Topic: My first model in well over a year! Pics inside

[Atrahasis]

Yes, I like your point about different builders throughout the Federation while building to specs may vary sligtly. If you ever downloaded my little SS Aurora, I made a Vulcan verison as well as a Fed version, with different styles in mind reflecting different places they were constructed at.

Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.  

[Atrahasis]

Hey, look at the neat Coronado I made! All it needs is the proper pennants and registry:



PS By the way Bernard, is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering? Thanks in advance.

I got the picture of the Early Frigate, it's quite cool! My question tho is in what SFB year did they stop using it? There's no sense in modelling it if it doesnt show up in at least the early era.

[Bernard Guignard]

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Hey, look at the neat Coronado I made! All it needs is the proper pennants and registry:



PS By the way Bernard, is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering? Thanks in advance.

I got the picture of the Early Frigate, it's quite cool! My question tho is in what SFB year did they stop using it? There's no sense in modelling it if it doesnt show up in at least the early era.  

Hi Atrahasis
    I sent you the registry's for the Cornado and a schematic design of the Cornado's bigger sister the Cartier class my own
Kit bash on the Cornado so to speak.   Regarding Warp engines  constitution Class vessels started with PB31 mod 3 warp engines. The TreknoGraphx List has a Data base of warp engines that I've drawn so far cross referenced with what class of ship they were first used on.

Regarding the early frigate  Using the SFB time line the first TOS Frigate the Burke class Left the ship yards in Y127.
the Early years frigate was launched in Y85. This is a 42  year difference. If we assume say the space frame has
an operational life of 80 to 100 years then  we have a 40 to 60 year overlap where early frigates with some  tech up grades are being used. This would be logical since it would take time build up a frigate inventory  in the fleet.  I don't have federation and empire so I don't know the stats on ship production. I'd assume that eventually as each new frigate that rolled out of the Ship yards replaced an early frigate on a one to one basis not counting ships lost in combat and MIAs.
So there should by some early frigates kicking around in the very early period.  I'd suggest take the date of the Burke the -F-FF class frigate in sfc and add 60 years and that will be when the early frigates were completely phased out.

I hope that I answered your question to your satisfaction  

[Rogue]

Quote:
Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.  

Then you knew something I didn't... that happens a lot.    I think there was always a conflict portraying James T. Kirk as the elite of the elite, captaining the elite starship in the Federation. And undoubtably it was refered to as the fleet flagship. Which couldn't relate to the way we use flagship today. That would be the command ship in a taskforce, directing fleet operations. Ever notice that most other starship captains in starfleet were either emotionaly unbalanced or so rigid that improvising was not possible? And no one but no one could bring themselves to observe the 'Prime Directive'. Just about every time it is mentioned it is about to be discarded.

Anyway, how would you consider that these starships got built? Multiple independent shipyards or a centralized one with many subassemblies built elsewhere. Like Warp nacelles, impulse engines and secondary hulls. I would guess it would be the latter for the reason that the cadets are trained at the academy in San Francisco. That and you figure they would be a little uptight with security constructing their cuttng edge starships. Then, perhaps, some of the more general purpose vessels were built elsewhere to free up sector 001 traffic and resources.  

[Chrystoff]

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Is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering?  

According to Ships of the Starfleet, the Connie originally used PB-31 Model 3 warp units. In fact, it says, "The PB-31 series warp engines are basically unchanged from the date of her commissioning." I saw no reference to a PB-27 engine.

The Coronado apperently started out with (& ended with) the PB-47 engines. No reference or mention is made about any other type of engine. The only pennents shown are TMP era pennants, but I personnaly think it would have had TOS pennents, and then upgraded to TMP pennants after a certain date. But, hey, the TMP ones look great, in my opinion.

 

[Atrahasis]

Quote:

Regarding the early frigate  Using the SFB time line the first TOS Frigate the Burke class Left the ship yards in Y127.
the Early years frigate was launched in Y85. This is a 42  year difference. If we assume say the space frame has
an operational life of 80 to 100 years then  we have a 40 to 60 year overlap where early frigates with some  tech up grades are being used. This would be logical since it would take time build up a frigate inventory  in the fleet.  I don't have federation and empire so I don't know the stats on ship production. I'd assume that eventually as each new frigate that rolled out of the Ship yards replaced an early frigate on a one to one basis not counting ships lost in combat and MIAs.
So there should by some early frigates kicking around in the very early period.  I'd suggest take the date of the Burke the -F-FF class frigate in sfc and add 60 years and that will be when the early frigates were completely phased out.

I hope that I answered your question to your satisfaction  

Hmmmm I think adding 60 years to the Burke date for the termination date of the Early Frigate is a bit too much, because that works out to be 2297, by which time they had Enterprise-B class ships operational, and is well after ST:VII. Having the early frigfate in the game would be nice but the dates just don't seem to match.....if the standard Burke was 2237 then that means you'd need the early Frigates aorund for 27 years to reach 2263, which is the earliest date in the game. But I do see your point about needing time to create a large FF fleet after the Burke was commissioned. According to the SFB fleet list you gave me, they made about 122 Burkes, not inlcuding the later variants. That works out to be 4.5 Frigates made per year until 2263, but then that's assuming that is the date that constrcution was stopped, which is probably an incorrect guess.

The question is: Could they have had a few of the Early Frigates around by 2263, and if so for how many years? If it's just for a few years more then it's probably not worth my time making it for the game.

However, the Early Heavy Cruiser is pretty cool....do you have dates for it?

[Atrahasis]

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Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.  

Then you knew something I didn't... that happens a lot.    I think there was always a conflict portraying James T. Kirk as the elite of the elite, captaining the elite starship in the Federation. And undoubtably it was refered to as the fleet flagship. Which couldn't relate to the way we use flagship today. That would be the command ship in a taskforce, directing fleet operations. Ever notice that most other starship captains in starfleet were either emotionaly unbalanced or so rigid that improvising was not possible? And no one but no one could bring themselves to observe the 'Prime Directive'. Just about every time it is mentioned it is about to be discarded.

Anyway, how would you consider that these starships got built? Multiple independent shipyards or a centralized one with many subassemblies built elsewhere. Like Warp nacelles, impulse engines and secondary hulls. I would guess it would be the latter for the reason that the cadets are trained at the academy in San Francisco. That and you figure they would be a little uptight with security constructing their cuttng edge starships. Then, perhaps, some of the more general purpose vessels were built elsewhere to free up sector 001 traffic and resources.  

Well, according to Ships of the Starfleet, the components were made by companies from all over the Federation, like the Phasers made in Italy, and the warp engines made on Alpha Centauri, and other components made on Andor. The yards are for consturcting the main hull and assembling these pieces together I imagine. They had different yards, there are at least two that we can attest are canon: The San Francisco Yards and Utopia Planitia on Mars.  

[ActiveX]

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Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.  

Then you knew something I didn't... that happens a lot.    I think there was always a conflict portraying James T. Kirk as the elite of the elite, captaining the elite starship in the Federation. And undoubtably it was refered to as the fleet flagship. Which couldn't relate to the way we use flagship today. That would be the command ship in a taskforce, directing fleet operations. Ever notice that most other starship captains in starfleet were either emotionaly unbalanced or so rigid that improvising was not possible? And no one but no one could bring themselves to observe the 'Prime Directive'. Just about every time it is mentioned it is about to be discarded.

Anyway, how would you consider that these starships got built? Multiple independent shipyards or a centralized one with many subassemblies built elsewhere. Like Warp nacelles, impulse engines and secondary hulls. I would guess it would be the latter for the reason that the cadets are trained at the academy in San Francisco. That and you figure they would be a little uptight with security constructing their cuttng edge starships. Then, perhaps, some of the more general purpose vessels were built elsewhere to free up sector 001 traffic and resources.  

Well, according to Ships of the Starfleet, the components were made by companies from all over the Federation, like the Phasers made in Italy, and the warp engines made on Alpha Centauri, and other components made on Andor. The yards are for consturcting the main hull and assembling these pieces together I imagine. They had different yards, there are at least two that we can attest are canon: The San Francisco Yards and Utopia Planitia on Mars.  

And it would make sense if there were more than just these two yards for non Starship vessels...

Trek din deal much with how the ships were built, just launch and everything else came after...

[Atrahasis]

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Is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering?  

According to Ships of the Starfleet, the Connie originally used PB-31 Model 3 warp units. In fact, it says, "The PB-31 series warp engines are basically unchanged from the date of her commissioning." I saw no reference to a PB-27 engine.

The Coronado apperently started out with (& ended with) the PB-47 engines. No reference or mention is made about any other type of engine. The only pennents shown are TMP era pennants, but I personnaly think it would have had TOS pennents, and then upgraded to TMP pennants after a certain date. But, hey, the TMP ones look great, in my opinion.

   

Thanks for the info, again this helps quite a bit. The Coronado and the Dreadnought both seemed to have started with the PB47's, but even then the PB-32's were still being used by a lot of ships and some ships never got upgraded to the PB-47's, like the Essex that I recall just had its PB-32's patched and improved over time. The Coronado seems to be almost a "Phase II" ship, appearing in that time between TOS and TMP.

Who thinks that PB-47-equipped ships should have greater warp engine power than the 15-point box?

[Bernard Guignard]

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Regarding the early frigate  Using the SFB time line the first TOS Frigate the Burke class Left the ship yards in Y127.
the Early years frigate was launched in Y85. This is a 42  year difference. If we assume say the space frame has
an operational life of 80 to 100 years then  we have a 40 to 60 year overlap where early frigates with some  tech up grades are being used. This would be logical since it would take time build up a frigate inventory  in the fleet.  I don't have federation and empire so I don't know the stats on ship production. I'd assume that eventually as each new frigate that rolled out of the Ship yards replaced an early frigate on a one to one basis not counting ships lost in combat and MIAs.
So there should by some early frigates kicking around in the very early period.  I'd suggest take the date of the Burke the -F-FF class frigate in sfc and add 60 years and that will be when the early frigates were completely phased out.

I hope that I answered your question to your satisfaction  

Hmmmm I think adding 60 years to the Burke date for the termination date of the Early Frigate is a bit too much, because that works out to be 2297, by which time they had Enterprise-B class ships operational, and is well after ST:VII. Having the early frigfate in the game would be nice but the dates just don't seem to match.....if the standard Burke was 2237 then that means you'd need the early Frigates aorund for 27 years to reach 2263, which is the earliest date in the game. But I do see your point about needing time to create a large FF fleet after the Burke was commissioned. According to the SFB fleet list you gave me, they made about 122 Burkes, not inlcuding the later variants. That works out to be 4.5 Frigates made per year until 2263, but then that's assuming that is the date that constrcution was stopped, which is probably an incorrect guess.

The question is: Could they have had a few of the Early Frigates around by 2263, and if so for how many years? If it's just for a few years more then it's probably not worth my time making it for the game.

However, the Early Heavy Cruiser is pretty cool....do you have dates for it?  

Damn I forgot that the SFC F-FF is based on the TMP Okinawa class. Thats what I get for trying to answer a question at 5 am. The lay out is Burke class which is Constitution Class Era Technology. I'd say yes they'd have a few early frigates around 2263. If the Texas class light cruisers were still operational why not a few frigates perhaps part of a mothball fleet or used as reservest ships or even training vessels. I'd say phased Completely by 2273 this way the Burkes first class of Burkes are past the mid point of thier operational life time and the Hottest frigate coming out of the ship yards is the Okinawa class or some other hottie .

Early heavy cruiser is Y80, 5 years before the Frigate.  FireSoul was thinking about adding ships from the early years into his sfb mod but there are weapons issues to over come and also timeline issues. They are neat ships, my one problem with the early years module is that the Texas class has armour but none of the other early years ships have it. Then there's the fact that the destroyer is single engined. I don't like that idea,  I prefer to have the Saladin Class launched around the same time as the Constitution class as being the first single engined starship.  For an early destroyer I've alway envisioned
the Marshall Class desgined by Rick Sternbach or perhaps fasa's Marklin Class Destroyer of which only a top view exists.
You know your Bonaventure Class Model with some retexturing could do as an early CA.  The Skys the Limit as they say.

Regarding the Coronado Warp engines they were alway PB47 mod 3  the carrier hull was laid down in 2256  launched in 2257and comissioned in 2258   years from Ships of the Star Starfleet.

the Constitution class was  laid down in 2214 launched  in 2217 and commissioned in 2218

Have fun      

[Atrahasis]

What is the SFB starting date for the Old Light Cruiser?

[Atrahasis]

Time for some personal rambling: The existence of the SFB Old Light Cruiser does not make sense anymore. It was supposed to have been a leftover from the days when they didn't have Warp Drive yet, but since the new TV show has ships with warp drive 150 years before TOS then obvioulsy the Old Light Cruiser idea is blown out of the water. However, we should keep it around and sub in either the Coventry or the Surya model for it, two designs which are at least light cruiser designs from Ships of the Starfleet.  

[Bernard Guignard]

Hi Atra
    I've scanned a couple of pages from the module it should answer your questions or create more.  

[Bernard Guignard]

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Time for some personal rambling: The existence of the SFB Old Light Cruiser does not make sense anymore. It was supposed to have been a leftover from the days when they didn't have Warp Drive yet, but since the new TV show has ships with warp drive 150 years before TOS then obvioulsy the Old Light Cruiser idea is blown out of the water. However, we should keep it around and sub in either the Coventry or the Surya model for it, two designs which are at least light cruiser designs from Ships of the Starfleet.  

 I'd suggest comming up with a precruser design of the Coventry or The Surya by using the Detroyat class as your starting point the primary hull looks older than either the Coventry or Surya  

Take care and be well  

[ActiveX]

Hey Atra, jist wanted to stop in and let you know that you aren't the only person who dun like the 'canon' beach ball and warp cucumber Pre-TOS style...

I'd like to think we humans would have more style than that...hehe...I mean the Space Shuttle has more style than the Daedalus...

[Atrahasis]

I just did some very interesting reading on the Early Years of SFB!

It looks like the Province-class Old Light Cruiser is feasible in the timeline after all because "sublight" in SFB terms means not able to maneuver at warp speeds in combat, not that it doesn't have warp drive at all, and so presumably the modern term "warp drive" means ships that can maneuver at warp speeds in combat. Ships could still travel between stars using powerful impulse engines that warped space. This explanation solves a lot of problems, especially for the Bonaventure galactic survey cruiser which I plan to release, one need not assign a 21st century date for its launch anymore because if it was the "first starship with warp drive" as Scotty says in that episode then it need not be older than the Province-class which is still being used. The Bonnie looks like a modern sister ship to the Connie anyways. The Bonnie and Connie, I like that.  

By the way Bernard, have you ever come across an SSD for the Bonnie?

Thanks to everyone else for their input as well.

[Reverend]

Good point Active X  

[Atrahasis]

I am having a moral dilemma: I want to make the Province-class OCL because it's specced in Orion Pirates, but......but.....it's so damned ugly! I would feel bad spending all that time making such an ugly retarded looking ship. And yet one is needed for the spec file.

What do people use for the OCL slot? The Daedalus? It may look like a beach ball, but in my opinion it looks a hell of a lot better than the Province from SFB. Moreover, it's canon.  

[jimkirk]

BTW Welcome back Thexter into modelling business. You were most wished and welcomed person for over a year.
I'm glad you have returned  

[Rogue]

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What do people use for the OCL slot? The Daedalus? It may look like a beach ball, but in my opinion it looks a hell of a lot better than the Province from SFB. Moreover, it's canon.  

Well. I use the... <cough> Kentucky <cough> because... well... Isn't that supposed to be it? And it is for only one specification... Soooo, it aint all that bad.