveX

EmeraldEdge

Captain Ron

ActiveX

Klingon Fanatic

atheorhaven

jimmi7769

FireSoul

Atrahasis

Grim Reaper

JayMoles

Atrahasis

Atrahasis

Tumulorum Fossor

nx_adam_1701

Dogmatix!

Atrahasis

Rod O'neal

Atrahasis

Captain KoraH

I_Mudd

ActiveX

Atrahasis

Atrahasis

Atrahasis

WillWeasel

nx_adam_1701

Reven

nx_adam_1701

Sethan

Atrahasis

ActiveX

EmeraldEdge

Captain Ron

ActiveX

Klingon Fanatic

atheorhaven

jimmi7769

FireSoul

Atrahasis

Grim Reaper

JayMoles

Atrahasis

Atrahasis

Tumulorum Fossor

nx_adam_1701

Dogmatix!

Atrahasis

Rod O'neal

Atrahasis

Captain KoraH

I_Mudd

ActiveX

Atrahasis

Atrahasis

Atrahasis

WillWeasel

nx_adam_1701

Reven

nx_adam_1701

Sethan

Topic: Who thinks the L and R arcs in SFC2/OP should be made to work? (Read 6812 times)