Topic: Two serious 2.5.4.12 Bugs

[TarMinyatur]

Unfortunately, the PF and Fighter firing restrictions/enhancements have been disabled.

1. G-PF's can fire 4 Plas-F in roughly 8 seconds. These suckers are very strong when they can launch 80 point volleys this quickly. There used to be a 1 turn delay between firing torps from the same hardpoint. This restriction kept them in line with their historical designs. PF's also don't get launched semi-hot any more. One heavy weapon per hardpoint used to start at 75% done for Disruptors and 92% done for Plasma (i.e. both were quarter turn from completion).  In 2.5.4.12 they have to fully charge a Disruptor (1 turn) or a Plasma (3 turns) from scratch.

2. Fighters can fire both shots from a DisF and HellF without cycling for 1/2 turn and 1 turn between shots, respectively. There is also no quarter turn post-launch firing delay enforced. Any delay is usually simply caused by the fighter pointing in the wrong direction. In other words, these units are launched hot! Except for the poor Fusion-armed fighters, that is. They are just about useless again with their 30 second arming times. Missiles now have only about a quarter turn delay between firings. It used to be a full turn.

Since these aren't CTD bugs they aren't likely to get fixed. However, I think the players should know about these features.

[SPQR Renegade001]

Quote:
 PF's also don't get launched semi-hot any more. One heavy weapon per hardpoint used to start at 75% done for Disruptors and 92% done for Plasma (i.e. both were quarter turn from completion).  In 2.5.4.12 they have to fully charge a Disruptor (1 turn) or a Plasma (3 turns) from scratch.

I just tried with R-Cen+s, and they were good to go. At launch, 2 tubes were nearly ready, 3 were dead empty.

[Rod O'neal]

Hi Tar,
Did you test this in 2.5.4.10? Is this the "improved" AI that we were told about?

[Cleaven]

G-PF+ seem to behave as expected. They can fire one F from each hardpoint shortly after launch, and have to wait for the 2nd F in each hardpoint to load.
Rom's already commented on.
L-PF's have to charge disrupters normally.

Fighters will fire off both volleys of photons pretty quick too, but I don't know if this is good or bad for the fighter jockeys.    

[TarMinyatur]

It's interesting that others cannot reproduce this. I patched 2.5.4.10 to 2.5.4.12. Did you patch from 2.5.0.0? I'll reinstall and try again with the two-step patch.  

[FireSoul]

How you patch it shouldn't matter, as you end up with the same .EXE (and all other files).  

[SPQR Renegade001]

Quote:
It's interesting that others cannot reproduce this. I patched 2.5.4.10 to 2.5.4.12. Did you patch from 2.5.0.0? I'll reinstall and try again with the two-step patch.  

I did the same. 2.5 -> 2.5.4.10 -> 2.5.4.12.  

[TarMinyatur]

My earlier report had some errors.

2.5.4.10 and 2.5.4.12 are behaving the same.

PF Plasma are pre-charged to 92% as they should be upon launch. Good.
PF Disruptors are not pre-charged to 75% upon launch. They start at 0%. Bad.

PF firing delay between Plasma Launches is about 11 seconds per hardpoint (game speed 8). I think it was 1 full turn before.

Fighters are ignoring the readme's post-launch firing delays for PhoF, DisF, and HellF. Any delay is usually caused by being pointed in the wrong direction or being out of range. Go ahead and test DisF-armed fighters. You'll see what I mean. Launch them at range 0 and they unload their DisF's immediately.

Fighters are also ignoring the readme's recycle times between firing a second shot or missile from a DisF, HellF, PhoF, DroI, and DroVI. The delay is supposed to be 1/2 turn for DisF and 1 turn for all others. The actual delay is about 1/8 turn for the direct-fire weapons and 1/2 turn for the missiles.

The FusF-armed fighters are indeed back in the dark ages. They cannot fire their FusF until 30 seconds after launch.

 

[Lepton1]

Not to state the obvious but it seems a bit silly that fighters dont launch with weapons fully charged.  I assume this stuff is hard-coded for some reason.  If not, might a power increase on fighters help this situation if that is possible to do.

[Corbomite]

Quote:
Not to state the obvious but it seems a bit silly that fighters dont launch with weapons fully charged.  I assume this stuff is hard-coded for some reason.  If not, might a power increase on fighters help this situation if that is possible to do.  

Fighters do come out fully charged. It's just supposed to take them 1/4 turn to align their sensors and lock on to the target. If the Fusion armed fighters are stuck with a 30 second delay and others fire imediately it's not good.  

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:
Not to state the obvious but it seems a bit silly that fighters dont launch with weapons fully charged.  I assume this stuff is hard-coded for some reason.  If not, might a power increase on fighters help this situation if that is possible to do.  

Imagine an F-14 Tomcat firing its missiles from the deck of an aircraft carrier. I suppose it can physically do that but no Captain is going to allow it. The Fighter has to gain some distance from the carrier before it can fire its weapons.

A reason SFC fighters have a post-launch firing delay might be to give the opponent an opportunity to manually click on the squadron, select a weapon group, and fire at it before it redocks and disappears. If you're quick enough, you can limit your fighters' vulnerability to just a few seconds. In a way, they become defacto hardpoints on your ship. That's easier said than done, I know.

[AH_Tze]

"Imagine an F-14 Tomcat firing its missiles from the deck of an aircraft carrier"

Totally unrelated to the point of the post, but I don't think that possible. When AA missiles disengage, there is a delay between the time it's dropped and ignition, so it won't rip the hardpoint off. It would take less than a half a second of free-fall for it to hit  the deck, at which point it starts looking like a fireworks show gone wrong.

But who knows. Judging from Starfleets love of disposable redshirts, I wouldn't be suprised if they train kamikaze fighter jocks. It's good to be in the federation    

[762]

That really sucks hard about the fusions. It's too bad, it was nice to have an alternative to carrying Hornets all the time.

[Corbomite]

Quote:
That really sucks hard about the fusions. It's too bad, it was nice to have an alternative to carrying Hornets all the time.  

Actually, now that Defend Me works right they are doable, albeit more attention demanding than the "drop and let them do their thing" tactics that Hornets and Yellow Jackets enjoy. Just launch Wasps early and keep them close until you need them.

[The_Infiltrator]

Why bother. As it stands now, fusion fighters come out 7 years after hellbore ones, have less armament, and now have a bug that drastically reduces their effectiveness. Load up with hellbores and make them pay, since the comedy of errors against what should be the hydran's true fighter continues.

[Rod O'neal]

I don't think that fusion fighters taking 30secs (approx. 1 turn?) to arm is a real big prob. It's quite a long time, and it would be a lot better if it were faster though, especially in fleet actions where it's harder to launch/relaunch at a safe distance. The other directfire ftrs firing instantly after launch, to me, is a big problem. I imagine people using them as "range zero, directfire scatterpacks". Especially if you have ftr launch hotkeyed.  This could be a major exploit. Or am I missreading something here.  

[762]

Quote:
I don't think that fusion fighters taking 30secs (approx. 1 turn?) to arm is a real big prob.

You clearly have never used fighters in PvP.

[TarMinyatur]

Though 762's post is a bit harsh, I do understand his point.

30-second arming Wasps are like 30-second arming scatterpacks. There usefulness comes from their shock effect.

As in, "Holy ****, I've got a boatload of potential fusion damage to deal with right now!", when a Lord Commander drops its Wasps on your nose. As it is now, I have a whole turn to dispatch them, so I don't really worry about them at all. The Hydran will clearly opt for rapid-firing Hornets instead. Unfortunately, the Wasps have been made obsolete with the 4.12 patch, in my opinion.

[Lepton1]

I am going to try out these fusion fighters for myself, but can't you just launch them earlier??  If it takes 30 seconds, account for that.   Off the top of my head I would say launch fighters at a good distance from your target in defend me mode which should keep them close to the ship.  Ride in with them for 30 seconds and by the time you reach your target, they are ready to go.

[Cleaven]

The tactics of fighters (and PFs) can be devestating if you are being pursued closely and can launch them right after the enemy has hit you with all his phasers and he overruns them himself just as they come on line with main weapons. I have been having fun with photon and gatling armed fighters doing this. You lose some to PD but the survivors really can hurt.