Topic: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)  (Read 2324 times)

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Mackie

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Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« on: September 29, 2003, 02:37:02 am »
The way i see it (other than graphics wise) SFC 3 adds to the overalll playability with the ability of refitting a ship and such on the cost of loosing ship specific control a bit when ingame. A big downsize is no 'species specific' interface IMHO. The Playability, even more so, is IMO much more smoother and does not require 25~ fingers and hands to control  a ship but still keeps it from being a action only game. Plus, being able to customize the game more is a _GOOD_ thing since we havent been able to break them .q3 files _Yet_ ...

Im a little tired right now and i think ill add more to this later  

James Formo

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2003, 01:10:06 pm »
I myself will never go back to SFC2. Main reason is lightmaps won"t work for me in SFC2 but they will in SFC3. Plus SFC3 has specularity, dynamic LOD's.  All this makes the ships look so much better. Only thing is the SFC3 engine is picky with some mesh things that never showed up in SFC2 and it takes longer to get the ship in correctly so the dynamic LOD,s work for example.

I have come across some ships that people  have done and look great, but I won't use, because they take 3 or more minutes to load. These are ships that usually have 30 seperate bmp's.  Any ships I work on from here on out will be on 1 (two max) maps. I found this lowers the load time  significately. Usually  to about 15 seconds. btw my computer is 800mhz with still only 128mb memory and a 32mb ViperII vid card.

I notice that a high poly model with 2 bmp's loads much faster then a low poly model with lots of bitmaps.

Mackie, was wondering what you meant by keept it clean,don't bash? Oh-you refer to flaming I bet.



 

Mainwaring

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2003, 01:30:07 pm »
I've posted about this before, but I prefer SFC3 vastly, for a couple reasons.

1. It looks nicer, which carries *some* weight with me.
2. I'd rather spend my time thinking about tactics, instead of ship management. From what I recall, SFC2/OP has a lot of ship management details to juggle in the middle of combat.
3. I like Trek. I do NOT care for SFB, however. SFC3 steps away from SFB and towards Trek, which makes it much more appealing to someone like myself.
4. TNZ is a SFC3 mod.
5. (fanboy) SFC3 has Picard voiceovers in SP. (/fanboy)

 

Clark Kent

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2003, 02:17:24 pm »
I prefer SFC 2, either EAW or OP to SFC 3.  For one, SFC 3 didn't work for me at first, and I couldn't get any help for it.  I eventually got it going when I came accross the 1.01 patch.  As for playability, I like the added functions of warp, and reverse.  I feel that those two things add alot to the game.   Howerver, I DON'T like the simplified controls.  I feel the interface was dumbed down too much.  For me the game is little more than a shoot em up game.  Hate to say it, but I like having to keep my mind on various ship tasks, and expecially monitoring energy in SFC 2.  I don't like the return of the limited campaign, like we saw in SFC 1.  That was one thing I didn't like comoing back- I'd like to play  and play and play, not just play the exact same campaign scenarios over and over and over.  It's fun going from square to square, and routing out the enemy, even conquering the galaxy.  I don't like the limited firing arcs.  I would have preferred arcs similar to those in BC over what they have- the arcs just annoys the hell outta me.  I like alpha strikes and am not the type that just likes going in circles so I can use each weapon.  I don't like the added difficulty of adding ships.  I haven't added one single ship, or changed changed the graphics on any of the ships, simply because I haven't figured out how it all works, and don't really care to take the time to.  
I guess I'm also more of a TMP fan.  I liked the original crew, uniforms, ships, everything more than the next generation.  I just wish that they made a series in the TMP era.  I liked the plots in TMP.  Many of them were about doing the right thing over what starfleet wanted, and TNG stuck to the prime directive way to hard.  TNG was too bureaucratic, and the movies seemed contrary to the series to the point that I didn't want to watch them as much as the TMP movies.  In fact, the TNG movies seemed like they were going overboard to make up for their stodgy past.  There are designs I liked that showed up in the TNG- I especially liked the Excelsior refits- but they too were intended to be older, more of a TMP era ship.  And one thing I really didn't like- crew members sleeping with each other and marrying each other.  Can we say conflict of interest?  Sure, in TOS and TMP there was some flirting, and definate closeness with some of the cast, but it wasn't the same "let's pass the brunette around the crew so everyone gets a shot at her," type of high school BS there was in TNG.
Back to the game.  I enjoyed the SFC 1 and EAW campaigns much more than the SFC 3 campaigns.  SFC 3 was generally one big campaign where you played each race, except for the borg.  Granted, I haven't tried the borg, and have hardly touched SFC 3 since I finished the main campaign(s).
CK  

Mackie

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2003, 02:22:53 pm »
in SFC3 theres a conquest option and yes TMP is helluva much cooler than tngay  

Azel

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2003, 02:40:24 pm »
I am a total SFC1,2, and OP fan...TNG just didn't have it...and it is "STARFLEET" Command, not Starship Command...yes you can capture ships ...but you can't keep them???
As for tactics...a tractor and an asteroid can beat nearly every opponent
I did enjoy the reverse and warp:) though...so its not a total loss...the game is fun...but for SFC and SFB fans it is a let down....Just my 2 cents guys nothin personal on the game  

InterMech

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2003, 05:14:39 pm »
I feel like SFC3 was a definite improvement for the following reasons.

1. I like all the new movie era ships.
2. I like the variety of ship specs.
3. I love the graphics.
4. Most of all, I absolutely adore the ability to add ships, ship descriptions, ship UIs, and new campaigns.

I am however angered because I felt like SFC3 was step back in some areas. I feel like the customer was cheated out of the following:

1. Mission Variety. Not only are the two types of missions shipped with the game boring after playing them 5 times in a row, but modders were not given a way to easily create new missions. Infact, from what I understand, it is even harder to make new missions in SFC3 then the other SFC games.
2. Ship selection was greatly diminished. There could have at least been available all the ships from OP plus the TNG ships, that couldn't have taken too much more effort could it? I think there is what, a total of 5 differing ship hulls for the Romulans and 4 for the Borg?
3. I feel like the game was released early causing the Cardassians and 8472 to be left out. I feel like Activision was planning another Armada scam where they release half the game, and then a year later release the full version with all of the intended features as a "new" game. The customer should not have to put up with that.


However, SFC3 is my game of choice. I am losing interest for lack of variety. That is when I pull out my OP.

   

DarkMatrix

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2003, 02:36:19 am »
just 2 words

  The borg
DM [

Atrahasis

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2003, 06:15:37 am »
SFC3 suffered from a lack of vision, and also it was very very poorly researched, which ultimately caused it to fizzle out and die, especially amongst the people who would care about it the most.....the detail buffs .  

EmeraldEdge

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2003, 01:32:44 pm »
Well, from my view, SFC2/OP is the better game.  It has more depth, and overall gameplay.  Yes, it has it's own issues, but SFC3 was majorly underdeveloped, imo.

SFC3, to my mind, is also no more Trek than SFC2 is.  The arcs aren't representative of Trek, in fact if anything SFC2 has more Trek like arcs than SFC3, as well as many other facets of the game.  The Tactical was taken down too far, and whereas I like the addition of some of the elements (reverse and warp are fun), I certainly don't think they were adequate replacements for the elements that were taken out.  All weapons are fairly the same,  SFC2 requires that you use many of it's weapons in much different fashions than eachother.  

SFC2 has much more racial flavor, even in the screens.  I think the move to one universal UI was a big mistake.  It also has much more variety in missions.  I agree with Atrahasis, that SFC3 lacked vision.  To me, the game was lacking in almost every area.  It seemed like a game made for the sake of making a game, rather than a real passion, or love for Trek.  I don't think much effort was put into doing research on the era, what the ships were like.  And there was certainly very little creativity put into filling the holes that Trek has, in order to make it a well rounded game.  While I'm not a proponent of the ship building aspect of things (I just don't think a starfleet would operate that way, and I prefer the upgrade system from SFC1) it seems to be to have been halfway done.  More thrown together than well thought out, and the variety of systems is very lacking.

I say this, as someone who was really looking forward to SFC3.  I even put up a website early on dispelling some of the bad rumours running around and trying to bring some people into the fold.  I did begin to worry when I saw some of the posts by a few Taldren employee's that appeared to be grasping at straws when trying to say why SFC3 was going to be so good and why SFC2 was so bad or "stupid".  Still I looked forward to it.  I was so pumped when I got the disk I didn't even go to work that day, unfortunately I was so very, very disappointed in the final product.  It could have been so much better, but it fell far short of even SFC2 standards, imo.

Yes, it has prettier graphics to a certain degree (my geforce2mx makes them look rather drab unless you zoom in sometimes) but the gameplay is just too lacking.  I figure the only way I'll go back to SFC3 is if I make some type of mod for it, but everytime I start to think about it and plan some ideas, I start remember all the things the game can't do.  It's unfortunate.  I could go on about it, but for me SFC2/OP will have to do, despite it's many problems.  I had really hoped that there would be a successor to it that would really amp things up (and SFB doesn't matter to me, just deep/quality gameplay, in case anyone is lookin' to throw a label).

btw, when I play SFC OP (I don't actually play EAW, and haven't for years now) I only use 3 fingers and my thumb on the keyboard.  The rest I do with the mouse, and I do just fine.  I leave my fingers sitting on the 1,2,3 buttons and the thumb on the Z.  Only occassionally will I use the B button.  I guess I never understood the whole "this game is too complex" thing.  Unfortunately SFC3 seemed to have solved a lot of "problems" by just removing things.   Fewer tactical elements equals fewer keys I guess.  Trouble getting fighter AI to work right?  Just remove fighters, etc.  I really would have loved to see Runabouts launched out of starbases and stuff, but alas that much Trek was not meant to be, I guess.  To tell you the truth I find a lot of Trek games lacking in Trek, and it's sad, especially when other franchises do a fairly good job emulating the universes they are from.  

Atrahasis

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2003, 10:04:20 am »
I think the fact that OP is going on strong while SFC3 has fizzled out says it all.  

Rod O'neal

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2003, 10:45:58 am »
SFC3 needs more races and a lot more ships. If it had the rest of the TNG races it would have been a lot better. As far as the different game mechanics and ruleset, they're fine. Reverse and warp are nice additions.
It's a different game and probably shouldn't have been called SFC anything. I like a lot of games that have different mechanics & rules than SFC/SFB. Graphics are bound to get better as time goes on and they can give the game more wow appeal, not something that'll make me play it over and over though.
Overall, I still prefer the originals, 1, 2, OP  

James Formo

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2003, 11:03:55 am »
Well comparing SFC3 to OP isn't fair. The reason OP is good is its the 3rd incarnatation using a system that started in SFC1, then EAW and finally OP. Plus OP has been patched about 5 times. To be honest, I mod for the game 98% of the time and play maybe 2%, if that even. So mostly I need the game to showcase a ship or play test it.  Its obvious from looking at files that SFC3 was probaly meant to have an expansion. Kinda like OP was to EAW.   It has a lot of refences in files that are not in use yet. If you want to compare SFC3s new system you should put it up to EAW  out of box (seem to recall it wouldn't even play till it got patched), the original release of SFC2.

Anyways I enjoy having the details of the ship in the VL.
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by James Formo »

Reverend

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2003, 12:33:32 am »
Oh, I stil do play OP a bit hither and tither. I enjoyed having all the races and goverments to worry about, including those darn pirates. I too prefer SFC3 because of the modability and graphics cleanliness... I can add in totally new descriptions, customize my personal ship, tottaly individual...... but the laughably pathetic lack of missions, the sme old boring clausterphobic hex map, just never does it for me. I was understanding before i bought the product in November that it was going to have continuous space, a la the other online space games that over sell it. I so wished for a giagantic consistent continuous space, where I log on and ws still in parking orbit over blah blah. I wonder what the difficulty in making that would have been, would it have been made by EA Games or such.
Fortunately SFC3 still hd enough elements of SFB to make it fairly well balanced, but not enough to make it droll and tedious... the warp and reverse capacities were absolute nessecities, IMHO. I am getting tired of playing SFC, as each game was half-assed in its own fashion.... one has to spend a year modding it to make it tolderable, only because of working around the bugs. I'll still keep playing it, like there are any other Trek games out, and mainly because I can play all the new ships and effects all the wonderful artist here on the forums create to share and enjoy.
Guys, if it weren't for each and every one of you, I'd have tearfully tossed these CD's in the trash long ago.  

Reverend

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2003, 12:54:00 am »
tearfully... sheesh... where do I get it?
No flaming intended here, BTW.  

Qob'nuH

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2003, 06:47:06 pm »
I  don't have any experience with SFC3. I just recently got a computer that can run it and may still pick it up.  As far as customizing, thats what has kept my interest in SFC1,2 and OP. Currently I just play OP. I have spent a great deal of time making the game closer to what i think it should be. I have replaced most of the weapon graphics and sounds, added some custom music. Feds ,Rom,IKV use almost no stock models at this point. I have added Cardassians, Borg, Breen, Tholians and many other races. I have made everything playable....starbases,fighters,freighters, monsters, etc. I am in the process of  refining the shiplist and re-specing the various classes and races, removing redundant variants,commando ships,etc.
All eras are represented as well (as it should be) I would like to have the warp jump of SFC3, one of the things sadly missing from OP but assigning a higher acceleration value to the ship combined with a HET gives a poorman's warp ( very poor, but better than nothing). Now if someone can crack that sprites file the game could reach another level of customization it lacks. For now I'll settle for a  personalized game that's ten times better than the one that came out of the box.  

James Formo

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Re: Comparing SFC 3 to SFC 2 (op) (keep it clean, dont bash)
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2003, 12:53:19 am »
Qob'nuH, that sounds like 1 cool mod.  I too modded for OP quite a bit.  I never could decide on what races to fill out the pirate slots.  Wanted to have 16 races, but I kept switching them around so never really got done.  Then Azel kept pumping out new races and I couldn't make up my mind where to put them, Confound him. (just kidding here)

I may be the only one, but I like having fewer races in SFC3. I found it takes longer to put ships in game from scratch.  Doing 16 races in SFC3 would be daunting.   DS9 was not one of my favorite shows so I do not miss the dominion or other races really. Thought what I would do in SFC3 is just add in stray races  to serve as pirate encounters.   In both games I never cared for the single player campaigns. Where you have to hail and the response is pre determined-and all missions go in a specific order. In enjoy conquest more. I  find it more fun in a destroyer then in a DN.  

Yes there is less to control in SFC3 than OP. But then again not really.  If your in a FF ar DD class which are highly maneuverable, much time is spent just trying to position a mine in front of the enemy ship.  I  enjoy just cruising around dropping nukes with reinforced aft shields. Thats why I modded shuttles to lay mines as well.    

Another point I have is  that  I like the narrow arcs.  It makes mauevering even more important and evens up the field so a FF  class has a chance against a  light cruiser  if you can just stay out of its arcs.  I also like how the ships bank, allowing for better screen shots.  This also is more prominet in lighter classes that turn easier.

 I wish reverse was modable as well. For example instead of having full impulse going forward and 1/4  in reverse. It would be cool if this could be part of your ship build. So you could configure your ship for 3/4 forward and 1/2 reverse.

One more thing is cloaking in SFC3 is sweet.    Perhaps the 1 best thing it has over OP.

Warping is cool.  One thing that could be done better is where a phaser or disrupter starts from is to big and square.
I guess they made them to be easily seen when you zoom out but up close where they meet the ship looks funky.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by James Formo »

Chris Jones

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SFC3 vs. OP
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2003, 10:46:12 am »
To me, the 16 races in OP was a Godsend. I had just come off modding EAW with just 8 races, and was looking for a few more. As soon as OP hit my PC I was planning the TNG Mod for it. At the time I was not overly concerned about how it would play in the campaign area, just getting all the races and ships working, with descriptions and new audio for some.
In Oct 2002 that Mod hit its peak, just before SFC3 came out. I had Centauri Vaughn's Missions in there, and what seemed like a million ships. There were several people on Gamespy setting up rooms based on that Mod.  Those were the days.

SFC3 presented a new challenge with only 4 races. I love the Warp and the Reverse, and most of the graphics are kool. The galaxy backgrounds in SFC3 are superior to those in OP, I think.  I had oodles of fun creating the TNG Mega-Mod for it, and then watched as Pelican, Captain Korah, Nannerslug, and many others made big mods for it. At this point I find myself firing up OP more than SFC3. I think the reason is because the big race selection in OP vs. SFC3, and I do like the handling of ships in OP more than I do in SFC3. The way the ships tilt very quickly from left to right while turning just seems unnatural to me, and it looks somewhat fake. I get in moods with SFC3 - I'll play it every day for a few days - then forget it for a while, then pick it up for a day or two - etc..  Of course I am mostly involved with Bridge Commander of late.

So I choose OP, as I mentioned to Firesoul one day on MSN. I rarely, if ever, play EAW. It is still on my PC and patched to  2036 in case I end playing with the boys from the STOC Fleet. My brother is in that.

The dedication of David Ferrell to OP is just amazing to see, and he is a true professional with concern for the fans.

I am still supporting all mods on my site. I have someone beta-testing some Pelican-created script replacements in the SFC3 TNG Mega Mod that will help the campaigns work better, but I don't plan any more big expansions of that mod - at least not today.