Topic: Two serious 2.5.4.12 Bugs

[762]

That really sucks hard about the fusions. It's too bad, it was nice to have an alternative to carrying Hornets all the time.

[Corbomite]

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That really sucks hard about the fusions. It's too bad, it was nice to have an alternative to carrying Hornets all the time.  

Actually, now that Defend Me works right they are doable, albeit more attention demanding than the "drop and let them do their thing" tactics that Hornets and Yellow Jackets enjoy. Just launch Wasps early and keep them close until you need them.

[The_Infiltrator]

Why bother. As it stands now, fusion fighters come out 7 years after hellbore ones, have less armament, and now have a bug that drastically reduces their effectiveness. Load up with hellbores and make them pay, since the comedy of errors against what should be the hydran's true fighter continues.

[Rod O'neal]

I don't think that fusion fighters taking 30secs (approx. 1 turn?) to arm is a real big prob. It's quite a long time, and it would be a lot better if it were faster though, especially in fleet actions where it's harder to launch/relaunch at a safe distance. The other directfire ftrs firing instantly after launch, to me, is a big problem. I imagine people using them as "range zero, directfire scatterpacks". Especially if you have ftr launch hotkeyed.  This could be a major exploit. Or am I missreading something here.  

[762]

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I don't think that fusion fighters taking 30secs (approx. 1 turn?) to arm is a real big prob.

You clearly have never used fighters in PvP.

[TarMinyatur]

Though 762's post is a bit harsh, I do understand his point.

30-second arming Wasps are like 30-second arming scatterpacks. There usefulness comes from their shock effect.

As in, "Holy ****, I've got a boatload of potential fusion damage to deal with right now!", when a Lord Commander drops its Wasps on your nose. As it is now, I have a whole turn to dispatch them, so I don't really worry about them at all. The Hydran will clearly opt for rapid-firing Hornets instead. Unfortunately, the Wasps have been made obsolete with the 4.12 patch, in my opinion.

[Lepton1]

I am going to try out these fusion fighters for myself, but can't you just launch them earlier??  If it takes 30 seconds, account for that.   Off the top of my head I would say launch fighters at a good distance from your target in defend me mode which should keep them close to the ship.  Ride in with them for 30 seconds and by the time you reach your target, they are ready to go.

[Cleaven]

The tactics of fighters (and PFs) can be devestating if you are being pursued closely and can launch them right after the enemy has hit you with all his phasers and he overruns them himself just as they come on line with main weapons. I have been having fun with photon and gatling armed fighters doing this. You lose some to PD but the survivors really can hurt.  

[Corbomite]

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I am going to try out these fusion fighters for myself, but can't you just launch them earlier??  If it takes 30 seconds, account for that.   Off the top of my head I would say launch fighters at a good distance from your target in defend me mode which should keep them close to the ship.  Ride in with them for 30 seconds and by the time you reach your target, they are ready to go.  

That works OK for the first pass, but what happens when you have to relaunch and the enemy isn't so far away? A good human pilot will use that time to best advantage if they know what's good for them. Since there won't be a fix for this, when I play Hydran I will use mixed loadouts if I want Wasps, but not Wasps alone.

[3dot14]

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I don't think that fusion fighters taking 30secs (approx. 1 turn?) to arm is a real big prob.

You clearly have never used fighters in PvP.  

Surely the "drop, fire and retreive in less than 10 sec" tactic is not the only one? I am tired of seeing fighters being used as range zero suicide shuttles, and has to be dropped point blank... Especially, now the Fighter commands seem to be working. They can do so many more things if given their wings and alllowed to fly out a little... (PD seekers, corner a target, harrassing w/ phasers, divert enemy fire...)

Personally, I don't see the big fuss. But I have rarely used fighters (as main combat force. I use fighters usually in "mop-up" role)

[The_Infiltrator]

FIghters can be so unreliable, due to bugs or wacky AI, that in general Hydran players will only launch fighters when they can be used for maximum effect. Sort of the exclamation point. Also the "Fleet in being" concept applies. I've gone entire battles where I didn't launch them - but where the enemy had to be prepared if I did. An illustration:

Harrass - exposes fighters to enemy fire, fighters may get too close anyway despite orders, missile armed fighters won't get close enough to trigger the missile launch routine frequently. Also totally useless in a multi ship enviroment, as they only maintain harrass range to the target ship and totally ignore others.
Attack - self evident
Defend me - even when working this command is very problematic. First, when set to defend, frequently when set, the fighters will move beyond a range that they will engage missiles or other incoming similar threats from your ship, making them unreliable for defense in this area. Second is that a acute enemy player will simply fire missiles at the fighters instead of your ship. Since the fighters are close to the ship, it is difficult to determine who is being shot at, and therefore problems can result due to this. Third is the fact that since fighters (as with all AI) have no concept of the idea of effective range, they will frequently fire their own weapons at ship targets and then be unable to screen your ship from threats. Fourth is the fact that if the enemy ship has a angle of attack (or better term, angle on the bow) of 0 degrees or thereabouts (IE pointing you) the fighters will switch their own orders to attack and then move to attack the target. This wonderful behavior is not a bug, but actually a "feature" based on a design decision. This will also happen if you move too close to the enemy ship, even if they are pointing away from you.

Basically fixing the defend me problem enables the return of the controlled fighter hellbore saberdance, a lost tactic in recent days. Breaking the fusion fighters in return though isn't exactly what we had in mind in return though.

[AdmiralFrey_XC]

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FIghters can be so unreliable, due to bugs or wacky AI, that in general Hydran players will only launch fighters when they can be used for maximum effect. Sort of the exclamation point. Also the "Fleet in being" concept applies. I've gone entire battles where I didn't launch them - but where the enemy had to be prepared if I did. An illustration:

...
Defend me - even when working this command is very problematic. First, when set to defend, frequently when set, the fighters will move beyond a range that they will engage missiles or other incoming similar threats from your ship, making them unreliable for defense in this area. Second is that a acute enemy player will simply fire missiles at the fighters instead of your ship. Since the fighters are close to the ship, it is difficult to determine who is being shot at, and therefore problems can result due to this. Third is the fact that since fighters (as with all AI) have no concept of the idea of effective range, they will frequently fire their own weapons at ship targets and then be unable to screen your ship from threats. Fourth is the fact that if the enemy ship has a angle of attack (or better term, angle on the bow) of 0 degrees or thereabouts (IE pointing you) the fighters will switch their own orders to attack and then move to attack the target. This wonderful behavior is not a bug, but actually a "feature" based on a design decision. This will also happen if you move too close to the enemy ship, even if they are pointing away from you.....

" it is difficult to determine who is being shot at, and therefore problems can result due to this."

For who to determine? The AI knows EXACTLY who everyone is shooting at.

While I agree that this 30 sec arming for Fusion Equipped H Fighters is Not A Good Thing, look at what DOES work on fighters now.
 

[TalonClaw]

At this point we need to just play the game and adjust our tactics accordingly.  If you use fusion fighters you will just have to realize that they have to be launched early.

Unless Dave finds it in his heart to do one more patch, which I doubt is likely, we just need to learn to play the game and adjust accordingly.  

[762]

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I don't think that fusion fighters taking 30secs (approx. 1 turn?) to arm is a real big prob.

You clearly have never used fighters in PvP.  

Surely the "drop, fire and retreive in less than 10 sec" tactic is not the only one? I am tired of seeing fighters being used as range zero suicide shuttles, and has to be dropped point blank... Especially, now the Fighter commands seem to be working. They can do so many more things if given their wings and alllowed to fly out a little... (PD seekers, corner a target, harrassing w/ phasers, divert enemy fire...)

Personally, I don't see the big fuss. But I have rarely used fighters (as main combat force. I use fighters usually in "mop-up" role)  

Not the only one, but it is a big one. Fighters also cannot be used as range 0 suicide shuttles since it took 8 impluses for them to arm before. Even a pursuing enemy 8-10 hexes behind is fairly safe as he will be on the fighters before they can arm.

Sadly TalonClaw is right. It looks like Wasps are out of the picture.  

[SPQR Renegade001]

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Sadly TalonClaw is right. It looks like Wasps are out of the picture.  

After all this noise about the wasps being broken, I took a few quick spins in the 'ol RN.  I gotta say, those 9 Wasps made real short work of the AI. I'd have to choose those over my native Centurians any day vs AI or vs a human.  

[The_Infiltrator]

With gatlings, or fusions?