Topic: Info on 2.5.4.12 cloak vs direct-fire weapons

[FireSoul]

Quote:
My earlier post about the tractor/cloak interaction was in error.

The +5 range adjustment does not apply to the tractoring ship, thus damage is based on true range!
This damage must pass through the Combat vs Cloak chart.
Seeking weapons can be fired (and will not lose lock-on) but the Combat vs Cloak chart applies to them.

Getting tractored is still a bad situation for cloakers in 2.5.4.12, though it is better than 2.036. I think that the +5 adjustment should be used but it isn't, primarily to the benefit of Fusions, Gatlings, and Ph-2's, while OL Hellbores and Disruptors can do 30 and 10 points respectively if the tractor engages at less than range 2.

It is interesting that getting flash-cubed (but not tractored) provides a different defense. In this case, the +5 range adjustment does apply but the Combat vs Cloak chart doesn't. I need to test this more but I've yet to see a weapon do less than maximum(based on effective range) during a flash-cube.
 

It's working properly, you mean.

1- G13.43: A cloaked ship loses the G13.302 range benifit if it is held in a tractor beam, in regard to that specific firing ship.
G13.302, paraphrased: Add 5 to range if lockon is lost.
2- Damage reduction (G13.37) still applies, even while tractored.  

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:
Can some brave souls confirm the lockon data given above? I'd hate it if people accepted my words at face value, when I myself haven't tested it fully. The above is what I *understand* it to be.

This data does not seem to agree with what actually happens.

The cloak appears to always break lock-ons to enemy ships. I can fly at speed 31 with an opponent on my heels, activate the cloak, and break the lock-on everytime. The retention number is a whopping 9. Success is guaranteed even if the d6 roll is random, rather than a static 2.

Seeking weapons appear to get a chance to retain lock-on, but it isn't as easy as the examples make it, in which the unit attempting to retain lock-on will only fail if the cumulative sum is 1 or less.

Hypothetical situation:
Enemy fires slow missiles at a WarEagle from range 8. WarEagle cloaks and moves at speed 6 with no ECM. The missiles are at range 6 when the cloak is fully active. Retain number is 2-1+1=2. The missiles should never lose lock-on. The situation only gets better the closer the missiles get (3 at range 1-4, and 4 at range 0). I'll bet that every missile loses lock-on.

Here's an experiment I just did:
Cloaked target moved at speed 2. It chased me in a Z-MDC at about range 2.5. Predictably it would uncloak, fire the Plas-G, and recloak. I would wait until the fade-in was just about complete and fire the 7 slow Type-I missiles. The missiles appeared to undergo two survival checks before they reached the  target. There was no ECM/ECCM.

P=6-EW-RF+SF-4

which is

P=2-0-0+0-4=2

This means that every missile should hit if the retention d6 returns a 2 everytime.

Approximately 1 in 7 missiles would manage to hit the target. I suspect that the d6 returns a value of 1-6, rather than a static 2. This explains the results pretty well. The Combat vs Cloak chart was applied to this damage.

I then launched a scatterpack. It appears that scatters are immune to lock-on checks. They do not seem to lose lock-on however, the missiles that they launch do require a lock-on check. Hopefully, for the target, the SP doesn't bloom at range zero.

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:

It's working properly, you mean.

1- G13.43: A cloaked ship loses the G13.302 range benifit if it is held in a tractor beam, in regard to that specific firing ship.
G13.302, paraphrased: Add 5 to range if lockon is lost.
2- Damage reduction (G13.37) still applies, even while tractored.  

Thanks for clarifying that.  

It makes sense that a tractor link would make the target rather easy to target. So cloakers better use their WW's carefully and try to get the enemy to waste T-bombs.

[Strafer]

Not sure on this but would EM prevent tractor grab?..

[TarMinyatur]

EM provides no defense against tractor grabs. However, the tractor does not negate the ECM provided by Erratics.  Of course, a ship trying to tractor something will fail if it is using EM itself.

As FireSoul pointed out, cloaked ships don't get ECM from Erratics, it's just a waste of energy. So there's no reason to use EM while cloaked, except during the phase-in or phase-out stage.

[FireSoul]

Now you see it: WW's are *VERY* precious to cloaked ships, even when there are no seeking weapons in play.

[Mr. Hypergol]

O.K. I'm trying to wrap my brain around these discussions so I can make a list of things to remember in combat.  Could someone provide a summary of these discussions.  Here's what I know so far:

1)  Direct fire weapons have a hard time punching through a cloak with any effectiveness even at range 0.

2)  Overloaded heavy weapons are pointless because to be effective you have to fire them at range 0 which in some cases causes feedback damage to the attacker sometimes rivaling the damage inflicted on the target.

3)  Seeking weapons almost always lose lockon when a target ship cloaks.  Lock-on is effected by the speed of both ships, true range, and ECM/ECCM.  If seeking weapons do hit, their damage is reduced by the cloak vs combat chart.

4)  Erratic Maneuvers do not help a cloaked ship.  EM just sucks power.

5)  ECM does help a cloaked ship.  ECCM will help the attacker.

6)  Wild weasels CAN be launched while cloaked.  Along with attracting seeking weapons, WW's provide an extra ECM benefit in addition to the cloak effect and the ECM generated by the cloaked ship.

7)  Mines CAN be launched while cloaked to stop missles or deter the attackers pursuit.

8)  If a cloaked ship is flashed and tractored, The +5 range adjustment does not apply to the tractoring ship, thus damage is based on true range!  This damage must pass through the Combat vs Cloak chart.  Seeking weapons can be fired (and will not lose lock-on) but the Combat vs Cloak chart applies to them.

9)  Getting flash-cubed but not tractored provides a different defense. In this case, the +5 range adjustment does apply but the Combat vs Cloak chart doesn't.

Anything else?    

[Maxillius]

One more thing, phaser G's are useless againt cloaked ships.  At range 0, 16 Caveat III's Didn't even scratch the paint of my FHK in single player.  However, I was instantly gutted when I decloaked.

[Mr. Hypergol]

A few more questions:

1)  How is the PPD effected by cloak?  Does the range 3 or less myopic zone effectively mean that an overloaded PPD can only fire at a cloaked ship while "exactly" at range 8 (i.e. range 3+5=8)?  Does the overloaded PPD stop firing on a cloaked ship beyond range 3?

2)  When a cloaked ship is tractored, is it only the tractoring ship that ignores the +5 range adjustment?  How does the cloak effect the ships allied to the tractoring ship?  


EDIT:  HEY I"M A CAPTAIN NOW!!!!!

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:

2)  Overloaded heavy weapons are pointless because to be effective you have to fire them at range 0 which in some cases causes feedback damage to the attacker sometimes rivaling the damage inflicted on the target.
 

Not quite. OL Disruptors and Hellbores can be fired at range 1.0 to 1.9 and do up to 6 and 19 damage, respectively, with no feedback. OL Photons are not as fortunate. Firing from range 2.0 to avoid feedback will cause them to miss since the effective range is 9.

I wouldn't call 6, 19, and 16 damage "pointless" which will occur 33% of the time for these threee OL weapons.  Doing 3, 9, and 8 isn't too bad either which occurs another 33% of the time. The last 33% can be a slap in the face, since feedback can equal or exceed the damage dealt.