Topic: How do you guys feel about rear faceing arcs in SFC3?

[Alidar Jarok]

Why don't you try it, test it out, and see how much of a difference it makes?

You could balance it out by giving the Romulans more forward arcs

[Magnum357]

As a heavy Romulan player, I would like to make one suggestion to your mode.  Could you please decrease Klingon Ion cannons a little?  Those things are especially a killer to Romulans and are just a little too powerful in my opinion.  In the Manual, they say that Ion Cannons are designed to be a Powerful direct fire weapon that is effective in short range battles.  I don't really have a problem with this, but I was looking at the stats of this weapon and I think they might be one of the most powerful weapons in the game.  Ion Cannons have nearly as much firepower as a Medium Plasma and cost less in Power consumption and take less time to arm.  Personally, I think instead of 2 turns to arm, I think it should be increased to 3 turns, much like the Medium Plasma.  That way, a Klingon can get close and nail ya with his Ions, but will be a vulnerable a little longer then usual.  This would at least allow Romulans and Feds a little more time to deal with.  I don't think this would make the weapon too weak and make it more balanced overall to other weapons.

As for your other ideas, I like it a lot.  It would really make SFC3 have a little more variety.  If you do make this mode though, please make it available without having to worry about a large download.  I only use a modem and these other modes are just too big to make downloading them practical.  Also, the guys don't like my idea about balancing the Ion cannons.  They think they are just fine!  

[ActiveX]

Here is a thought...try turning the ship...  

[Magnum357]

ARE YOU MOCKING ME???  Dude, I really think the Ion Cannons need balancing, PERIOD!

[FMMonty]

Now if someone just posts something about lack of skill then this will turn into a wonderful flamefest

Ah, I want the magic photon back, that would sort out those ion cannons.

Seriously though why do you think the ion cannon is unbalanced?  

[Magnum357]

I've been trying to explain to people about Ion Cannons for a month now that they may be very unbalanced.  I play in GSA a lot with SFC3 and one thing I have notice is that Klingon ships with Ion Cannons are deadly.  Granted, they are pretty short range (Range 20 weapon, I guess that means 20,000 Km) but they can produce as much damage as a Medium Plasma, take less power to arm then a Quantum, and have more acuracy then most of the other Beam weapons in the game.  Ok, Klingon Diruptors and Photons are not as good as Romulan Disruptors or Fed Photons, and I suppose this is Activisions way of giving the Klingons a good weapon, but its too powerful.  I've noticed a lot on GSA that most klingons don't even bother with the Photons much, and only install a few light disruptors for long range sniping.  Most Klingon players just load a ton of Ion Cannons on their ships for lots of close range firepower.  I really don't have a problem for Klingon designers to do this if they want to, but its practically made some of the other Klingon weapons useless.  Also, Romulan ships have very poor Armor compared to Klingon and Fed armor.  Klingons have an advantage of Fast, highly armored ships with lots of heavy fire power with Ion cannons.  A good Klingon player can cause a lot of damage (even to a borg) with these combinatioins to his Klingon ship.  

I'm not saying decrease the damage output of the Ion cannon or increase the size of the weapon, I just think a simple increase on the Recharge rate of the weapon would really help balance out this weapon and force Klingon players to use other weapon systems on their ships.  Like I said above, when was the last time you saw a Klingon use Photons?

I also brought up the idea before about making Standard weapons have a little more firepower then Fast firing weapons.  Why?  Because standard Primaries weapons are practically useless compared to fast firing weapons.  I've heard people say that the fast firing primaries are already balanced due to cost increase.  I don't think that really is enough because they don't cost THAT much more compared to the overall ship cost in credits.  I just think a simple solution to this is too increase the damage output of Standards by 25 to 33%.  That would at least make Standard Primaries useful for something.  

[FMMonty]

Interesting point, one thing I forget is what is the reload rate of the klingon photon?

I totally agree about the fast firing weapons, they really make the normals useless, especially on the dyna.  

[James Formo]

Magnum 357- I will consider putting out a mod that uses all or mostly stock models, thus keeping the file to 20MB or less.

Regarding the ION cannons. Unfortunately recharge rate does not appear moddable. What is moddable is the energy required. Perhaps if more energy is required it well recharge slower. I will look into it. I can adjust damage or mass also. Here is what can be adjusted from the weapons.gf  

[HeavyItems\ION CANNON]
Description = "ION CANNON"
Cost = 1600
Mass = 250
Health = 30
Energy = 8.0
Damage = 14.0
Race = "K"

As far as the weak Rom armor, that is probably offset by cloaking. I will look into that also.
 

[Magnum357]

James, ya that is a problem in SFC3.  I haven't found anyway to adjust the recharge rate of weapons and that might be hard coded (damit Activision!).  If it was possible, increasing the Ion Cannons recharge rate from 2 to 3 would easily handle this.  I was hoping Activision would consider this in a patch, but who knows if a patch is coming.  I'm not sure if decreasing damage output is a good idea.  Lots of Klingons like the Ion Cannon and it is the only beam weapon for the Klingons (Beam weapons have many advantages compared to projectile weapons).  What could be done to discourage using only Ions and force Klingons to use other weapon systems might be to increase mass by about 100%.  This would make it harder for Klingons to load this weapon and it would increase the mass of the ship causing less maneuverability.  You might even decrease the health of the weapon to indicate a fragile component, but I'm sure many Klingons would not like that.  But increasing mass migh help considerably.  

If you where to go this route, I would hight suggest increasing Mass by 100% (maybe even more).  Weapon mass doesn't take up much of the overall ration of the ships mass as compared to other system.  

[mbday]

Quote:
James, ya that is a problem in SFC3.  I haven't found anyway to adjust the recharge rate of weapons and that might be hard coded (damit Activision!).  If it was possible, increasing the Ion Cannons recharge rate from 2 to 3 would easily handle this.  I was hoping Activision would consider this in a patch, but who knows if a patch is coming.  I'm not sure if decreasing damage output is a good idea.  Lots of Klingons like the Ion Cannon and it is the only beam weapon for the Klingons (Beam weapons have many advantages compared to projectile weapons).  What could be done to discourage using only Ions and force Klingons to use other weapon systems might be to increase mass by about 100%.  This would make it harder for Klingons to load this weapon and it would increase the mass of the ship causing less maneuverability.  You might even decrease the health of the weapon to indicate a fragile component, but I'm sure many Klingons would not like that.  But increasing mass migh help considerably.  

If you where to go this route, I would hight suggest increasing Mass by 100% (maybe even more).  Weapon mass doesn't take up much of the overall ration of the ships mass as compared to other system.    

Ok here is something you are missing. You say that most Klinks have the ION and a few light wepons for long range fireing.
Well what you do think happens to all of the power from say a Warp Core 5 when this is done. There is plenty left over to be put in to the ION and so two thing happen.
1) The wepons is over loaded.
2) The Wepon recharges faster.
SO if you take and remove some of your light wepons and only place a Med Plasma Trop on with a Warp Core 5 to 7 you will have a very powerfull wepon that chagres faster then you are seeing now. It is all about power mangment and the Klinks have found a way to over come that. And you see fly in GSA is deffrent then flying on the Dnay. As I have been told many times.  You need to get to know your emeny if you what to bet them.  

[James Formo]

I tested a maxed out Sovvy against a maxed out Negh'var in skirmish vs admiral AI. Obviously I will beat the AI no matter which ship I fly. What I go buy is how long it takes to win. It took the same amount of time to win flying either ship. So I feel they are balanced. Keep in mind this is with the stock arcs. I think how they kept the Klinks balanced with the Ion canon is limiting the heavy arcs. The Negh'var can only mount 2 forward and 2 rear canon, while I was able to fit the Sovvy with 6 quantums.  Actually could put in more if I had less phasers.  

The rear arc issue is moot as the ships seem to have plenty already and turn decent enough with maxed thrusters.

 

[Magnum357]

mbday,  I already know this with power management.  More power you have, the more powerful all your systems (especially weapons) are.  This is partially part of the reason why many SFB players don't think much of SFC3.  Its pretty easy to make even the smallest ship a friggen juggernaut.  I'm just basing my arguements off of the hard data from normal stuations (where you have no overload or other situations).  Those situations should be dealt with on ship design, I'm just comparing the weapon to other weapons.  But if you want to look at Ion Cannons in an Overload situation, depending apon how you design your ship, a fully overloaded Ion Cannon can have as much as 21 points of damage output up to range 6.  Compare that to a Quntum where the best you can do is probably 18 points of overload damage and the Ion still takes less power in the same amount of time to arm.  And if you look at Heavy Plasma, Overloaded Ions can still out power them (even at medium range) and are 25% more effiecient being Overloaded (12 points of Overloaded Ion Cannon power versus 16 point Standard Heavy Plasma) with much more efficent recharge rate... and we all know that Plasma Torps can't hit the side of a barn unless you are practically on top of the target.  

Now, lets compare the Ion Cannons to other Klingon weapon systems.  Lets look at the Klingon Torp and the Klingons Type 3 Disruptor.  The Klingon Photon only produces 6 points of damage, but only requires 6 points of power and it only takes 1 turn to recharge.  The Type 3 disruptor produces up to 8 points of damage, requires 8 points of power to charge, and only takes 1 turn to recharge.  So if you overload these weapons up to Max Overload power, that produces the following results...

K Photon = Max 9 Damage/ Power 9 points/ 1 turn recharge
K Disruptor 3S = Max 12 Damage/ Power 12 points/ 1 turn recharge
K Ion Cannon = Max 21 Damage/ Power 12 points/ 2 turn recharge

As you can see, only the Disruptor is close to comparable to the Ion cannon.  But the bad part about both the Klingon Photons and Disruptors is that they are very suceptable to AV and EM defenses (most projectiles in the game due) while the beam weapons are less suceptable (to a certain degree).  I'm just saying increasing the mass of the Ion Cannon might force Klingons to use other Disruptor weapons or Klingon Photons.  Heck, I've even seen some klingons use nothign but Ions.  Even though you can only overload up to 50% of the Max damage value, your ship can have tons of extra power available in reserve incase your Warp core take damage.  Another reason why many SFB fans cry "foul" because SFC3 is pretty much just pumping as much power and speed into the ship as possible.  

[SghnDubh]

One person's balance is another person's cheese. But I digress.

Rear arcs? Go for it. I echo Nanner.

Make them all Ion cannons, just to get Magnum's panties in a bunch.  

However, why not make them oblique-firing only? That is, keep a "blind spot" directly behind the ships? It would force a little more tactics into the mix....

 

[James Formo]

Well I posted this before I had checked out the bigger ships. The smaller classes have no rear arcs. I thought that would continue through the ship classe.

After playing the heaver ships more. I feel there good to go as they are. All races have advantages but they seem pretty well balanced.
I don't think the K-Torps are all that bad either. 6 damage at fire rate 1 versus 13 dam fire rate 2 for Feds. Kinda the same if you ask me.

Anyway I have my mod ready in a beta version.  Available at this Yahoo club.   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfcmodels/  Look for the Assimilation file in the files section.

I posted the link in my shuttle thread as well.   Yup shuttles now drop mines.  The refit screen now diplays weapon load outs, shield strengths
and so forth. Feds/KLinks/Roms each get 10 more shields. AI is stronger. A few missions by Pelican. Officers level up slower. A few other odds and ends.
At this point the ships are still 100% stock with the exceptions of minor shield variances due to the refit system and the shuttles.

After a week or so break, hope to expand this mod with the help of some more feedback from people that try it out

If you can't get it from Yahoo I just uploaded it to SFU, so I hope it will  be available there in a few days. When it is, I'll post it.

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