Topic: Info on 2.5.4.12 cloak vs direct-fire weapons

[FireSoul]

Now you see it: WW's are *VERY* precious to cloaked ships, even when there are no seeking weapons in play.

[Mr. Hypergol]

O.K. I'm trying to wrap my brain around these discussions so I can make a list of things to remember in combat.  Could someone provide a summary of these discussions.  Here's what I know so far:

1)  Direct fire weapons have a hard time punching through a cloak with any effectiveness even at range 0.

2)  Overloaded heavy weapons are pointless because to be effective you have to fire them at range 0 which in some cases causes feedback damage to the attacker sometimes rivaling the damage inflicted on the target.

3)  Seeking weapons almost always lose lockon when a target ship cloaks.  Lock-on is effected by the speed of both ships, true range, and ECM/ECCM.  If seeking weapons do hit, their damage is reduced by the cloak vs combat chart.

4)  Erratic Maneuvers do not help a cloaked ship.  EM just sucks power.

5)  ECM does help a cloaked ship.  ECCM will help the attacker.

6)  Wild weasels CAN be launched while cloaked.  Along with attracting seeking weapons, WW's provide an extra ECM benefit in addition to the cloak effect and the ECM generated by the cloaked ship.

7)  Mines CAN be launched while cloaked to stop missles or deter the attackers pursuit.

8)  If a cloaked ship is flashed and tractored, The +5 range adjustment does not apply to the tractoring ship, thus damage is based on true range!  This damage must pass through the Combat vs Cloak chart.  Seeking weapons can be fired (and will not lose lock-on) but the Combat vs Cloak chart applies to them.

9)  Getting flash-cubed but not tractored provides a different defense. In this case, the +5 range adjustment does apply but the Combat vs Cloak chart doesn't.

Anything else?    

[Maxillius]

One more thing, phaser G's are useless againt cloaked ships.  At range 0, 16 Caveat III's Didn't even scratch the paint of my FHK in single player.  However, I was instantly gutted when I decloaked.

[Mr. Hypergol]

A few more questions:

1)  How is the PPD effected by cloak?  Does the range 3 or less myopic zone effectively mean that an overloaded PPD can only fire at a cloaked ship while "exactly" at range 8 (i.e. range 3+5=8)?  Does the overloaded PPD stop firing on a cloaked ship beyond range 3?

2)  When a cloaked ship is tractored, is it only the tractoring ship that ignores the +5 range adjustment?  How does the cloak effect the ships allied to the tractoring ship?  


EDIT:  HEY I"M A CAPTAIN NOW!!!!!

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:

2)  Overloaded heavy weapons are pointless because to be effective you have to fire them at range 0 which in some cases causes feedback damage to the attacker sometimes rivaling the damage inflicted on the target.
 

Not quite. OL Disruptors and Hellbores can be fired at range 1.0 to 1.9 and do up to 6 and 19 damage, respectively, with no feedback. OL Photons are not as fortunate. Firing from range 2.0 to avoid feedback will cause them to miss since the effective range is 9.

I wouldn't call 6, 19, and 16 damage "pointless" which will occur 33% of the time for these threee OL weapons.  Doing 3, 9, and 8 isn't too bad either which occurs another 33% of the time. The last 33% can be a slap in the face, since feedback can equal or exceed the damage dealt.

[TarMinyatur]

Scenario 1:

Typical Range zero attack on cloaked War Eagle
"Effective range" is therefore 5 (calculated as (displayed range*2)  + 5)
No attack shift
Overloaded Disruptor

Hit% is based on the effective range of 5, which is 83% thanks to UIM.
Base damage is also based on the effective range of 5, which is 6.

This damage then passes through 2.5.4.12 cloak chart...

33% do 6 (full damage)
33% do 3  (half damage)
33% do 1 (quarter damage)

Yup, you can do more damage to yourself in feedback (2) than you do to the War Eagle (1).
Your average damage output with an OL Disruptor is 2.77 vs a cloaked target accounting for hit%.

---
Scenario 2:

Range 0 attack
Effective range is 5.
No attack shift
Overloaded Photon

Hit% is based on effective range of 5, which is 50%.
Base damage is based on effective range (moot point, photons are not attenuated, OL's do 16).

Damage then passes though cloak chart...

33% do 16
33% do 8
33% do 4

So you can do the same damage to yourself in feedback(4) as you do to the target(4).  Ouch.

Your average damage output with an OL Photon is 4.66 vs a cloaked target accounting for hit%.

---
Scenario 3:

Range 2.0 attack
Effective range is 9.0 (i.e. 2*2 + 5)
No attack shift
Overloaded Disruptor

Hit% is based on effective range of 9.0. However, there is no resolution for a Range 9 overloaded weapon. Therefore they always miss. This applies to Hellbores and Photons too. So you can't avoid OL Photon feedback (0 to 1.9) if you want to hit the target! Getting closer than range 1.9 for these weapons provides no bonus.
 
Phaser-1's should be fired at 0.49 or less to get the excellent range 5 column results. Firing at 0.5 to 1.9 is resolved on the weaker range 6-8 column. Ph-2's and 3's don't matter much vs cloak. They are resolved on the tepid 4-8 column in even the best situation. Phaser damage must then pass though the clloak chart.

---
Ph-1 @ Effective Range 5
Full, Half, Quarter
5, 2, 1
4, 2, 1
4, 2, 1
3, 2, 0
3, 1, 0
2, 1, 0

Average = 1.89

---
Ph-2 @ Effective Range 5
Full, Half, Quarter
3, 1, 0
2, 1, 0
1, 0, 0
1, 0, 0
0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0

Average = 0.5

---
Ph-3 @ Effective Range 5
Full, Half, Quarter
1, 0, 0
1, 0, 0
0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0

Average = 0.11

---

Fusion @ Effective range 5
Full, Half, Quarter
4, 2, 1
3, 1, 0
2, 1, 0
1, 0, 0
1, 0, 0
0, 0, 0

Average = 0.88

---
Overloaded Fusion @ Effective range 5
Full, Half, Quarter
6, 3, 1
4, 2, 1
3, 1, 0
1, 0, 0
1, 0, 0
0, 0, 0

Average = 1

---
If you allow the target to have an ECM advantage, then things are going to be very futile for you. A cloaked ship with 6 ECM and EM is going  to be very hard to hit (+2 shift) with anything. However, it takes a tremendous amount of energy to do all that, typically 32 for a CA! So the flash and tractor may be your best friend (and consequently, a Romulan's greatest concern).

The cloak is clearly a useful device rather than another self-destruct button, as some say  

[FireSoul]

There's additional information which I am sure would be appreciated. If I understand this correctly, retain lockon has been implemented for seeking weapons.

Tar, do you feel up to investigate that?

-- Luc

[Strafer]

Last I checked, EM under cloak did nothing but suck up power.

[TarMinyatur]

Hmm, EM did benefit cloaked ships back in 2.013 (yep a long time ago and on a different product---probably not the best foundation for a statement regarding OP Four Twelve).

 I'd be glad to check it out on GSA with one of you Canadians.

EDIT: Strafer and I observed no benefit to using EM while cloaked. That's good to see.

[Toasty0]

Tar,

Nice explanation of how the current implimentation of the cloak and anti-cloack tactics.

Kudos to you!

 

Best,
Jerry  

[Rod O'neal]

Well, people wanted an effective cloak. This is certainly that. Maybe a bit more effective than it's designed to be since you, basically, can't use OLs against it. That's OK to me though. I'm not complaining. I can see a lot more pirates purchasing cloaks for their vessels. The Feds aren't going to be the least bit happy with this though.    

[FireSoul]

You may have noticed that 25412 seeking weapons don't lose lockon like 25410 do. If you look in the 25412 readme, you'll see this:

Quote:

4) The speed of the cloaking ship is not being factored in when when trying to retaining a lock-on - fixed.

Here's an explanation of the SFB "Retain Lockon" rules. I hope these charts help.

First, the Formula:

Retain Threshhold = Sensor(6) - (EW Defense Shift) - (Range Factor) + (Speed Factor) - 4

Next, some explanations of the components of that formula:

Retain Threshhold: The number a the person trying to do a retain lock has to match or roll lower with a D6 (6-sided die). DavidF told the testers (I am one) that the dieroll would always be 2. (to make it a notch challenging to the cloaker, I guess)

EW Defense Shift: Cloaker's defense shift, after the ECM, ECCM and squareroot calculations. (the Defense shift at the bottom left of the screen)

Range Factor: A value decided on the range between the unit tracking and the cloaked ship.

Speed Factor: Speed of the cloaked ship.

Now for the tables to figure out the Factors:
Range Factor:

True Range  <=>  Range Factor
0 <=> -1
1-4 <=> 0
5-10 <=> 1
11-15 <=> 2
16-20 <=> 3
21-30 <=> 4
31-40 <=> 5
41+ <=> 6
 

Speed Adjustment Factor:

Maneuver Rate <=> Speed Factor
0 <=> -2
1-4 <=> 0
5-8 <=> 1
9-12 <=> 2
13-15 <=> 3
16-17 <=> 4
18 <=> 5
19+ <=> 6

And finally some examples:

1:

A Romulan ship cloaks with drones seeking after it. It's at range 8 from the enemy, and is going speed 7 when the cloak fully engages. There is no ECM shift.
The formula:  
Retain Threshhold = Sensor(6) - (EW Defense Shift) - (Range Factor) + (Speed Factor) - 4
= 6 - 0 - 1 + 1 - 4
= 2

The enemy retains lockon.

2:

A pirate cloaks. It's running only at speed 3, but is at range 2 from a plasma ship and its plasmas. The cloaker has an ECM shift of 1.

Retain Threshhold = Sensor(6) - (EW Defense Shift) - (Range Factor) + (Speed Factor) - 4
= 6 - 1 - 0 + 0 - 4
= 1

The pirate cloaks with success.

So as you can see, speed is very important for loss of lockon to occur.

Cloakers: If you *REALLY* want to lose the plasmas running after you, try doing an Emergency Deceleration at the same time as engaging cloak. By the time cloak fully engages, you're probably at speed 0 and will enjoy a Speed Factor of -2. ECM is also a major attribute to use/abuse by a cloaker.

Please note that even if weapons retained lockon, they will still wink out 1 by 1 in the pre-25410 patch manner. Also, the new G13.37 protection is indeed in effect against seeking weapons.

-- Luc  

[TarMinyatur]

Well, my warning about getting tractored while cloaked is somewhat alarmist. If you manage to get flashed and tractored you still benefit from the cloak chart and the +5 range adjustment. I suppose this is working as designed based on the readme.

"3) Being tractored will no longer prevent cloak from being brought on-line."

It also seems to mean that the cloak isn't automatically turned off, which is a good thing.

Unless your opponent has fast seeking weapons it doesn't make much difference if you get flashed and tractored. You probably weren't going anywhere fast at the time due to the power demands of the cloaking device.

This "new" cloak is pretty darn nifty.

[Rod O'neal]

This is also good to know. When fighting a cloaking opponent eccm can be a big help. Figure it in to the formula to see what I mean.

Does plasma get the 3pts of eccm in SFC that it does in SFB? This would also need to be figured in if it does.

[Lepton1]

So now essentially cloak is superior against direct fire and has lost its advantage againt seeking weapons in 2.4.5.10.  Ok, I guess if it's nearer to SFB I can live with it.

[Cleaven]

Firesoul, do you have any info on the calculations used when "if weapons retained lockon, they will still wink out 1 by 1 in the pre-25410 patch manner"?
Are there repeated lock-on checks, ie if conditions change or is something else going on every x number of impulses which involves a die roll?

Otherwise everything seems to make sense.

-----------------
"Buy new improved OP, with added nifty"
-----------------  

[FireSoul]

Quote:
Firesoul, do you have any info on the calculations used when "if weapons retained lockon, they will still wink out 1 by 1 in the pre-25410 patch manner"?
Are there repeated lock-on checks, ie if conditions change or is something else going on every x number of impulses which involves a die roll?

Otherwise every thing seems to make sense.

Only my observations.. sorry.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
This is also good to know. When fighting a cloaking opponent eccm can be a big help. Figure it in to the formula to see what I mean.

Does plasma get the 3pts of eccm in SFC that it does in SFB? This would also need to be figured in if it does.  

It'd have to be tested..

[FireSoul]

Can some brave souls confirm the lockon data given above? I'd hate it if people accepted my words at face value, when I myself haven't tested it fully. The above is what I *understand* it to be.

[TarMinyatur]

My earlier post about the tractor/cloak interaction was in error.

The +5 range adjustment does not apply to the tractoring ship, thus damage is based on true range!
This damage must pass through the Combat vs Cloak chart.
Seeking weapons can be fired (and will not lose lock-on) but the Combat vs Cloak chart applies to them.

Getting tractored is still a bad situation for cloakers in 2.5.4.12, though it is better than 2.036. I think that the +5 adjustment should be used but it isn't, primarily to the benefit of Fusions, Gatlings, and Ph-2's, while OL Hellbores and Disruptors can do 30 and 10 points respectively if the tractor engages at less than range 2.

It is interesting that getting flash-cubed (but not tractored) provides a different defense. In this case, the +5 range adjustment does apply but the Combat vs Cloak chart doesn't. I need to test this more but I've yet to see a weapon do less than maximum(based on effective range) during a flash-cube.