Topic: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0  (Read 102784 times)

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TarMinyatur

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #540 on: September 07, 2003, 06:22:12 pm »
Your logic is reasonable. People just don't want to give up advantages for their favorite ships/race. They don't look at the bigger picture.

Why should an I-CVL get 100% SFB fighter supply(9) while a comparable CVL from another race gets just 2/3rds?

I've heard the argument that the ISC need bigger squadrons because their fighters don't have Plas-F/D. However, look at the stats that Taldren gave them! I'd trade Plas-D for multiple Ph-2's and Ph-G's anyday.

FS, you can't please everyone. Keep up the good work!  

FireSoul

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #541 on: September 07, 2003, 11:47:37 pm »
Quote:

Your logic is reasonable. People just don't want to give up advantages for their favorite ships/race. They don't look at the bigger picture.

Why should an I-CVL get 100% SFB fighter supply(9) while a comparable CVL from another race gets just 2/3rds?

I've heard the argument that the ISC need bigger squadrons because their fighters don't have Plas-F/D. However, look at the stats that Taldren gave them! I'd trade Plas-D for multiple Ph-2's and Ph-G's anyday.

FS, you can't please everyone. Keep up the good work!  





I know. Thanks Tar.

Corbomite

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #542 on: September 08, 2003, 12:04:45 am »
I don't give a rats ass about the CLV's. The CV's are what I'm concerened about. They need their 12 fighters and the CVD/Z is not a replacement for them.  

Rob Cole

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #543 on: September 08, 2003, 12:18:32 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

With the introduction of I-CVF and I-CSF (which have 12 fighters, 8 in SFC), which have the 2/3rds fighters rule, the I-CVL, CVLZ, CVLP, CVLS will be corrected to 6 in SFC. They will recieve the appropriate BPV adjustment.
If that wasn't done, the above ships are Sooooo similar, it's stupid.

Also, With the introduction of the I-CVD, the I-CV (and refit variants) will also be corrected back down to OP+ standards. (12 -> 8).


To the ISC who are trying to protect their greener grass:
I am being impartial. Your fighters are NOT inferior to other races'. Also, these changes make utter sence since GSA will mostly remain untouched, while D2 play will be more balanced, especially in the area of technology breakthroughs.

-- Luc


 





Well if they are soooo similar why include them to replace ships we already have and already like? Why don't you adjust your additions to less fighters instead? No offence FS, but this project started as a means to add SFB ships to the shiplist by "Taldrenizing" them. Now you are making wholesale changes to the Taldren ships that were supposed to be your guide for the new ships. When I first talked to you, you said you weren't going to change Taldren ships, just add more from SFB. What gives?  




I would like to know this too, because I am concerned about these changes.
 





Ok. My added ships already have the proper proportion reduction. The Taldren ships, however, do not.
If I was to do it in THEIR way, the CVD(Z) would have 24 fighters or so.  The I-CVF and CSF would have 12. Nuts.

Hence why I want to change the Taldren ships.  





What a load of bullp00p!.
That CVD has no heavy weapons,HOW in the hell do you call is a replacement for the CV class??

Please send me some of what yer smokin!

Fine if you want to reduce the fighter levels do it across the board for all races.
Or find a way to put the heavey weps back on our fighters.

FS if you do this it will drive away all the ISC carrier pilots,I see how you say you are being fair(rollseyes).

FireSoul

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #544 on: September 08, 2003, 12:34:29 am »
Guys,
I can't make everyone happy... but at least I am making myself happy.

-- Luc

FireSoul

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #545 on: September 08, 2003, 12:39:20 am »
Quote:


What a load of bullp00p!.
That CVD has no heavy weapons,HOW in the hell do you call is a replacement for the CV class??

Please send me some of what yer smokin!

Fine if you want to reduce the fighter levels do it across the board for all races.
Or find a way to put the heavey weps back on our fighters.

FS if you do this it will drive away all the ISC carrier pilots,I see how you say you are being fair(rollseyes).  





The CVD is supposed to be a ship of the same size as the CV, but with a LOT more fighters. (24 SFB)

1- .. *ALL* SFB CVs have 16 fighters! Why should the ISC keep its 16-fighter CV in SFC while the others have been reduced to 12? The ISC fighters are not inferior.
2- The CVD is not a replacement, it's an enlargement... and I'm not giving it 24 in SFC.


-> I am tired of telling ISC pilots this. <-

-- Luc

Rob Cole

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #546 on: September 08, 2003, 01:49:56 am »
You are missing the whole point.
If you strip fighters off them carriers,it will lessen thier firepower.
And hence why bother to even fly them.

You wont see me playing on any server using such a shiplist.

Rob Cole

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #547 on: September 08, 2003, 01:52:40 am »
CVD Has no heavy weapons.

Oh sure Its larger then the non DN carriers,but big deal.fighters die and you are dead.

Rob Cole

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #548 on: September 08, 2003, 01:55:21 am »
And I still want some of what you are smoking.

Julin Eurthyr

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #549 on: September 08, 2003, 09:39:37 am »
Taldren made their dictates.  They are not fair to all.

Taldren could not accurately portray Offensive Pl-D, which probably would have been the only Plasma-race heavy fighter weapon.  As they are basically 50% strength Pl-Fs...

As such, Taldren gave us lovely phaser-only fighters.  In a perfect world, these fighters would need to close to range 0 in order to deliver an accurate strike.  The best ISC fighter, the Caveat III, carries 2xPh-G & 1-Ph2 FH, Ph-G RX.  These fighters, when they fire @ range 4 (outside effective AMD range) average (assuming either LF or RF shot where all the phasers come to bear) 4.8 damage per fighter, with a max of 15 (assuming all 1s and 2s on the Gats, and a 1 for the Ph-2).
Admittedly, these fighters are evil in close, maximum damage of 54 per fighter at range 0.  How many Fed / Klink / Mirak fighters, on average, get into range 0, strike, and survive the retreat?

Knowing fighter survivability rates, Taldren intentionally gave the ISC more fighters.  It was said so many moons ago.

You seek as close as possible of a SFB translation to SFC as possible in your shiplist.  You also claim to keep the Taldren way of doing things.  I repeat.  Taldren decreed the ISC is due a higher fighter ratio per carrier than everyone else as ISC fighters have no heavy weapons.  They intentionally ignored their 2/3rd fighter rule as we have no heavy weapons.

Your work is excellent.  I enjoy your project, and thank you heartily for the time invested.  I just question this one decision of yours.  In my opinion, by dropping the ISC fighter ratios to the same as everyone elses, you violate your decision of "as close to Taldren's original as possible".  

My opinions:
Gamespy pays for these fighters at their declared BPV.  D2 pays to carry them, though they are not figured into the force calculations.  SP, people can do what they want anyway.  By keeping the Original Taldren ISC fighter ratios, which does mean more fighters on the newer carriers, players can restrict themselves to smaller fighter counts themselves, if they wish to.  By forcing this reduction down the chain, it prevents the freedom of choice allocated all players since this game came out.
I also admit that fighter adjustments due to other concerns (such as fighter ECM) may be in order.  However, as they apply to everyone's fighters, these adjustments should be considered and applied globally.  Even if it's a +X BPV per Phaser carried and our fighters shoot up 3-6 BPV each cause they carry so many phasers.

I know it's player tendency to look out for their race.  I look at it because people who play one race usually are familiar with both their strengths and weaknesses.  As for the ISC, we were understandably upset when we first had to pay for, then lost, (in EAW) one of our SFC advantages in the I-torps.  We complained when the change came down, adjusted, and lived with it.  I feel many pilots were ready to live with the change to proper SFB limits in OP if it wasn't for the bugs that came with that change.  So we live with the higher BPV and price.  ISC fighter ratios are balanced by their replacement costs and survivability.  Tort III fighters carry 2 Ph-2s each, and 16 of them are about as effective as carrying a 4-pack of K-G2s that can be killed by AMD.  And it costs us about as much for 16 Torts as a K-G2.  The Caveat IIIs are just as bad for us.  We're paying for fighters that work effectively like Pl-R drones.  If a fighter closes to range 0 and unloads everything, it does about as much damage as a Pl-R.  And after AMD, phasers, T-bombs etc, they live just about as long as a drone.  One pass.  And I think it costs us more for a full pack of Caveats than it does a Mirak to load up with all fast drones.

FireSoul

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #550 on: September 08, 2003, 09:46:20 am »
Good post Julin..

.. however this campaign hasn't convinced me that ISC fighters with so many gatlings are inferior. Suggestions?

jimmi7769

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #551 on: September 08, 2003, 09:48:05 am »
A mistake is still a mistake whatever you want to call it.  And if it removes some of the carriers from the battlefield then all the better.

I always thought the ISC were a good all around race and not a carrier race only.

Why should the other carriers be reduced along with the errant ISC carriers.  How about we raise the other carriers to match the ISC loadouts??  Would that be better???

As for the lack of heavy weapons on ISC fighters, lets take look at the other races  so called heavy weapons on fighters.  Disrupters and photons and fusions range of about 4 with very little damage hellbore and missiles are the only things close to being effective but they both have reduced damage 4 for the big fighter drone 2 for the little one and I think the fighter hellbore does half normal damage.  

Do the ISC fighters use low powered weapons??  Nope, standard phasers and lots of them which also means they don't use ammo.

This has become tiresome.......

Corbomite

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #552 on: September 08, 2003, 10:25:21 am »
It's not a mistake,Taldren designed it that way. This isn't SFB. Not everything transfers over correctly. This has been said a billion times since this game came out. Julin just told you again. You want a suggestion? Put four more power on the BCV and you won't hear a peep out of anyone. You really think the I-BCV is a match for that L-BCHT you all are flying? If so why is NOBODY flying it? The reason we a re arguing so hard is that The CV class is our BCV. Taldren didn't include one and we'd rather have the CV's than that dog BCV. You beat Bearslayers dred with a BCHT because of another game design some could call a mistake, that being that fighters ignore orders and go after the PF's even when you target the mother ship! You seem to like using that little "mistake" to your advantage plenty.

Oh and fighter missiles do 4 and 8 points each. They are hardly worthless. All races Heavy Fighters are mean. I've had success with all of them. I have also fought pilots who knew how to kill them before they could do anything to them.

Rob Cole

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #553 on: September 08, 2003, 10:29:20 am »
Mace,

Our fighters tend to go to range 3 to range0.

Hence we lose a bunch of them in ship explosions.

I have lost all 16 before on the CVAZ when a BCH blew.

Beside this is starting to look like a"I cant beat them so lets nerf them thread"

The next thing you will say is that the Miraks have to many drones

FireSoul

  • Guest
Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #554 on: September 08, 2003, 10:29:36 am »
Quote:

It's not a mistake,Taldren designed it that way. This isn't SFB. Not everything transfers over correctly. This has been said a billion times since this game came out. Julin just told you again. You want a suggestion? Put four more power on the BCV and you won't hear a peep out of anyone. You really think the I-BCV is a match for that L-BCHT you all are flying? If so why is NOBODY flying it? The reason we a re arguing so hard is that The CV class is our BCV. Taldren didn't include one and we'd rather have the CV's than that dog BCV. You beat Bearslayers dred with a BCHT because of another game design some could call a mistake, that being that fighters ignore orders and go after the PF's even when you target the mother ship! You seem to like using that little "mistake" to your advantage plenty.

Oh and fighter missiles do 4 and 8 points each. They are hardly worthless. All races Heavy Fighters are mean. I've had success with all of them. I have also fought pilots who knew how to kill them before they could do anything to them.  





Ok. Say I was to add 4 APRs. Tell me which *continuous* 4 boxes to remove? (of same type) That shuttlebay is mighty huge for a variant of a CC. Have it make sense.. something that takes hullspace..

-- Luc

edit:continuous.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 10:31:13 am by FireSoul »

Corbomite

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #555 on: September 08, 2003, 10:39:21 am »
Quote:

Quote:

It's not a mistake,Taldren designed it that way. This isn't SFB. Not everything transfers over correctly. This has been said a billion times since this game came out. Julin just told you again. You want a suggestion? Put four more power on the BCV and you won't hear a peep out of anyone. You really think the I-BCV is a match for that L-BCHT you all are flying? If so why is NOBODY flying it? The reason we a re arguing so hard is that The CV class is our BCV. Taldren didn't include one and we'd rather have the CV's than that dog BCV. You beat Bearslayers dred with a BCHT because of another game design some could call a mistake, that being that fighters ignore orders and go after the PF's even when you target the mother ship! You seem to like using that little "mistake" to your advantage plenty.

Oh and fighter missiles do 4 and 8 points each. They are hardly worthless. All races Heavy Fighters are mean. I've had success with all of them. I have also fought pilots who knew how to kill them before they could do anything to them.  





Ok. Say I was to add 4 APRs. Tell me which *continuous* 4 boxes to remove? (of same type) That shuttlebay is mighty huge for a variant of a CC. Have it make sense.. something that takes hullspace..

-- Luc

edit:continuous.





Look just answer me this - What did the other races BCH's lose to place 8 fighters (2/4 PF's) on them? It surely wasn't power. I would happily lose 4 shuttles and consign the BCV to 2 shuts max instead of losing power.


OK, correct that - The BCV already lost 2 max shuttles. Well I don't know about the other players, but I would be willing to loose two more max shuttles and two fighters (that makes two max shuttles and six fighters). That four points of power is really that imporatnt on that ship. Four more hull is also an option, but that wouldn't be my choice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Corbomite »

Rod O'neal

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #556 on: September 08, 2003, 11:08:39 am »
This might or might not be a viable alternative/compromise, but I'll throw it out there. would increasing the damage for ISC fighters work? This would make the squadrons more survivable but not add more firepower. Seems like most of the complaints revolve around losing the ftrs too fast.

There is a precedent for this in SFB, if you need one. ISC ships run about 20% larger per size class than the rest of the races. maybe in SFC it needs to be carried over to the ftrs as well?  

FireSoul

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #557 on: September 08, 2003, 11:11:31 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It's not a mistake,Taldren designed it that way. This isn't SFB. Not everything transfers over correctly. This has been said a billion times since this game came out. Julin just told you again. You want a suggestion? Put four more power on the BCV and you won't hear a peep out of anyone. You really think the I-BCV is a match for that L-BCHT you all are flying? If so why is NOBODY flying it? The reason we a re arguing so hard is that The CV class is our BCV. Taldren didn't include one and we'd rather have the CV's than that dog BCV. You beat Bearslayers dred with a BCHT because of another game design some could call a mistake, that being that fighters ignore orders and go after the PF's even when you target the mother ship! You seem to like using that little "mistake" to your advantage plenty.

Oh and fighter missiles do 4 and 8 points each. They are hardly worthless. All races Heavy Fighters are mean. I've had success with all of them. I have also fought pilots who knew how to kill them before they could do anything to them.  





Ok. Say I was to add 4 APRs. Tell me which *continuous* 4 boxes to remove? (of same type) That shuttlebay is mighty huge for a variant of a CC. Have it make sense.. something that takes hullspace..

-- Luc

edit:continuous.





Look just answer me this - What did the other races BCH's lose to place 8 fighters (4 PF's) on them? It surely wasn't power. I would happily lose 4 shuttles and consign the BCV to 2 shuts max instead of losing power.  




PF Tenders require 4-8 repair boxes for the PFs as well as the necessary mechlinks. The Lyran's BCH was designed with repairs as the default config and would come with PFs as standard.


No can do. 2 of the old shuttlebays themselves have been converted to fighterbays. The APRs have been removed to move the batteries from the centerhull to the right side of the ship. The 6 additional fighterbays were additions to the ship. I guess the designer prefered to keep the batteries (which are very important in SFB) over the APR.

A *similar*-to-SFB conversion would be to replace 2 batteries with fighterbays, convert *4* shuttlebays to fighterbays, and  add the oither 6 fighterbays like in the SFB I-BCV above. This ship would have *2* batteries and *2* shuttles. Be careful.
I call it the CCV. How'd that sound to you?

--
I agree that this is a special case, where SFC conversion needed some balance to compete with other BCHs. Would this solve the whole carrier issue ISCs seem to be having in order to compete with BCHs?

To Miraks: The MIRV loadouts would be your balance enhancement.





 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 11:13:10 am by FireSoul »

jimmi7769

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #558 on: September 08, 2003, 11:20:25 am »
Quote:

Mace,

Our fighters tend to go to range 3 to range0.

Hence we lose a bunch of them in ship explosions.

I have lost all 16 before on the CVAZ when a BCH blew.

Beside this is starting to look like a"I cant beat them so lets nerf them thread"

The next thing you will say is that the Miraks have to many drones  




Man, I see what you mean.  thats too bad about your cav III's dying at range 0 from an exploding ship, we don't have that problem with Lancer III's.  Of course thats because the ships don't explode from range 0 Lancer III's.    

But you know what, it just doesn't matter.  He's gonna change it cause it's his baby.  That's not to say it'll stay that way on the server.  I'm sure you'll have your standard CV's as thats what you ISC regulars like to fly most.  And it's good to see a bunch of guys flying ISC on the server, heck it's good to see a bunch of people on the server period.

Oh, and I never said I couldn't beat them.

FireSoul

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Re: OP+ Corrections Thread: as of version 3.0
« Reply #559 on: September 08, 2003, 11:21:07 am »
Quote:

This might or might not be a viable alternative/compromise, but I'll throw it out there. would increasing the damage for ISC fighters work? This would make the squadrons more survivable but not add more firepower. Seems like most of the complaints revolve around losing the ftrs too fast.

There is a precedent for this in SFB, if you need one. ISC ships run about 20% larger per size class than the rest of the races. maybe in SFC it needs to be carried over to the ftrs as well?    




Not bad. Not bad at all.

Usually:
Patrol:  11, 12, 12
Heavy: 12, 14, 15
Interceptor: 10, 12 ,12

I'm thinking:
12, 13, 13
13, 15, 16
11, 13, 13


In other words: 10-13: +1   14,15: +2
In a group of 4, that would make a heck of a difference. (1 pt can make a heck of a difference, because if the fighter only needs 1 point to kill, a player may waste a full ph1 just for 1 fighter kill)

Note: I would also increase the BPV of all fighters by 1, except the basic fighter.
Exception: I would leave the basic Restitution.I as is, as to not unbalance BPV on ships. (2 BPV per fighter. Fighter is identical to all races')