Topic: A Round of Applause for the Taldren Admins

[ActiveX]

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Poster: JayBee

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It isnt a matter of it being hard, its a matter of being good at it.

I dont have to do it to know I can do better.  

How do you know it is not hard?  How do you know that you could do it better?   I know from experience that it is much harder than people think.  

When  you are a moderator every time you delete or edit a message, thread or member you will be flamed.   You will get everything from insults to death threats.  On the other hand for the very same incident you will be complimented.   It can be very difficult to be fair when the personal attacks start.  Can you keep your cool and moderate without passion but with justice and fairplay?  When you or your personal "sacred cows" get attacked can you be objective and fair?  Can you be fair and consistent when you are sick, hung over or lacking sleep?  

How many of our regulars would you trust to moderate?  I would trust very few of them, because few actually have the ability to moderate without the forums becoming a wide open flame fest (then abandoned) or so censored that again they become abandoned.    

I Mod the busiest section of a forum with close to 10 thousand members (9953 last time I looked) and what you just described is not nearly as common as you make it out to be...  

Just curious: What's the average daily post count and length? And what is the primary focus of this forum you moderate?  

See for yourself: http://www.tombraiderforums.com

Yes I know its a TR forum...

We had a big problem with punks not long ago when AoD (total crap btw) came out...

Oh, and I'm Draco there...

[Toasty0]

LOL...I gotta say that in light of our discussion here I found this blurb for your OT forum halarious.

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General discussion on Tomb Raider or anything else. Keep it litigation-free!

   

[ActiveX]

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LOL...I gotta say that in light of our discussion here I found this blurb for your OT forum halarious.

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General discussion on Tomb Raider or anything else. Keep it litigation-free!

   

 

Hehe...

[KATChuutRitt]

Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

[TheBigCheese]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

[KATChuutRitt]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

[Pestalence]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

Chutt,

no disrespect intended, but Taldren reserves the right to ban anyone they choose for any reason when they fell like doing so.. it is their privaledge as owners of the Forums... If the current Admins have a listing of trouble makers on this forum as created by David Ferrell when he controlled the boards(I'm not saying that there is, but it is possible), then that is a mark already against them.. and I am sure David would have listed the troublesome posting and thread each time the Terms of Service were violated (if such a list exhists), and as such, there is a record based on user name. Heck there are records of every post ever made and logs of IP addresses and Emaiol addresses that Taldren can draw history on any poster on this Forum or even the old Forum as they have the old Forum Archived for reference. Heck, you can retrieve all postings since this forum started just by using the search function and enter someone's name.. or click on a name and then click on User's postings to get a list.. makes it simple to review people's posting habbits and behaviors. If a person is repeatedly banned/Moderated, then Taldren need not give any explanation at all per Terms of service and the issue involved is between solely Taldren and the violator and is not open to public debate or reposting contriversial threads.posts. I think this applies to the Privacy Act of 1974 which covers records... each post is considered a record once the post is finalized, IE: sent to the forum for public view....  Reposting a deleted thread or post from the Archive could result in a Privacy Act lawsuit due to personal records of a Forum user, Preseent or Former, thus allowing for suit agains the moderator/admin if not the company itself....
The deal is done so I wouldn't expect too much to be done anymore on this subject as Taldren made a decision in the best intrests of their company, and as such it is their right to do so as per Terms of Service (TOS).

Sorry for being windy.
 

[ActiveX]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

You want a link to evidence?

Here it is: http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB15

[TheBigCheese]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

Actually I think we have crossed wires here,
I thought you were talking about the infamous General Wolfe  

[ActiveX]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

Actually I think we have crossed wires here,
I thought you were talking about the infamous General Wolfe  

Oops...me too...

[KATChuutRitt]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

Chutt,

no disrespect intended, but Taldren reserves the right to ban anyone they choose for any reason when they fell like doing so.. it is their privaledge as owners of the Forums... If the current Admins have a listing of trouble makers on this forum as created by David Ferrell when he controlled the boards(I'm not saying that there is, but it is possible), then that is a mark already against them.. and I am sure David would have listed the troublesome posting and thread each time the Terms of Service were violated (if such a list exhists), and as such, there is a record based on user name. Heck there are records of every post ever made and logs of IP addresses and Emaiol addresses that Taldren can draw history on any poster on this Forum or even the old Forum as they have the old Forum Archived for reference. Heck, you can retrieve all postings since this forum started just by using the search function and enter someone's name.. or click on a name and then click on User's postings to get a list.. makes it simple to review people's posting habbits and behaviors. If a person is repeatedly banned/Moderated, then Taldren need not give any explanation at all per Terms of service and the issue involved is between solely Taldren and the violator and is not open to public debate or reposting contriversial threads.posts. I think this applies to the Privacy Act of 1974 which covers records... each post is considered a record once the post is finalized, IE: sent to the forum for public view....  Reposting a deleted thread or post from the Archive could result in a Privacy Act lawsuit due to personal records of a Forum user, Preseent or Former, thus allowing for suit agains the moderator/admin if not the company itself....
The deal is done so I wouldn't expect too much to be done anymore on this subject as Taldren made a decision in the best intrests of their company, and as such it is their right to do so as per Terms of Service (TOS).

Sorry for being windy.
 

Np,

Windy is ok...

Thing is, I am looking for evidence where I can feel comfortable supporting this company and its future products>  As they have every right to do as they see fit with their forums, I as a consumer have every right to speak with my dollars.  I am asking only for evidence to make me feel comfortable spending my dollars on Taldren products and recommending them to others.

It is my experience that companies generally wish to promote a positive image to their customers, so I don't think it is out of line for me to ask for such evidence.that would put them in a positive light .

[KATChuutRitt]

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Well,

I usually don't visit the OT forums too muchisn't my cup of tea, but it has every right to exist IMHO.

What gets me is how when someone may have accidentally caused a problem, he was quick to get thrown to the wolves.  

I have seen the other side of the story and it sounds a whole lot more sensible to me at this point.

I hope the new admins/mods will either clarify with hard evidence or undo any witch hunting that was done on emotion and not facts.  Causing a problem by accident is not grounds for a banning in my book.  So I ask the new crew to bring forward the evidence before I can throw my support behind them for their decisions.  Until then I will remain a critic of their removal of a moderator that i think was doing a service to the community.

I like alot of what Taldren has provided us with, the latest OP patches are much appreciated for example, but I will not refrain from expressing my opinion on other matters where I disagree with what I see based on the evidence I have seen.  I welcome anything new that can be brought to light, but I currently cannot see this as anything more than a bann of those who dare to have a different opinion.  Removal of moderater status I can live with if someone don't tote the official line, but banning for differing opinions is just WRONG.  I don't expect those with differing opinions to pucker up, no matter what side of the fence I happen to be on.



 

He was not quickly thrown to the lions, he has been banned multiple times and has created multiple accounts, no one was really surprised he was banned.There was no 'witch hunt' the guy had been warned many times about his coduct.
I applaud the new admin on thier actions
and the fact they are going to be stricter on certain race/religous issues  

Can you Sir provide links to these questionable conduct threads?  I am interested in proofs from which to make my own judgements rather than personal observations by third parties.  I mean no offense to you by this as I'm sure you have resons for your own views, just looking for facts.   As I stated before I see no problem with his removal as a moderater, Taldren has no need to justify its choices in this regard IMHO, and such decisions don't bother me one way of the other.  Banning for differences of opinion a a different issue for me personally.  And while Taldren can do what it wants in this regard as well, my reactions to such action in this case might be dependent upon their justifications or lack thereof.  I don't think it is unfair of me to request evidence on the matter so that I can form an opinion after seeing both sides of the story with as much data to base my assessment of these positions.  Not looking to flame but to be informed.

You want a link to evidence?

Here it is: http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB15  

The same evidence has been entered by the opposing viewpoint as well....

[Taldren_Erin]

Breaking prime directive in not talking about banning details, here, but there have been SO many posts asking about them and in some cases having some misinformation that's being taken to heart.

Crim was not banned for locking the threads, or on the chance that that caused the forum to crash. We don't know exactly what caused the crash. The crash was hardly intentional in and of itself (except on the bizarre .001% chance it was a 'successful' hacking attempt) and we certainly wouldn't have banned for that. However, the rampant thread locking caused a serious disruption to the forums, and with the confusion in the crash (with the locked threads being the last actions logged) at that point we removed Crim's mod status while we tried to figure out what the heck had happened. After we got the forums back up I unlocked the threads again. Crim was still not banned. The banning happened in tandem with GW's following a post on Crim's part that -- and this is my PR side talking -- demonstrated a serious lack of confidence, ahem, in the forum administration, and went beyond that into being seriously inflammatory/insulting. This, coupled with the fact that the thread locking was a very deliberate attempt to disrupt, it was decided warranted banning, by way of enforcing some time away from the forums to cool off. The thread in question was swiftly deleted when both bans went through, and my guess is that as a result some assumptions were made that Crim was banned for "crashing the forum".

The banning is not permanent, on his part or on GW's. They'll have a chance to come back if they want to. What the exact terms of this will be have not yet been determined, but there will be a post in the admin announcement board when they are.

If you have any further questions regarding this situation, please talk to me via PM. I'd rather that these things not be discussed on the boards for the privacy of those concerned.

 

[grimbeard]

Thanks for the explanation.  Glad I wasnt here for it  Too bad you were not here a couple years ago when the mighty XC captains had to fend off some guy (moniker escapes me),  there was mehjoor banningz in that 2 day time period.

[KATChuutRitt]

Thank you for your explanation Erin.

You have restored much of my confidence.  When I see Crimmy back and posting the rest will return as well.  This is exactly the kind of explanation/information that I wanted.  I thank you for it.  I have never questioned Taldren having the right to assign its moderaters as it sees fit, replacing and removing them if necessary, but the banning of individuals due to unproven accusations or differences of opinion has always made me willing to risk my own status on these forums for what I see as a legitimate cause.  I am a man who tries to live by a personal code of ethics.  It is nice to see that further support of Taldren will not be jeopardized by these ethics.  

Again thank you so much, and please don't make the temporary ban last too long.

[Komodo]

And back to the topic of this thread, I'll add my appreciation to the folks at Taldren. This place is an oasis of sorts to so many out there, including myself. One I like to keep coming back to  

[KRolling]

Even I have been abusive of my privileges here and have gotten out of hand with my posting at times.

The admins have my support and respect.  This does not mean I will always have to agree with them.  

I think if we learn to respect ourselves a little more we will be able to respect others.  The love starts within us.

[Dogmatix!]

Aaaaah...not love again!  


Make war, not love!    


 

[KRolling]

Quote:
Aaaaah...not love again!  


Make war, not love!    


 

<chants while bustin' some moves>

Doggy needs more luvin', yes he does.
Doggy needs more l-l-luvin' and he wants it real!!  

[ActiveX]

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Aaaaah...not love again!  


Make war, not love!    


 

<chants while bustin' some moves>

Doggy needs more luvin', yes he does.
Doggy needs more l-l-luvin' and he wants it real!!  

As opposed to Dynareal?