Topic: Anyone else think k-disruptors are missing somethi (Read 6454 times)

Cmdr. Krotz · « **on:** January 17, 2003, 03:19:59 pm »

Damn, ran out of space on the subject line....

Perhaps it's just me, but I find klingon disruptors rather uninspiring. They are basically fed phasers that have different artwork, and have real problems hitting targets at warp (a balance issue I think I've documented pretty thouroughly in the bugs section); it's disappointing too that every other race has genuinely different primary weapons, which have unique advantages and disadvantages, while k-dizzies are just broken fed-rehash.

I had an odd thought though...I think I've come up with an idea to make them really different. You see, roms and borg weapons both do more damage than phasers, but have slower recharge rates, and draw more power- having a klingon version of that just wouldn't be worth it (it's been done to death, and klinks don't need more power problems), plus that benefits close-in fighting, which was never the area klingons excelled at in SFB/old-SFC, which is still the inspiration for the attributes of the feds, klinks, and roms...instead klingons excelled at mid-range fighting, so I thought, why not have disruptors that have a lower base damage (so they'd do less damage at close range), but better decay rates (so they have an advantage in damage at longer ranges), maybe even lower power requirements, leaving the recharge rates where they are at...I think this change would give the klingons back their unique identity, as borg are good close-in, (patched) roms are good at close-range, feds are good all-round, klingons don't really have any sort of niche, and I think this would be a balanced approach to giving them one (though k-dizzy IFs that only do 2 points of damage would probably manage to offend someone...)

Anyways, that's my 2 cents...so what do ya think?

kevlar · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2003, 04:20:41 pm »

Yes, I think they miss something,,, specially when that something travels at warp velocity.

But I say don't touch them ( in terms of damage or range) until other klingon problems are solved/fixed, specially the ones evolving polaron to-hit rates, cloak effiency and general klingon warp- power shortages. I dare say that until warp shortage is fixed, so klingons can have a CLEAR SPEED advantage over most of their opponents im similar hulls, any attempt to make klingons relay in distance is doomed.

I wanted to add something else.: I also think that we are falling in a problem, and that problem is conceptualising klinks at the light of SFB , when in fact SFC III does not obey to the SFB spirit . In SFB , in general terms, klinks and feds shared the same amounts of power ( although feds had more power drainage) , feds had overall better shielding but still Klinks matched them in terms of front arc shields and had a clear superiority in turn rates and heavy weapons damage at distance. In SFCIII klinks have normally inferior shielding and are penalized at distance by the super potential of vollyed proximity q-torps. ( and the huge misses of both polarons and k-photons).
The wins i have under my belt on dynaverse have been at almost blank range, making full use tractors, the extra front hardpoint that my ship normally has and the faster-then-fed reload of heavy weapons. Also from what I know, the Ion cannon, a low range weapon, was substantially improved in the beta patch. So, maybe , and forgive me the boxing analogy, klingons are not the distance fighter that they once were, but rather a jab and move kind of boxer, that dances before their opponent.

Yes, we have weaker shields, and armor, but we can throw more punches at them. That has been my philosophy over dynaverse and, if i balance my wins and losses, it proved more successful than my SFB approach to klinks when dealing with feds ( a pity it doesn't work against borgs)

Cmdr. Krotz · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2003, 05:50:00 pm »

I think that if the lower base damage/ lower power cost/ improved decay rates model were used, it would take care of the problems of warp-power shortage and polaron accuracy- the main problem with the polaron is the power consumption, it's accuracy seems about the same as other torpedoes, but it's never going to hit as well as proximities, and bumping polarons, potential balance issues aside, either doesn't broadly help enough ships, or makes all other klink heavies unattractive....dizzies drawing less power miight help though, as well as if they did more damage than phasers at extended ranges (balancing fed's proximity fire).

The cloak is another matter, it's really hard for klingons to benefit much from it, because klingons depend on rate-of-fire to do their damage, which being cloaked detracts from, it's mostly good for position in the opening part of the engagement, and occasionally gaining a brief respite...aside from shaving about a second from transition times (matches the cloak sound effect better, and takes care of a couple other issues), I've played around with the beta patch quite a bit, and with the probes fixed, I've been on both end's of anti-cloak scans in my testing, and it really isn't bad (considering I've been playing the roms quite a bit, I would think that a pretty good endorsement); it's not gonna let a cloaking k'vort have its way with an akira, but it would be broke if it did.

The new ions REALLY are nifty, it's much better weapon than before, but significantly shorter ranged...it gives a good close-range advantage against the feds, but it's not going to de-throne the borg or (patched) roms as the short-range champions....

I'm certainly not arguing that current klingons can saber dance well, but 2 of the 4 races in the game are close-range specialists, so why not push for doing something different with the klingons...I believe many people think the currently implemented klingons are weaker than they should be, but as they don't have some hideously obvious flaw (like being able to miss all three torpedo shots fired at a tractored target), it's hard not to look like one is just whining/complaining...as it stands now, I was a staunch klingon flyer, it's what I got the games for in the first place, to fly a k'tinga in the st:ng universe, of all things...but after the patch, the roms make the klingons seem almost half as broken as the roms were/are in the release build/version, and so I've gone green, and if klingons aren't improved, I probably won't be the last; I never thought I'd see the day when I would actually think the raptor is a better BCH than the vor'cha, but that day has come....if I can come to that impression about the best of all klingon hulls, what does that say about the capabities of the klingons in general?

Jolan Tru.

Krotz,
Commanding the KWB (Klingon WarBird) Bugslayer

kevlar · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:24:08 pm »

doesn't say much.

I think they can't saber dance very well at the moment with heavier hulls. One can saber sdance with a bop or a k'vort, but I find it hard to do with any other class. The reasons for that are directly connected with the warp power problems, the lack of a clear speed advantge and that little thing you can do with the w key ( warp). In fact when you have the power to saber dance you don't have the speed /turn to do it right, and when you have the speed , you lack the power.

The info I got about the beat patch is second hand. I expected that the roms would get a major boost, because they really needed it...I feared that the klinks would got a completly short stick, and, apparently, that is what happend in the BETA patch. I stil have some hopes that taldren can make a couple of changes to sort things out in the official version ( what probably won't happen)

you might be right about the polarons, but I missed 3 consecutive discharges at a tractored akira with really low AV today, so I am not really much confident about them at the moment

Since the day I started playing with the klinks on SFC III ( and that was in the day i got the game ) I easly understood that klingons needed a small revision on some Things, and then that the roms needd a huge boost. I really can't understand why most software developers don't see what is obvious for a player in 2 days. . I always considered that it was harder to create a game than to more or less balance it... but software comapnies keep showing that aparently I am wrong. In the meantime I had to adapt myself to how things are- and it wasn't that easy , since I took a traditional SFB approach to klingons, when a "a la federation" tactic+the fire often tesis seems to work best.

The confirmation about the Ion cannon improved power opens a small window , at least for me, since i usually end up trading direct blows at distances of 3 to 6 . If I can , somehow make something near 40 damage from 2 overloaded ion's ( and beam weapons miss much less than torps)+ let's say at least 36 from 4 disruptors, it is a improvement. I fear nonetheless, that it is not the kind of improvement that will make klingons a half-popular choice. IN FACT; IF KLINGON PLAYERS START TO CHOOSE ROMS ; I FEAR THAT I WILL END UP BEING SOME KIND OF LONE RANGER .

Firestorm · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:54:15 pm »

I will continue to play Klingon until my Kahless Returns for the Glory of the Empire!!!!

I agree, we have a tough battle against the superior ships of, well, almost everyone except for maybe the Romulans. But, it will be an honorable battle!!!

Qa'pla

Tulmahk · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:02:10 am »

Here we go again...

This isn't SFC2, nor is it, thank the Praetor, SFB.

Do you think that in 100 years time the Klingon Empire just might've changed it's philosophy on tactics? Well yes, it has. It's gone from the archaic Saber Dance to the Fire First, Fire Often philosophy. A philosophy that is based arond not disruptors, but heavy weapons. And still most Klingon captains wrongly worship at the altar of the disruptors.

We Roms were forced to suffer Shade and Die® through not one, not two but THREE SFC titles. Now, at last, another empire has some very real problems, instead of just us. Oh, Taldren's AntiRom Division was hard at work during the creation of SFC3, too. Just look at the UberProbes?, Magical Missing Plasma? and Weakest Armor Known?.

IMHO, the problem isn't with the Klingon ships or technology. It's with those who pilot them. And I don't mean that as a slight. I mean to point out that most Klingon captains have their heads still stuck in SFC2/SFB. This, and only this, is what is keeping the empire down right now. As soon as you put your bumpy heads together, and come up with some viable ship configurations, crew hiring philosophies and stop putting Warp X cores in all your Negs (hint, hint), you will become a force to be reconed with.

Klingon ships have always given me a harder time than Federation ones. In SFC3, it's no different. You are Klingons! A Klingon does not make human excuses; when he encounters a problem, he conquers it!

Whiplash · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:01:51 am »

I like the idea of slighly lower damage for a better decay rate. Flatten out the damage curve a bit.

Personally, I'd love to see the disruptors fire quite a bit faster than they do and lower the damage as needed for balance. But given how hard it is to saber dance in this game, I think they would suck.

W.

Cmdr. Krotz · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2003, 04:06:25 am »

Quote:

Here we go again...

This isn't SFC2, nor is it, thank the Praetor, SFB.

Do you think that in 100 years time the Klingon Empire just might've changed it's philosophy on tactics? Well yes, it has. It's gone from the archaic Saber Dance to the Fire First, Fire Often philosophy. A philosophy that is based arond not disruptors, but heavy weapons. And still most Klingon captains wrongly worship at the altar of the disruptors.

We Roms were forced to suffer Shade and Die® through not one, not two but THREE SFC titles. Now, at last, another empire has some very real problems, instead of just us. Oh, Taldren's AntiRom Division was hard at work during the creation of SFC3, too. Just look at the UberProbes?, Magical Missing Plasma? and Weakest Armor Known?.

IMHO, the problem isn't with the Klingon ships or technology. It's with those who pilot them. And I don't mean that as a slight. I mean to point out that most Klingon captains have their heads still stuck in SFC2/SFB. This, and only this, is what is keeping the empire down right now. As soon as you put your bumpy heads together, and come up with some viable ship configurations, crew hiring philosophies and stop putting Warp X cores in all your Negs (hint, hint), you will become a force to be reconed with.

Klingon ships have always given me a harder time than Federation ones. In SFC3, it's no different. You are Klingons! A Klingon does not make human excuses; when he encounters a problem, he conquers it!

Silly Tulmahk, saber dancing was/is predicated on speed/manueverability (to maintain a favorable range, and to be able to keep whichever of the front 3 shields you wanted at the target), superior/broad arcs (to give the flexibility to maintain fire while not flying straight at something, also helpful for spreading damage across the front shields), and let us not forget disruptor efficiency (the combination of superior accuracy AND RATE OF FIRE) to give an advantage at mid-range (in damage over time).

That being said, most klingon heavy weapons have an advantage in rates of fire....the catch is that klingons tend to have less concentrated, much narrower heavy weapon arcs (the primaries being the main concentration of firepower, at least on the preferred klingon ships), and more importantly, klingon heavy weapons, with the exception of k-photons (and the new, patched ion cannon), are a heavier burden on klingon power cores (which average about 80-85% of a comparable fed warp core). The implication of this is that while klingons have an advantage in rate-of-fire, their actual advantage in damage over time isn't all that great. Keep in mind that this can become an issue, because for rate-of-fire to be an effective balancing tool, the damage rates over time need to give a clear advantage to the one with the weaker, faster firing weapons, because they may not always be able to always be in position to take advantage of the weapons rate of fire (to make an exaggerated, but readily understandable example, imagine filling up all your ships arcs with fast primaries- unless your arcs are all forward, you won't be getting full use out of them, and even if they are concentrated all forward, in the narrow arcs in SFC3, you'll likely end up presenting your sides at some point), and also you are less likely to be hitting the same shield over time, while a weapon with a bigger punch will collapse a shield and start doing some internal damage (note that the ideal range for engaging a fed ship with disruptors, between accuracy and firing rates, klingon disruptors had a 50-100% advantage in damge inflicted over time...early era ships give feds a slight edge in phaser damage, but not enough to fully mitigate the klink advantage, and by mid/late eras, the fed phaser advantage decreases significantly).

Most experienced klingon players that I am familiar with actually DO know that big warp cores ( the warp core problem can't always be avoided, because of power issues, but I do agree with you the warp-IX core is a much better choice for the negh'var)and loading up on shields is the quickest way to destroy one of the few real advantages klinks still have (I apologize if there is a certain "edge" in my response, but I perhaps feel you are being unnecessarily pedantic).

While I cannot comment on rom armor, plasmas and probes are another matter....it's been said many, many times, yet I will say it again, even though people will still complain and offer up remedies for stuff that is fixed, as of the beta patch (which I know is not widely available, but people in-the-know have still posted encouraging stuff in the rom complaint threads, not that anyone seems to listen....)- rom plasmas, rom fast dizzies, and probes have all been fixed, they work fine, I can vouch for that personally (I wouldn't have turned "green" with envy if the rommies still sucked).

Lastly, I don't think klinks are completely broke (aside from issues engaging targets that are at warp, and those horrible mid-size hull classes, you know what they are), but I am trying to offer a balanced approach to give klingons some kind of identity (and one I think is generally more reasonable than trying to beef up particular heavy weapons, i.e. polarons), something they are clearly lacking when compared to the feds and fixed rommies , who have stayed pretty consistent with what they were in older SFC titles (except when the patch comes out, the won't be any more escaping the overloaded plasmas o' death, MWUHAHAHAHAHA!)

Thanks for your input though

Jolan Tru

Cmdr. Krotz · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2003, 03:19:59 pm »

Damn, ran out of space on the subject line....

Perhaps it's just me, but I find klingon disruptors rather uninspiring. They are basically fed phasers that have different artwork, and have real problems hitting targets at warp (a balance issue I think I've documented pretty thouroughly in the bugs section); it's disappointing too that every other race has genuinely different primary weapons, which have unique advantages and disadvantages, while k-dizzies are just broken fed-rehash.

I had an odd thought though...I think I've come up with an idea to make them really different. You see, roms and borg weapons both do more damage than phasers, but have slower recharge rates, and draw more power- having a klingon version of that just wouldn't be worth it (it's been done to death, and klinks don't need more power problems), plus that benefits close-in fighting, which was never the area klingons excelled at in SFB/old-SFC, which is still the inspiration for the attributes of the feds, klinks, and roms...instead klingons excelled at mid-range fighting, so I thought, why not have disruptors that have a lower base damage (so they'd do less damage at close range), but better decay rates (so they have an advantage in damage at longer ranges), maybe even lower power requirements, leaving the recharge rates where they are at...I think this change would give the klingons back their unique identity, as borg are good close-in, (patched) roms are good at close-range, feds are good all-round, klingons don't really have any sort of niche, and I think this would be a balanced approach to giving them one (though k-dizzy IFs that only do 2 points of damage would probably manage to offend someone...)

Anyways, that's my 2 cents...so what do ya think?

kevlar · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2003, 04:20:41 pm »

Yes, I think they miss something,,, specially when that something travels at warp velocity.

But I say don't touch them ( in terms of damage or range) until other klingon problems are solved/fixed, specially the ones evolving polaron to-hit rates, cloak effiency and general klingon warp- power shortages. I dare say that until warp shortage is fixed, so klingons can have a CLEAR SPEED advantage over most of their opponents im similar hulls, any attempt to make klingons relay in distance is doomed.

I wanted to add something else.: I also think that we are falling in a problem, and that problem is conceptualising klinks at the light of SFB , when in fact SFC III does not obey to the SFB spirit . In SFB , in general terms, klinks and feds shared the same amounts of power ( although feds had more power drainage) , feds had overall better shielding but still Klinks matched them in terms of front arc shields and had a clear superiority in turn rates and heavy weapons damage at distance. In SFCIII klinks have normally inferior shielding and are penalized at distance by the super potential of vollyed proximity q-torps. ( and the huge misses of both polarons and k-photons).
The wins i have under my belt on dynaverse have been at almost blank range, making full use tractors, the extra front hardpoint that my ship normally has and the faster-then-fed reload of heavy weapons. Also from what I know, the Ion cannon, a low range weapon, was substantially improved in the beta patch. So, maybe , and forgive me the boxing analogy, klingons are not the distance fighter that they once were, but rather a jab and move kind of boxer, that dances before their opponent.

Yes, we have weaker shields, and armor, but we can throw more punches at them. That has been my philosophy over dynaverse and, if i balance my wins and losses, it proved more successful than my SFB approach to klinks when dealing with feds ( a pity it doesn't work against borgs)

Cmdr. Krotz · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2003, 05:50:00 pm »

I think that if the lower base damage/ lower power cost/ improved decay rates model were used, it would take care of the problems of warp-power shortage and polaron accuracy- the main problem with the polaron is the power consumption, it's accuracy seems about the same as other torpedoes, but it's never going to hit as well as proximities, and bumping polarons, potential balance issues aside, either doesn't broadly help enough ships, or makes all other klink heavies unattractive....dizzies drawing less power miight help though, as well as if they did more damage than phasers at extended ranges (balancing fed's proximity fire).

The cloak is another matter, it's really hard for klingons to benefit much from it, because klingons depend on rate-of-fire to do their damage, which being cloaked detracts from, it's mostly good for position in the opening part of the engagement, and occasionally gaining a brief respite...aside from shaving about a second from transition times (matches the cloak sound effect better, and takes care of a couple other issues), I've played around with the beta patch quite a bit, and with the probes fixed, I've been on both end's of anti-cloak scans in my testing, and it really isn't bad (considering I've been playing the roms quite a bit, I would think that a pretty good endorsement); it's not gonna let a cloaking k'vort have its way with an akira, but it would be broke if it did.

The new ions REALLY are nifty, it's much better weapon than before, but significantly shorter ranged...it gives a good close-range advantage against the feds, but it's not going to de-throne the borg or (patched) roms as the short-range champions....

I'm certainly not arguing that current klingons can saber dance well, but 2 of the 4 races in the game are close-range specialists, so why not push for doing something different with the klingons...I believe many people think the currently implemented klingons are weaker than they should be, but as they don't have some hideously obvious flaw (like being able to miss all three torpedo shots fired at a tractored target), it's hard not to look like one is just whining/complaining...as it stands now, I was a staunch klingon flyer, it's what I got the games for in the first place, to fly a k'tinga in the st:ng universe, of all things...but after the patch, the roms make the klingons seem almost half as broken as the roms were/are in the release build/version, and so I've gone green, and if klingons aren't improved, I probably won't be the last; I never thought I'd see the day when I would actually think the raptor is a better BCH than the vor'cha, but that day has come....if I can come to that impression about the best of all klingon hulls, what does that say about the capabities of the klingons in general?

Jolan Tru.

Krotz,
Commanding the KWB (Klingon WarBird) Bugslayer

kevlar · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:24:08 pm »

doesn't say much.

I think they can't saber dance very well at the moment with heavier hulls. One can saber sdance with a bop or a k'vort, but I find it hard to do with any other class. The reasons for that are directly connected with the warp power problems, the lack of a clear speed advantge and that little thing you can do with the w key ( warp). In fact when you have the power to saber dance you don't have the speed /turn to do it right, and when you have the speed , you lack the power.

The info I got about the beat patch is second hand. I expected that the roms would get a major boost, because they really needed it...I feared that the klinks would got a completly short stick, and, apparently, that is what happend in the BETA patch. I stil have some hopes that taldren can make a couple of changes to sort things out in the official version ( what probably won't happen)

you might be right about the polarons, but I missed 3 consecutive discharges at a tractored akira with really low AV today, so I am not really much confident about them at the moment

Since the day I started playing with the klinks on SFC III ( and that was in the day i got the game ) I easly understood that klingons needed a small revision on some Things, and then that the roms needd a huge boost. I really can't understand why most software developers don't see what is obvious for a player in 2 days. . I always considered that it was harder to create a game than to more or less balance it... but software comapnies keep showing that aparently I am wrong. In the meantime I had to adapt myself to how things are- and it wasn't that easy , since I took a traditional SFB approach to klingons, when a "a la federation" tactic+the fire often tesis seems to work best.

The confirmation about the Ion cannon improved power opens a small window , at least for me, since i usually end up trading direct blows at distances of 3 to 6 . If I can , somehow make something near 40 damage from 2 overloaded ion's ( and beam weapons miss much less than torps)+ let's say at least 36 from 4 disruptors, it is a improvement. I fear nonetheless, that it is not the kind of improvement that will make klingons a half-popular choice. IN FACT; IF KLINGON PLAYERS START TO CHOOSE ROMS ; I FEAR THAT I WILL END UP BEING SOME KIND OF LONE RANGER .

Firestorm · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:54:15 pm »

I will continue to play Klingon until my Kahless Returns for the Glory of the Empire!!!!

I agree, we have a tough battle against the superior ships of, well, almost everyone except for maybe the Romulans. But, it will be an honorable battle!!!

Qa'pla

Tulmahk · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:02:10 am »

Here we go again...

This isn't SFC2, nor is it, thank the Praetor, SFB.

Do you think that in 100 years time the Klingon Empire just might've changed it's philosophy on tactics? Well yes, it has. It's gone from the archaic Saber Dance to the Fire First, Fire Often philosophy. A philosophy that is based arond not disruptors, but heavy weapons. And still most Klingon captains wrongly worship at the altar of the disruptors.

We Roms were forced to suffer Shade and Die® through not one, not two but THREE SFC titles. Now, at last, another empire has some very real problems, instead of just us. Oh, Taldren's AntiRom Division was hard at work during the creation of SFC3, too. Just look at the UberProbes?, Magical Missing Plasma? and Weakest Armor Known?.

IMHO, the problem isn't with the Klingon ships or technology. It's with those who pilot them. And I don't mean that as a slight. I mean to point out that most Klingon captains have their heads still stuck in SFC2/SFB. This, and only this, is what is keeping the empire down right now. As soon as you put your bumpy heads together, and come up with some viable ship configurations, crew hiring philosophies and stop putting Warp X cores in all your Negs (hint, hint), you will become a force to be reconed with.

Klingon ships have always given me a harder time than Federation ones. In SFC3, it's no different. You are Klingons! A Klingon does not make human excuses; when he encounters a problem, he conquers it!

Whiplash · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:01:51 am »

I like the idea of slighly lower damage for a better decay rate. Flatten out the damage curve a bit.

Personally, I'd love to see the disruptors fire quite a bit faster than they do and lower the damage as needed for balance. But given how hard it is to saber dance in this game, I think they would suck.

W.

Cmdr. Krotz

Re: Anyone else think k-disruptors are missing somethi

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