Topic: SFC3 Primaries need an extra damage boost.

[Magnum357]

has anyone notice this?  I don't think anyone uses Standard Primary weapons anymore (unless you are a newbie).  why you might ask?  because they are just about useless!  For example, on almost all my designed ships, I use Fast firing Primaries because over the course of one turn, I can do more damage then an Overloaded Standard Primary weapon.   Here is an example of a Standard PH-IX versus a Fast Firing PH-IX...


PH-IX (Standard)
Power draw = 2
Arm Time = 1
Max Damage = 4

PH-IX (Fast Load)
Power draw = 2
Arm Time = 0.5
Max Damage = 3

As you can see, the Fast Load PH-IX has an advantage because the Fast Load Phaser can cuase 6 points of damage with no Overload, while the Standard version needs help from overloading to get 6 points of damage output.  Add in Overload power for the Fast Load Phaser and that can give you 8 or 9 points of damage while standard at best would only give you 6.  I've checked other Primary weapons and they fall under the same problem.  here is an example of a Rom Disruptor...

ROM Dis-4 (Standard)
Power draw = 12
Arm Time = 1.3
Max Damage = 12

ROM Dis-4 (Fast Load)
Power draw = 12
Arm Time = 0.7
Max Damage = 9

See the picture?  Same thing occurs here, but only worse.  The Fast Firing Disruptor can cause 18 points of damage in the same time a Standard can only cause 12.  Add in the factor of an overloaded Fast Load Disruptor and watch out!  That can result in an Overload damage of a 26 or 27 points while a standard Disruptor struggles with a max damage after overloading of 18.  Now, add in the factor of putting multiple Fast Load Primaries on ships and you can see quickly that using Standard Primaries is suicide!

I think a simple solution to this is just increase the damage out put by a minimum of 25%, maybe even incease all Standard Primaries to 50% possibly.  This would at least make the Standard Primaries useful.

[NannerSlug]

personally, i would like to see ALL weapons juiced a bit.. but i can do that in a mod and might do it somtime soon.

[TarMinyatur]

The fast-firing versions have more mass. Perhaps this is where one might tweak them rather than increasing the damage of regular firing versions. Perhaps make the Ph-IXF weigh twice that of the Ph-IX? If I remember correctly, it's only 25% or so more.

Anyways, I used regular primary versions for cloaking ships. I didn't really need rapid fire versions. I liked to fire big volleys when I uncloaked on the enemy's flank...then I scrammed and recloaked.

[Lieutenant_Q]

For my primary phasers, i would always use the Fast Phasers, but for arcs where i just wanted to have them covered, but didnt want to be facing that way all the time, like the Port and Starboard Side Arcs, i would use the Slow firing.   It gives me some extra tonnage that i can put into either a heavier Omni-Phaser, or a Q-Torp instead of a P-torp.

Somethings that i would like to see though,  Are faster firing (at the cost of damage) primaries.  Maybe make it a special firing mode, call it disable, and make it fire like a Phaser-G did in SFC I and II.  Drawback: each time fired a seperate to hit check is made.  The plus, if it hits a weapon harpoint it does full damage to the harpoint that is hit, but only the partial damage if it hits the hull or sheilds or something internal like the Warp Core, or computer.

Two: better weapon arcs: SFC I and II had much better firing arcs, it makes no sense that weapons would lose some firing ability over 80 years, if anything the arcs should be wider.

Three: Hardpoints are still too strong, most primary weapons can take everything but a Heavy Plasma Torpedo and still function.  Make the weapon hard points weaker, and also, if the weapon is reduced to zero health, call it destroyed, no repairs except for at a starbase or planet.  And make weapons cease to function if they were reduced to red.  Its too hard to disable ships now as it is, and if you knock out an annoying weapon system, the enemy can have it back online before you can get their second one offline completely.

Four: add the Warp Nacelles as targets, if they are dropped into the yellow a ship can no longer engage warp until the nacelle is brought back online.  Think of it as a permanent Tachyon pulse if the Nacelle is put into black.  

[Mike H]

Although I haven't played SFC3 in awhile.... As a Rom, I usually don't bother with the fast firing disruptors.  My battles are won or lost with the plasma.  I usually don't plan on staying uncloaked long enough to where the fast-fire disruptors are all that useful.  I'll take the lower mass and cost.

On Klingon ships I find the fast-fire a much better option, as I don't go into cloak nearly as much.

MTH

[The_Pelican]

I'll explain a use for the Standard Fire, they are useful for ships that have low defences, but have a cloaking device - a Rom ship for example. They deliver more damage in a single blow, when flying Rom, you generally wait, cloaked, for your Plasma's to charge before you move in to attack, having Fast charging weapons is pointless, as they deliver less damage, and you're not going to be using them for 3 turns, plenty of time for them to charge.

In simple terms, they are good for players who want to Alpha Strike, retreat/hide, then Alpha Strike again.

Fast Firing primaries are good for those who like to go toe-to-toe.

[Magnum357]

True, but I don't use my Roms like that.  I hardly ever use Plasmas on my ships and rely on disruptor fire against the enemy.  I usually use beam weapons at ideally medium range, you usually have to get extremely close to be effective with the Plasma.  Lots of Roms like to use the cloak for sudden attack then hide quickly.  Although I can do that too, but I usually design my Roms so that they can survive a fire fight with lots of speed and maneuverability.  So often, I have to engage the enemy in more time and that makes the Fast Firing Weapons have an advantage.

I would think the Roms would like more powerful Standard Primaries the most.  Who knows, might actually make the Roms a little more potent in SFC3.

[Magnum357]

has anyone notice this?  I don't think anyone uses Standard Primary weapons anymore (unless you are a newbie).  why you might ask?  because they are just about useless!  For example, on almost all my designed ships, I use Fast firing Primaries because over the course of one turn, I can do more damage then an Overloaded Standard Primary weapon.   Here is an example of a Standard PH-IX versus a Fast Firing PH-IX...


PH-IX (Standard)
Power draw = 2
Arm Time = 1
Max Damage = 4

PH-IX (Fast Load)
Power draw = 2
Arm Time = 0.5
Max Damage = 3

As you can see, the Fast Load PH-IX has an advantage because the Fast Load Phaser can cuase 6 points of damage with no Overload, while the Standard version needs help from overloading to get 6 points of damage output.  Add in Overload power for the Fast Load Phaser and that can give you 8 or 9 points of damage while standard at best would only give you 6.  I've checked other Primary weapons and they fall under the same problem.  here is an example of a Rom Disruptor...

ROM Dis-4 (Standard)
Power draw = 12
Arm Time = 1.3
Max Damage = 12

ROM Dis-4 (Fast Load)
Power draw = 12
Arm Time = 0.7
Max Damage = 9

See the picture?  Same thing occurs here, but only worse.  The Fast Firing Disruptor can cause 18 points of damage in the same time a Standard can only cause 12.  Add in the factor of an overloaded Fast Load Disruptor and watch out!  That can result in an Overload damage of a 26 or 27 points while a standard Disruptor struggles with a max damage after overloading of 18.  Now, add in the factor of putting multiple Fast Load Primaries on ships and you can see quickly that using Standard Primaries is suicide!

I think a simple solution to this is just increase the damage out put by a minimum of 25%, maybe even incease all Standard Primaries to 50% possibly.  This would at least make the Standard Primaries useful.

[NannerSlug]

personally, i would like to see ALL weapons juiced a bit.. but i can do that in a mod and might do it somtime soon.

[TarMinyatur]

The fast-firing versions have more mass. Perhaps this is where one might tweak them rather than increasing the damage of regular firing versions. Perhaps make the Ph-IXF weigh twice that of the Ph-IX? If I remember correctly, it's only 25% or so more.

Anyways, I used regular primary versions for cloaking ships. I didn't really need rapid fire versions. I liked to fire big volleys when I uncloaked on the enemy's flank...then I scrammed and recloaked.

[Lieutenant_Q]

For my primary phasers, i would always use the Fast Phasers, but for arcs where i just wanted to have them covered, but didnt want to be facing that way all the time, like the Port and Starboard Side Arcs, i would use the Slow firing.   It gives me some extra tonnage that i can put into either a heavier Omni-Phaser, or a Q-Torp instead of a P-torp.

Somethings that i would like to see though,  Are faster firing (at the cost of damage) primaries.  Maybe make it a special firing mode, call it disable, and make it fire like a Phaser-G did in SFC I and II.  Drawback: each time fired a seperate to hit check is made.  The plus, if it hits a weapon harpoint it does full damage to the harpoint that is hit, but only the partial damage if it hits the hull or sheilds or something internal like the Warp Core, or computer.

Two: better weapon arcs: SFC I and II had much better firing arcs, it makes no sense that weapons would lose some firing ability over 80 years, if anything the arcs should be wider.

Three: Hardpoints are still too strong, most primary weapons can take everything but a Heavy Plasma Torpedo and still function.  Make the weapon hard points weaker, and also, if the weapon is reduced to zero health, call it destroyed, no repairs except for at a starbase or planet.  And make weapons cease to function if they were reduced to red.  Its too hard to disable ships now as it is, and if you knock out an annoying weapon system, the enemy can have it back online before you can get their second one offline completely.

Four: add the Warp Nacelles as targets, if they are dropped into the yellow a ship can no longer engage warp until the nacelle is brought back online.  Think of it as a permanent Tachyon pulse if the Nacelle is put into black.  

[Mike H]

Although I haven't played SFC3 in awhile.... As a Rom, I usually don't bother with the fast firing disruptors.  My battles are won or lost with the plasma.  I usually don't plan on staying uncloaked long enough to where the fast-fire disruptors are all that useful.  I'll take the lower mass and cost.

On Klingon ships I find the fast-fire a much better option, as I don't go into cloak nearly as much.

MTH

[The_Pelican]

I'll explain a use for the Standard Fire, they are useful for ships that have low defences, but have a cloaking device - a Rom ship for example. They deliver more damage in a single blow, when flying Rom, you generally wait, cloaked, for your Plasma's to charge before you move in to attack, having Fast charging weapons is pointless, as they deliver less damage, and you're not going to be using them for 3 turns, plenty of time for them to charge.

In simple terms, they are good for players who want to Alpha Strike, retreat/hide, then Alpha Strike again.

Fast Firing primaries are good for those who like to go toe-to-toe.

[Magnum357]

True, but I don't use my Roms like that.  I hardly ever use Plasmas on my ships and rely on disruptor fire against the enemy.  I usually use beam weapons at ideally medium range, you usually have to get extremely close to be effective with the Plasma.  Lots of Roms like to use the cloak for sudden attack then hide quickly.  Although I can do that too, but I usually design my Roms so that they can survive a fire fight with lots of speed and maneuverability.  So often, I have to engage the enemy in more time and that makes the Fast Firing Weapons have an advantage.

I would think the Roms would like more powerful Standard Primaries the most.  Who knows, might actually make the Roms a little more potent in SFC3.