Topic: SFC3 Ship customization vs SFC2 mega-variants?

[Cleaven]

[quote
FatherTed, all your points are very well taken.  It was a peculiarity of lack of ship customisation that doomed most variants to AI captains alone.  The real irony here was that many of those ships would've gotten played if only the player was allowed to customise 1 or 2 things about it (on Fed ships, warp power all the way).

Of course in SFC3, with the missle not even an option, Feds are 'forced' back into their photon/quantum boats.  And that's as it should be.  May the missle never see the light of day again!  

We stand in agreement.  



Your comment about what is irony misses the concept that the available ships are supposed to represent a space navy that has some sort of design philosophy which matches a tactical doctrine. In this (EAW) instance players have to choose between fighting the oh-so-dumb AI, and other players. The AI can't fight drones so players use drones against them.
But back to the point of a regular navy and tactical doctrine, each captain can't turn up and rearrange the machine space in the engine room to his own ideals (it upsets the engineers). A new captain can't turn up and remove have the turrents off a destroyer just because he prefers to use mines, lots of mines.

People are already hurting from the issue of Feds or Romulans who want to fly like Klingons so they set themselves like a Klingon ship, to be used with Klingon tactics. Why not fly Klingon? Or just give everybody the same hulls and weapons and just change the paintwork. The style of the empires, as reflected in tactical doctrine and design may as well not exist. Instead you just make it up as you go along, ignoring any concepts of military design and administration philosophy. This is where you cross from a future simulation to a future fantasy concept where anything goes.

And that's when you end up with BattleTech.  

[Cleaven]

Quote:
   No disrespect intended, FatherTed, but "standard issue" is the starting point, not the ending point. Even GI's of WWII "customized" their equipment -- welding plows onto tanks to take down hedgerows, as an example.

We will soon see the "average" soldier be able to quickly adapt his/her equipment to a variety of tactical situations, given lightweight alloys, increased use of electronics, and good old fashion human ingenuity.

It shouldn't be any different in the simulated 24th century. Loadouts add interest and a strategic element.    

Actually the trend is towards common multi-purpose equipment, which already has the required functions without "illegal" modification. This simplifies supply and administration which is essential when dealing with "high-tech" sealed equipment. You don't rewire your image intensification unit for infrared, you change modules on your headset. Combat vehicles are made with general purpose fittings for the connection of specialist equipment if it becomes available for use. Lessons have been learnt from previous wars and adaption is being built in to equipment. This doesn't apply to core components though. MBT's don't come with an APC option where the main gun is changed to a 25mm and passenger seating is installed (Kangaroos have been and gone).  

What also doesn't happen is each soldier carrying around all the options. Instead they are assigned by a command unit. You are able to request laser rangefinding gear or pop-up toasters, but if the brigade commander says that all men will use toasting sticks and train to determine range by eye, then that's the way it is. Sometimes you will get what you want, but I've found that generally there is always another company which has greater priortiy than mine, so I'll only get half of what I need.    

[Tannhauser]

The thing is, we've seen many examples in the shows where the "prestigious" officers can get what they want.
Starfleet comes out with new technology, and who do you think gets it first?  The Sovereign-class patrolling the borders, or the Sovereign-class USS Enterprise?  You may say it's because the Enterprise is the Federation Flagship, but isn't that also an example of prestige?  Sisko got the Defiant and all of its experimental technology (of course, he did oversee its development).  The first Runabouts ever built went to DS9.  Admiral Kirk got to take command of the Enterprise from Decker, and Kirk even got a brand new Enterprise after destroying the old one, ticking off the Klingons (and almost starting a war with them), and getting demoted by a court martial.  Admiral Leyton personally had an Excelsior-class refitted with Quantum Torpedoes and other modern weaponry.  It has even been stated  that Admirals basically get to pick their own ship.  

And there's also the fact that game takesplace in a time of war.  Near the end of the Dominion War, Starfleet was using any ship it could get its hands on.  They were fielding decommissioned, obsolete, and even incomplete ships.  If it had power, shields, weapons, and warp nacelles, they would stick a skeleton crew on it and send it out to at least patrol systems, if not take part in full fleet actions.  Even an important objective like AR-558 where Starfleet was holding a Dominion communication array, Starfleet didn't have the resources to fully defend it at first, despite its importance.  In Treachery, Faith, and the Great River, we saw how difficult it could be to obtain replacement parts to fix even the Defiant.  

Basically, it all represents the fact that Captain Picard can be certain his Enterprise will have the best of everything, while Captain Nobody will be lucky just to get all of his phasers operational and maybe partially upgraded before he has to fly off into battle again, hoping that his next visit to a starbase will have those upgraded phasers for him, unless Captain Somebody got his name on the Quartermaster's list first.  

[Cleaven]

Okay, I yield on the premise that every SFC player actually rates as a Capt Kirk (shudder) and therefore the issue of customisation and OoB's is not as big a problem as I make it out to be.

Of course I would prefer the "you are a line captain and you will do as you are told" option.

   

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

Quote:
The customization thing is what bugs me about SFC3. When you're in the Army, you are issued an M16. The caliber is 5.56mm. You cannot customize it to 7.62mm. Nor can you add a rear torpedo tube to your 688 SSN. Likewise, rear-firing Sidewinders are out for the F-15. In any regular military, you are given standard issue equipment, and you use it. Customization should be limited to Orions, who scavenge weapons where they can get them. Part of the fun of EAW is making do with a ship that's not everything you want it to be.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!  This is exactly how I feel.  Couldn't have said it any better.  

[Credo Narth]

In my opinion, and after playing SFC3 madly for the past few weeks, I reckon that SFC2 has the edge over SFC3's customisability.

Essentially, whenever I get me Defiant/ Akira/ Galaxy/ Sovereign (which are the only ships I'll use), I'll end up loading them out in exactly the same way I loaded them out the time before. If I were in SFC2, it would have been a variant that I would have been going for, like the CLC/ BCF/ DNH. At the end of the day, it doesn't make any difference that I can bung in some new weapons and come up with a new variant, I'll stick with what I've got.

I've also decided that SFc2 is simply too good to be ignored for SFC3. The Gameraiders review said it all for me, really. So I'll be reinstalling the old game this week... Which leads me to ask what the best D2 servers there are out there. Anyone?

[Aenigma]

Credo, try the Romulans next time. They are difficult to play but are much more fun than the feds. Just my opinion though, you don't have to agree. And it is actually logical that you refit them the same way each time, your refit matches your playstyle (if only warbirds were more manoeuvrable )

Aenigma,
In The Service of The Empire  

[Robb Stark]

Quote:
The customization thing is what bugs me about SFC3. When you're in the Army, you are issued an M16. The caliber is 5.56mm. You cannot customize it to 7.62mm. Nor can you add a rear torpedo tube to your 688 SSN. Likewise, rear-firing Sidewinders are out for the F-15. In any regular military, you are given standard issue equipment, and you use it. Customization should be limited to Orions, who scavenge weapons where they can get them. Part of the fun of EAW is making do with a ship that's not everything you want it to be.

And I reject the notion that the various fleets in the Star Trek universe should somehow directly mirror the modern military in their procedures and operations.  First of all, the difference in technology is such that it's silly to assume an equivalent.  This is something I already discussed with Hypergol on the last iteration of this thread, previous forum.

But secondly, since when does the U.S. Military "explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, and boldy go where no one has gone before?"  Is that part of the armed forces mandate that I missed somewhere?  U.S. naval captains do not have the same kind of autonomy that Kirk and Picard did.  How many warships have a "science officer?"  Much less a science officer that is the second in command.  And so forth.

Starfleet is not the U.S. Navy.  It's mission is far broader and its goals a great deal more multifaceted.  As a result, its ships and crews have to be more flexible and adaptable.  To me, customization fits in perfectly with that vision.  A captain given the responsibility to execute such a diverse variety of missions has the leeway to customize their ship as they see fit.  

[theRomulan]

Okay okay people.  First off, this is a video game that is about 'Starfleet'; any argument that says this imaginary space fleet should mirror our modern day or any previous military is kind of pointless.  

Secondly, I think everyone is just on a 'hail SFC2' drug trip.  I remember this forum would be filled with nothing but flames for SFC2 for at least two years.  Magic Photons, plasma overpowered, some romulan ship that can fly speed 31, charge all weapons AND reinforce shields, etc etc.  Now SFC3 comes out, has a change in atmosphere, and the board's attitude does a complete 180.  Seems like everyone is hopping the bandwagon to me.  

Also, the idea that everyone liked being force to fly a ship not of their choosing is also kind of shallow.  In the end, when you saw your best ship in the ship yard, you went and got it.  That was the end of it.  Yes, in SFC3 you will encounter moments where you will probably outfit your ship to the exact specifications that you desire, all the time.  However, keep in mind that the D3 servers are nowhere near the level of development of the D2 servers right now.  D2 servers, through all the pain and bugs and crashes, has finally stabilized a bit, the alt f4 teenagers are gone, and you've got some mature, dedicated players on there.  You get to FEEL like you're flying a ship that you don't quite want but have to have because the servers are set so that all the optimal equipment is extremely difficult to obtain, etc.  Most, if not all of the D3 servers are basically set to run standard mode, meaning it's chump change trying to get new technology.  The funny thing is, the D2 servers, when they finally became stable, were exactly the same way.  Yeah, there were 180 ships, but I guarentee you that more than half the Dynaverse players were in that F-DDG of some kind, and I guarentee that everyone was in F-BCF or K-C7, or a KCR within moments.  There was almost NEVER a situation where someone was captaining a ship they just HAD to deal with, at least not for prolonged periods.  I remember going on to servers where people had battleships, and in SFC2, fighting a battleship is quite boring.  I find that the battleships of SFC3, while certainly powerful, are not quite as boring as fighting in anything from SFC2.    

Give SFC3 a few months.  The patch will fix some issues (hopefully we can see mizia fire return in its effectiveness, the reinforcment setup for 1.00 pretty much forces everyone to alpha strike), and over time we'll get some dedicated people running their own D3 servers who will setup campaigns that will not simply give you your precious defiant hull, etc.  Just like the D2 servers that are still up right now.  So don't bang on SFC3 as if it's incredibly shallow and there's no such thing as difference, because D2 was pretty much the same.  What made D2 even sadder was the fact that it would have not 9 hulls, but 180 some odd hulls, and out of all those, we saw about 10 make up the entire D2 population.  

If anything, Starfleet Command games are something that just take time.  You have to allow everyone to play the game, let the teenagers get bored and leave, let the patches filter out all the game option limiting crap, and then allow the dedicated players to create servers that are more than just a constant slug fest, something has a deep atmosphere.  D2 has that now, but it most certainly didn't a few months ago.  D3 does not have it quite yet, but we'll see it.  Finally, if you really want a ship that you "have to fly but don't want to", SFC3 has that too.  It's called controlling yourself when you refit.  Use your imagination, and don't give your ship everything you want.  Heck, you can go ahead and take weapons off your ship if you like.  Sure, no one else is doing it, but no one was flying a crappy ship in the D2 either.  They'd just keep their frigate and fly endless AI missions until they had enough money to bypass all the crappy ships.  Anyway, I have a feeling that over time there will be a D3 server that isn't run of the mill, something that has rules and settings that forces players to play with "what you got or what you can get".  Cheers.    

[Aenigma]

I think it's quite a challenge to try and master each ship, but surely it gives you tactical advantages. And you can rethink your designs (that's why my newer designs usually come with a high-level cloak; i did some testing on it and found out they were not that crappy at all). It is indeed true that more isn't always better.

And by the way, i am a teenager still ( in 17 days i won't be anymore )

Aenigma,
In The Service of The Empire  

[Mr. Hypergol]

Quote:
Okay okay people. First off, this is a video game that is about 'Starfleet'; any argument that says this imaginary space fleet should mirror our modern day or any previous military is kind of pointless.

There it is again.....that damn "this is a video game so who cares about realism" line.

I agreed in the previous forum that my "realism" argument will always fall to this logic.  And I admit it....so put that sentence away please.......I consider it an atrocious use of "Arguments of Mass Destruction" and not fair in this debate.;)

This debate all comes down to what you prefer in gaming.....realistic simulations or fantasy.

I prefer realism for SFC because I see Star Trek as a vision of what humanity's future could be like.  Fantasy is fun for other genres like Tolkien or Star Wars.  It all depends on the setting of the game for me.  

[theRomulan]

I'll admit, that line was a bit harsh.  I too appreciate a sort of 'realism' or at least a boundary from which we decide to not let our video game fantasy cross.  

However, I don't feel that SFC2, with all of its ship types, has really provided that military realism mainly because of its player base.  You and I might appreciate the idea that there are ships out there that are not exactly tactically sound on the dynaverse, but a majority of the players do not, and will do whatever it takes (and it usually isn't much) to avoid the vessels that are definitely more adapted for science than war (the federation is full of these).  On the other end of the argument however, it would make sense for the any starfleet like organization to allow a captain with high prestige to outfit his ship according to his tactical preferences ofr a situation.  Unfortunately, we also get in a situation where people outfit their vessel entirely with antimatter mines for heavy weapons, and configure their ship to go extremely fast to drop them.  Cool concept if this were used in a fleet, but So far the D3 sees very little mass group stradegy and coordination, and therefore limited strategic fleet action.  However, I also believe that the configurations are not too heavily abused... a lot of players are loaded out with logical, somewhat standard forms.  I usually fly romulan, but I love the K'Tinga class from the klingons.  I flew the K D7T all the time in SFC2 purely for the love of having photon torpedoes instead of disruptors.  In SFC3, the load out of my ship isn't exactly the same, but the design is very similar.  The only big change I put on my ship was that I got rid of a rear photon torpedo tube in favor of carrying bigger disruptors in the front.  Photon torpedoes fully loaded in the front.  I dont' go for radical designs.  I try to make my designs as close as I am used to them being on SFC2.  

Hopefully, after the patch, someone will pay some attention to details in terms of the atmosphere in the D3 and we'll have big coordinated attacks, fleet commanders, etc.  And it will feel at least a little more 'real'.  

[KNF-Merlin]

Quote:
 let the teenagers get bored and leave

why is every one always bashing teenagers? i am 16 and have been playing since the week SFC1 came out.  

[theRomulan]

It seems i'm insulting everyone today.  Don't worry, I started playing SFC as a teenager myself. I'm pretty young, only 20, so I guess i'm a teenager as well in a way.  

When i say 'teenager' however, i speak of the typical crowd this game attracts: someone looking to fly a super powerful federation vessel with torpedoes that never miss, or the crowd that likes to get to f4 out of every dynaverse game for fear of losing their prized ship.  I can understand not wanting to lose your best ship, but the dynaverse wasnt' meant to be a game where you play by yourself trying to get cool ships, and then fight against flies.  

I'm sure you don't fit the typical mold if you've been playing since SFC1.  My apologies.  

[Aves]

First of all I like SFC3, and love SFC2
(however I still hate it when the last Klingon or Lyran Planet is guarded by 9 DNs and all freighter fleets are protected by 2 BBs even though the evil empires only each control one planet and no additional space GRRR)

I do prefer the SFC3 ships varient structure BUT

I would like to see more hulls
at least 2 more races
eras (early middle late)
some real racial flavor beyond cloaks
and some REAL variety in weapons beyond plasmas

When all is said and done SFC3 COULD have more variety

BUT

SFC2 does have more for now.  

[Whiplash]

Here, here, Aves!! I couldn't agree more. SFC2 is my fave, but if I'm going to be stuck with SFC3, I'd move to see all the things you mentioned.

As wilder (and less likely) wishing, I wonder if it would work to have them to go all the way back to the Kirk days and give us some of those ships in the low end. I'd also like to see the Enterprise-C style ship. Maybe the uber ships of the future we say in the series finale. I wonder if they could do anything special with time ships from the far future?

W.

[SL-Punisher]

Eh,...

Trek, and specifically SFB, creates a universe with its own rules, limitations, and methods of play. So one could argue, that based on those rules, a given situation might or might not be "Realistic".

With all the material out there (Stories, models, hell ive seen spock underwear) there is plenty to create a viable universe, all based on human exploits in the future. This is where the "Non-realistic" arguement fails. You see we understand it isn't real, but just because its imagined dosen't mean there aren't rules that govern our little fantasy universe. Who has fun in a universe that changes constantly with no real physics? If your a fan of Allice in Wonderland perhaps. For the rest of us we enjoy this universe because, in many ways, it is plausable.

So any arguements made on the basis of realism are made based not on real life, but on our little universe we've created here.

And why not? ::pulls out phaser set to kill:: Do you have a problem with that?!?!

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

Quote:
Trek, and specifically SFB, creates a universe with its own rules, limitations, and methods of play. So one could argue, that based on those rules, a given situation might or might not be "Realistic".

With all the material out there (Stories, models, hell ive seen spock underwear) there is plenty to create a viable universe, all based on human exploits in the future. This is where the "Non-realistic" arguement fails. You see we understand it isn't real, but just because its imagined dosen't mean there aren't rules that govern our little fantasy universe. Who has fun in a universe that changes constantly with no real physics? If your a fan of Allice in Wonderland perhaps. For the rest of us we enjoy this universe because, in many ways, it is plausable.

So any arguements made on the basis of realism are made based not on real life, but on our little universe we've created here.

These are great points.  Realism is still important even in a fictional setting.

Good gaming requires strict limitations.  If it's easy to win there's no challenge and winning means nothing.  Star Fleet Battles and the previous SFC's are great games because they put lots of limitations on players.  It's my opinion that full customization in SFC3 diminishes this element.  That's why I think SFC2's system of refitted varients was better.  You often had to deal with a less than perfect ship.  This was more challenging and a better simulation of what a starship captain would likely face.  

[EmeraldEdge]

Yeah, I agree.  However SFC2 wasn't perfect either.  Many wanted SFC1's ability to refit your current ship without having to sell off your current ship and buy a completely new variant.  Such is life, eh?  

[Argos65987]

Quote:
First of all I like SFC3, and love SFC2
(however I still hate it when the last Klingon or Lyran Planet is guarded by 9 DNs and all freighter fleets are protected by 2 BBs even though the evil empires only each control one planet and no additional space GRRR)

I do prefer the SFC3 ships varient structure BUT

I would like to see more hulls
at least 2 more races
eras (early middle late)
some real racial flavor beyond cloaks
and some REAL variety in weapons beyond plasmas

When all is said and done SFC3 COULD have more variety

BUT

SFC2 does have more for now.  

Very well said.  Except I liked the SFC2 varients over SFC3 customizing.   I really don't think that one version is better than another, it is just my opinion on the subject.