Topic: There is no such thing as a Constitution Class ship.. My proof is... (Read 13169 times)

Pestalence · « **on:** February 03, 2003, 06:02:50 am »

I've been doing some research on the Big E NCC-1701 and i have always believed the Refit version of her to be the "Enterprise Class"

due to recent discoveries on various web sites where 'Canon' and Semi-Canon sources state the Classification of the Big E, I have come to the following conclusion...

NCC-1701 U.S.S. Enterprise (Pre-refit) was not a Constitution Class ship.. As a matter of fact, there was no Constitution Class vessell ever built.. the Classification the the Enterprise and her sister ships is "Starship Class" as seen on the dedication plaque in the TOS episodes.. Constitution Class is the Fan based nickname for the hull design because the first in the line was the NCC-1700 Constitution, which was also a "Starship Class" starship.

NCC-1701 U.S.S. Enterprise (after refit) has been stated by the production designer of Star Trek : TMP and Star Trek II :TWOK that the Enterprise as he saw it in the making of the movies was the "Enterprise Class" starship. there are 2 book references to back this claim and the movie ST II : TWOK where the dedication plaque stating "Enterprise Class Starship" can be seen if you look closely enough. Also, Scotty in Star Trek : The motion Picture stated that the ENTIRE ship had to be rebuilt so that the new components could fit.. IE : They had to make her bigger so they could put the new system on her.

to back my claims, I'll post my findings below :

Quote:

The Starship class

It has now been generally accepted that the original Enterprise was a Constitution class starship. However, there are indications that during the original series classes were not identified by the first ship of that class, but rather described by their function. There would be cargo ships, scouts, destroyers, and starships, which were no doubt the front-line vessels. This is supported by various dialogue as well as the Enterprise's dedication plaque, which identifies it as Starship Class. As mentioned, however, the Constitution name has now been universally adopted. Different designs within a classification were unofficially identified by the first ship of that design. By the time of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the fleet had become so diversified that that system became outdated, and the unofficial system was adopted to make ship identification easier. Starship became a general term for any vessel of sufficient size. The only contradiction would be the Daedalus class, mentioned as an early Federation design in "Power Play" (TNG). In this case, it's possible the unofficial term was used since the classification the Daedalus was a part of already had a variety of designs

Quote:

A very extensive refit of the ship took place from 2269, when Kirk's five-year mission ended, to 2271 ("Star Trek I"). Although the overall appearance of the Enterprise remained roughly the same, an examination of the components reveals that there must have been very few left of the old ship. The question arises if it is justified at all to call it still the same ship.
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Note that all the following dimensions were measured on 1/1200 scale diagrams of the two ships from the Star Trek Fact Files, assuming an overall length of 289m for the original version and 305m for the refit.

Quote:

U.S.S. ENTERPRISE NCC-1701 REFIT
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Enterprise Class
In all of the "canon" reference material (Trek Encyclopedia, TNG Tech Manual), the movie Enterprise is listed simply as Constitution class. This name was briefly seen during Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and is based on the assumption that a starship stays part of its original class, no matter how many modifications and changes are made.
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Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and the books Ships of the Star Fleet and Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, on the other hand, give its class as Enterprise.
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I prefer to use this system simply because it causes less confusion and makes much more sense. Rather than haphazardly lumping all the varations on the TOS Enterprise together as Constitution class, some distinction can be made between the variants (which there are at least four). It doesn't make sense to me that Enterprise would still be considered Constitution class after its total refit, especially considering the two bear only basic structural similarities.
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Signage in Star Trek II also confirms the Enterprise designation, which implies that Enterprise was the original class name.
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Finally, here is an e-mail that I received from Mr. Andrew Probert, chief designer of the model Enterprise:
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"I always called it an "Enterprise class" because (even though the script indicates that it is the same ship being "refitted") it is a new ship with new capabilities. That usually means it is a new class which is named after the first ship built in that class."
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Since the ship's designer believes that it was the Enterprise class, I feel this and the precedents established override the Star Trek VI diagram, which was produced by a new production crew that was unaware of the Star Trek II reference.
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Reference Sources besides the Chief Designer :
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Ships of the Star Fleet
Originally published in 1987, then rereleased in 1991 and 1998, Ships by Todd Guenther is the definite bible to movie-era vessels, as laid out by the fan press. It covers the cruiser and frigate classifications from the era around Trek III/IV and is internally consistent for the most part (the most obvious contradictions are registry numbers for several ships, but this is in the second volume only). The Enterprise is covered in two sections: vessels upgraded around the same time as the original Enterprise comprised the original Enterprise class, and a newer Enterprise (II) class was in progress at the time of the manual's fictional publication (2290) and included the Enterprise 1701-A. Both sections have descriptive histories as well as technical specifications. The only major problem is the dates are very shifted; 2267 is mentioned as the date for events in ST:TMP and ST:III takes place in 2287 in comparision to the official dates of 2271 and 2285, respectively. The Enterprise (II) entry also gives these ships upgrades that would let them serve well into the 24th century, when they are suspiciously absent in the current Trek timeframe.
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Mr. Scott's Guide To The Enterprise
The only complete technical manual available on the movie era Enterprise. In many ways, it is an excellent publication, with several great diagrams and charts of the Enterprise and the sets seen throughout the first four films. However, the text itself has several contradictions in the current Trek world and is sorely outdated. The movie era is placed in the early 23rd century and the Enterprise-A has several features and technology mentioned but never seen in the movies. Some of these innovations seem advanced even for Picard's Enterprise-D of eighty years later.

These are just a few sources that i have found showing that the Constitution class itself never exhisted.. the TOS dedication Plaque proves that on it's own...

I will post the Enterprise Class Decication plaque as soon as I can get it scanned in.. that is if I can get my scanner working... I have it from a Snail mail fan group for Star Trek through the Paramount/Viacom studios.

Any comments?

Atrahasis · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:13:04 am »

You know what the ONLY reference book in Star Trek fandom is taken to be canon?

The original Franz Joseph technical manual from 1974. That's because for the TMP movies they drew heavily from it, from diagrams to names and classes and types of starships that can be seen on displays or readouts or plaques or comm chatter. It was Franz who originally called the original 14 or so ships "Constitution" class. His book is probably the only instance where a fan book affected actual movie production.

Swordsman · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:29:41 am »

Actually, the readout screen that Khan was reading in the TOS episode "Space Seed" read Constitution-class and had good old 1700 in the 3 view. The words can not be seen, but a lof of canonical TOS sources are the tiny plaques, tech readouts, and lists that appeared on the set and yet were too small to read.

Kaenyne · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2003, 11:19:52 am »

Not to sound argumentative, but the Enterprise 1701 was indeed referred to as Constitution Class by Jean-Luc Picard in the TNG episode in which Scotty is resured from teh Dyson Shphere (the episode name escapes). It occurs during the scene in which Scotty recreates the original Enterprise brige on the holodeck and Picard pays him a visit to remember "the old days."

The Postman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2003, 12:14:05 pm »

For starters just because you say it doesn't make it so.
In 1794 congress authorized the construction of 6 frigates for a navy that didn't have any ships. The USS United States, Constitution ,President, Congress, Constellation and Chesapeake were the 6 ships constructed as well as the USS Essex which was built separately. Except for the USS Constitution, none of these ships exist today.These ships were sometimes referred to as United States class frigates. The USS Constitution has a long and distinguished history that is unequeled in the worlds navies. Through this long life the ship has been rebuilt and restored many times to the point where it has been estamated that less than 10% of the original ship remained. No one has ever suggested that this is not the same ship or it's class has changed through the various rebuilds.

The USS Constellation is a diffrent story however. This was another ship built as part of th original 6. In 1854 after several rebuilds, she was deemed unfit for further rebuilds and broken up in Gosport VA. A new ship was built using some of the salvaged lumber and given the name USS Constellation. This ship was of a newer design than the original 1797 ship.

The question is this. Can you document the TOS USS Enterprise being decommisioned and a new ship being built from scratch (possibly with parts from the TOS ship) or was the ship substantialy rebuilt but never decommisioned. This needs to be documented. I don't want to change excepted canon history because some bozo put some words on a plaque for a movie set. You would not believe some of the BS that goes into movie sets by people that don't know anything about the subject material. I will ask "Roddy" jr If he has any thoughts on this if he ever comes back to town .

ChrisJohnson · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2003, 12:22:14 pm »

To me, it will always be Constitution-class. It was referred to as such in "The Naked Now" (TNG) and "Relics" (TNG) as well as Star Trek 6... That's 3 referances against the 1 reference to it being an Enterprise-class (which could be a nickname for a certain class of people). It's also firmly already referred to as Constitution-class (and since it was said it was a redesign and refit job in TMP, a Constitution-class [Refit]) I never thought Enterprise-class suited the Enterprise... Too egotistical for the ship and her crew robbing the title of first ship in the class from U.S.S. Constitution due to it's famous crew from 2264-2269.

Going at this at a more opinionative state, I think deeming the U.S.S. Constitution and her sisterships, even the U.S.S. Enterprise, not Constitution-class Starships throughout their entire services is like saying the NX-01 from Enterprise is of the same timeline as TOS or TNG would be, when it has so many inconsistancies that it is basically another timeline and reality all-together (I.E. "Parallels" [TNG]. 285,000 hails from 285,000 Enterprise-Ds came to a single Enterprise-D... Meaning there was 285,000 realities. Suppose one of them were a more-advanced reality when Phasers and Transporters existed in the 22nd century, and so was Starships like the NX-01 fitted as well as the NCC-1701 Constitution-class Enterprise for exploration missions and in Nemesis, we see a glimpse into the timeline that included the NX-01 Enterprise in it's timeline [Mabye Data and the rest of the Ent-D/Ent-E crew existed after Nemesis in the timeline we know before the NX-01 was even thought of!], which all sums up to my Parallels Theory) ... And this comes to the fact that we don't always go by canon material. Pestalence and I don't always go on canon material, but on different things that is. This is one of those times where he and I would disagree.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone... I think I'm starting to confuse myself, reading this over and over again. lol

ChrisJohnson · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2003, 01:41:43 pm »

Y'know... In early Trek, Phasers were Photon Torpedoes, and lasers were only the stream-based weapons around. Later in TOS, Photon Torps were Photon Torps and Phasers were Phasers like in TNG and DS9 and VGR and the alternate reality Enterprise... If you were dissapointed at Starship-class being replaced as Constitution-class due to diversity of hull designs, be mad at how weapons look and were established as in early early Trek, and new Warp Scales making sense in the 1980s made by Gene Roddenberry, and on the fact that Akira Toriyama expanded 5 minutes into 10 episodes of Dragon Ball Z in 1991!

Mabye some things are best kept unexplained, and opinions kept to ourselves. I think that DBZ remark, and even class of ships in Trek should be one of many of them. Agreed? Or are you going to war with fact and popular opinion?

BTW, what do you think of my Parallels Theory? I never got a good comment on it when I first thought of it in the Summer of 2002.

anduril · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2003, 03:51:12 pm »

P, you've sold me to the point where I changed the dedication plaque on the bridge I'm making at the moment.

Most of us have probably heard it refered to as a "Starship Class Ship" by James T. Gene also did bless Franz Joseph's work and some of it did make it onscreen in the movies.
I would surmise that "Constitution Class" came from FJ's work. GR and the writers drew heavily from the Armed Forces when it came to certain protocols and for many years the first ship of a class was the class ship and therefor lent it's name to that class. Too much class in that last sentence I think.

But I still need to see it legible on a DVD. So I'm going into the cage for starters. That's to listen for references other than the time JTK said it as I 'm pretty sure the plaque isn't in the cage, If you know of specific episodes where it can be plainly seen let me know please.

The Postman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2003, 04:09:03 pm »

Paramount would be wise to create a canon universe and publish it so that ALL aspects of Star Trek will hang together.
Having said that, I believe that when the TOS was in production no one anticipated the need for a star Trek universe or that somebody was going to take a magnifying glass to every frame of film. Franz Josef tried to fill in some of the blanks after TOS was cancelled. In fact it was not untill the end of the shoot for WOK when they left the door open for a third movie did any one start to see the need for one. Unlike Star Wars where everything was thought out from the very first movie, they have been making everything up as they went along. Consequently there are and will be differences between TOS, the movies and the tv series's. I believe,that Paramount would change several details in past productions to make Star Trek history more consistent if they could.
Somewhere in these forums, someone stated that Gene Roddenberry made the statment that if it wasn't on film, it wasn't canon. I can go along with that except that there stll are discepencies in various facts and details that need to be worked out. It always was my understanding that SFB was loosely based on the Franz Josef book, but later in the movie productions they also started using it as reference material. If you go by GR thoughts above there still is a difference of opinion on this topic. However I do and will believe that what we see in later productions is what they wanted us(the public) to build the ST Universe from. Even you have to admit, TOS would have been entirely different if they had continued with the version we saw in The Cage. While I admit that The Cage is now part of ST history, lets look at them for what it are: a cheap way to put 2 more episodes on the air from a pilot that wasn't going to be seen any other way.

Pestalence · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2003, 08:00:15 pm »

Here are aome screen shots that I had to take on my web cam when playing back some saved clips on DVD..

This one is from "The Enterprise Incident"

look near the rear of the bridge by the turbo lift.. if you have the full sersion.. watch it as the characters will pass by it a couple of times per episode (if episode is based on the ship) or it can be seen in the background...... Keep in mind that this is the TOS reference to "Starship Class" hull designation...

Here is a shot from "Where No Man Has Gone Before".. Look behind kirk's back

and the last shot that I had time to get was this one from "Space Seed"

other episodes that I can think of immediately off the top of my head is "Balance of Terror", "Doomsday Machine", and "The Cage".

The dedication plaquae is located on the side of port turbolift and can be seen in almost every episode... and each episode is consistant for "Starship Class".. not "Constitution Class".

Hope that this helps....

anduril · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:02:40 pm »

I have a number of dvd's that I do caps off of. I've yet to find one with a clear or at least readable plaque on it. Balance of Terror and The Doomsday Machine both show it but It's unreadable. Same goes for The Deadly Years. The original "The Cage" does not have the plaque or the red alert beacon on the port side of the lift.

The blueprints I have, not the Franz Josepth ones, have the plaque reading...

U.S.S. Enterprise
constructed by
San Francisco yards

Which I can tell is wrong even on the blurry screen caps I have since the second line has two words but they are only a couple letters different in size.

I don't have the space seed yet but I still have a number of others to look through.

mathcubeguy · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:45:31 pm »

The Cage was shown on tv one day.

James Formo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:49:52 pm »

You say tomato-I say tomoto

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Topic: There is no such thing as a Constitution Class ship.. My proof is... (Read 13169 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Pestalence

Atrahasis

Swordsman

Pestalence

Kaenyne

Pestalence

The Postman

ChrisJohnson

Pestalence

Pestalence

ChrisJohnson

ChrisJohnson

Pestalence

anduril

The Postman

Pestalence

anduril

Pestalence

mathcubeguy

James Formo

Topic: There is no such thing as a Constitution Class ship.. My proof is... (Read 13169 times)