Topic: 2.5.4.10 CTD: Admin shuttle vs AI (Read 10843 times)

TarMinyatur · « **on:** July 23, 2003, 05:59:48 pm »

I am having difficulty reproducing this bug but I have seen it a handful of times.

Launch an admin shuttle against the AI. Slow down to let the shuttle get between you and the enemy (a slow stripped R-WB+ works well). The AI may try to capture/hit&run the shuttle which causes a CTD (I don't see the transporter effect)...

From the readme:

7) AI tries to board fighters - fixed

I'm not sure if this applies to admins.

Alternatively, it could have something to do with my test ship, the R-DUM, which has no shields and a turn mode of "H"(immobile). I'm trying to reproduce the crash with a regular R-WB+ but haven't yet succeeded though I haven't done a lot of trials.

I'm totally guessing that the new code which prevents the AI from beaming to fighters might conflict with admin shuttles. Maybe it has something to do with plasma...though I doubt the AI would ever fire an EPT/shotgun Plasma at an admin. EDIT: The AI does fire 50 point R-torps at admins!

I need more eyes looking at this phenomenon.

Thanks.

FireSoul · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:25:52 pm »

unable to reproduce.
(2 attempts)

FireSoul · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:30:29 pm »

could it be a pseudo from a dying ship? Ever noticed how it sends out a pseudo at some odd target when it's close to death?

-- Luc

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:38:29 pm »

The first time I saw this the AI was in perfect health. I got the feeling that the AI was trying to do something to the admin. Either fire a psuedo at it (does the AI ever use Psuedoes except when the launcher is destroyed?) or board it. Maybe the Admin was trying to do something that crashed the game.

Toasty0 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:41:41 pm »

2 attemps to reproduce. Used SS, and assualt shuttles...the AI used a-d-d or phaser fire to kill shuttles. It never did try to board.

On the 3rd try with standard Admin the graphic failed to display, but the game played correctly otherwise.

Best,
Jerry

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:04:34 pm »

Some more info to help reproduce bug:

Take G-BB against a modded ship with 1 Plas-R 360, 1 Ph3 360, turn mode G(starbase) or H(immobile), no shields, and no cloak.
Get to range 5.5 and stop.
Let AI fire everything at you.
Wait until AI is about 20 seconds from being ready to fire both weapons.
Launch 1 admin shuttle on attack mode.

The shuttle should get between you and the target.

AI apparently tries to fire both weapons simultaneously (at different targets?) resulting in a CTD.

Corbomite · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:12:20 pm »

Quote:

Some more info to help reproduce bug:

Take G-BB against a modded ship with 1 Plas-R 360, 1 Ph3 360, turn mode G(starbase) or H(immobile), no shields, and no cloak.
Get to range 5.5 and stop.
Let AI fire everything at you.
Wait until AI is about 20 seconds from being ready to fire both weapons.
Launch 1 admin shuttle on attack mode.

The shuttle should get between you and the target.

AI apparently tries to fire both weapons simultaneously (at different targets?) resulting in a CTD.

LOL! No offence Tar, but when is that circumstance EVER going to show up in a normal game?

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:33:24 pm »

Of course, I intend to use a regular ship when I narrow down the circumstances of the crash. A regular ship is quite difficult to use for tests. Anyways, the modded ship doesn't use anything illegal. The only odd thing is the lack of shields. 360 degree plasma are found on starbases, which are essentially ships, and can be piloted. I've used turn mode "H" for years without noticing anything detrimental in tests.

I've learned that the plasma is not the cause. My suggestion that simlutaneous firings might be the cause is unsupported. I just CTD when the ship appeared to be ready to fire its Ph-3. while the Plas-R was recharging. Cloak is not the cause either.

I'm getting closer to the cause.

Cleaven · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:46:13 pm »

One of the things that would be handy to have in the standard shiplist is a small and large crash test dummy, no shields, no move, no turn, and enough hull and hard point boxes to do tests on. I was way too lazy to make one and then swap shiplists to do this sort of thing.

<several swift kicks to self for being an idle git>

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2003, 09:44:17 pm »

OK, here's the deal. If a ship (controlled by AI or player) has no shields by design and tries to use a t-bomb then the game will CTD. This means that Andromedans or Borg would be difficult to add to OP. They could get minimal shields to overcome this bug.

Thanks for your help. I'm glad this is a very minor problem.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2003, 10:00:02 pm »

HEHE!!!! Can you say "the quantum mechanics of bug testing"??? The act of testing for a bug creates a bug (The act of observation effects the system observed). Don't get me wrong, Tar. I think it's great you do all this testing, but you have to admit that is pretty funny. By the act of creating a ship without shields, you produced the conditions for a bug and a CTD. How zen!!!!

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2003, 10:19:09 pm »

I agree, it is thoroughly amusing.

I later noticed that trying to reinforce shields on a ship with one or more nominally strength zero shields will CTD. So in order for everything to work properly with t-bombs and reinforcement a ship must have at least strength 2 shields all around. Strength 1 shields don't exist, in fact no odd-numbered shield strengths exist. They're reduced by 1, likely a result of "fixing" double internals on shields in SFC1.03. The old folks around here remember 72 point shields on the C7.

FireSoul · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2003, 10:54:51 pm »

Care to try with other OP or EAW versions?

Corbomite · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:23:07 pm »

This is just my opinion, but I don't think modding the game so far out of it's normal playing parameters and then seeing a "bug" that cauaes a CTD is a worthwhile endeavor.

And there is no 360 degree plasma R arc. Even SB have only a 300 degree arc on them for plasma R. Plasma S have a 360 degree arc.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2003, 07:16:23 am »

It seems to me the testers group, though made up of some solid testers, could use more members (specifically people like Tar who DO test a lot, not just anybody who wants early patch access). I've heard of at least 3 possible bugs that are causing severe problems, including PPD vs. cloak and the stuff described here.

I'm also bothered by the fact that the game allows shield strengths of odd numbers via spec edits (and in fact, the stock ships have some odd shielding numbers), but penalizes a ship that has them. Why can't that be fixed? It may be minor, but it's still a problem. I had thought (and once posted about it) that the rounded-down shield values were an error in the shipyard that didn't affect play. Nobody bothered to post anything in response when I brought it up, so I just let it go -- nobody cared. It would be nice if players were at least INFORMED in the notes if odd value shields really are rounded down. Otherwise, the shipyard should display the correct value.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2003, 07:38:48 am »

On second thought, what's the point? There will always be bugs that slip through, and either they are serious enough to fix or they're not. Why add people to a mostly-dead forum when everyone keeps saying this is the final OP patch?

(By the way, I've heard that before and been pleasantly surprised by additional patches, so always take "final" with a grain of salt and appreciate the extra efforts when they happen.)

First and foremost, I'd like to say I'm impressed how few serious issues actually do come up considering Dave Ferrell is (as far as I know) the only Taldren employee working on patches. It's not like he's got unlimited time and resources to throw at a problem.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:59:30 am »

So I guess an asteroid base (no shields, far as I know) either never uses T-bombs or doesn't have this same problem??

Holocat · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2003, 03:39:00 pm »

Uh, i'm not *certain* of this, but playing on bonk's server I remember seeing a few instances where an AI will attempt to board AI fighters. I see the transport graphic, in any event.

Yes, it's a kinda stupid thing for the AI to do, but when, really, has the AI been awarded with high intelligence in this game?

Anyway, i'll go and see if I can get AI's to board AI fighters again,

Holocat.

David Ferrell · « **Reply #27 on:** July 25, 2003, 11:46:48 am »

Either way it is fixed.

Thanks,

Dave

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2003, 03:21:18 pm »

Clearly, you were hallucinating....

Strafer · « **Reply #32 on:** July 25, 2003, 03:54:46 pm »

... and the award for the "Nice Try" category goes to Sethan.

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #38 on:** July 27, 2003, 09:31:24 pm »

James,
Have you been drinking today? LOL

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #39 on:** July 23, 2003, 05:59:48 pm »

I am having difficulty reproducing this bug but I have seen it a handful of times.

Launch an admin shuttle against the AI. Slow down to let the shuttle get between you and the enemy (a slow stripped R-WB+ works well). The AI may try to capture/hit&run the shuttle which causes a CTD (I don't see the transporter effect)...

From the readme:

7) AI tries to board fighters - fixed

I'm not sure if this applies to admins.

Alternatively, it could have something to do with my test ship, the R-DUM, which has no shields and a turn mode of "H"(immobile). I'm trying to reproduce the crash with a regular R-WB+ but haven't yet succeeded though I haven't done a lot of trials.

I'm totally guessing that the new code which prevents the AI from beaming to fighters might conflict with admin shuttles. Maybe it has something to do with plasma...though I doubt the AI would ever fire an EPT/shotgun Plasma at an admin. EDIT: The AI does fire 50 point R-torps at admins!

I need more eyes looking at this phenomenon.

Thanks.

FireSoul · « **Reply #40 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:25:52 pm »

unable to reproduce.
(2 attempts)

FireSoul · « **Reply #41 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:30:29 pm »

could it be a pseudo from a dying ship? Ever noticed how it sends out a pseudo at some odd target when it's close to death?

-- Luc

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #42 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:38:29 pm »

The first time I saw this the AI was in perfect health. I got the feeling that the AI was trying to do something to the admin. Either fire a psuedo at it (does the AI ever use Psuedoes except when the launcher is destroyed?) or board it. Maybe the Admin was trying to do something that crashed the game.

Toasty0 · « **Reply #43 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:41:41 pm »

2 attemps to reproduce. Used SS, and assualt shuttles...the AI used a-d-d or phaser fire to kill shuttles. It never did try to board.

On the 3rd try with standard Admin the graphic failed to display, but the game played correctly otherwise.

Best,
Jerry

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #44 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:04:34 pm »

Some more info to help reproduce bug:

Take G-BB against a modded ship with 1 Plas-R 360, 1 Ph3 360, turn mode G(starbase) or H(immobile), no shields, and no cloak.
Get to range 5.5 and stop.
Let AI fire everything at you.
Wait until AI is about 20 seconds from being ready to fire both weapons.
Launch 1 admin shuttle on attack mode.

The shuttle should get between you and the target.

AI apparently tries to fire both weapons simultaneously (at different targets?) resulting in a CTD.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #47 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:33:24 pm »

Of course, I intend to use a regular ship when I narrow down the circumstances of the crash. A regular ship is quite difficult to use for tests. Anyways, the modded ship doesn't use anything illegal. The only odd thing is the lack of shields. 360 degree plasma are found on starbases, which are essentially ships, and can be piloted. I've used turn mode "H" for years without noticing anything detrimental in tests.

I've learned that the plasma is not the cause. My suggestion that simlutaneous firings might be the cause is unsupported. I just CTD when the ship appeared to be ready to fire its Ph-3. while the Plas-R was recharging. Cloak is not the cause either.

I'm getting closer to the cause.

Cleaven · « **Reply #48 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:46:13 pm »

One of the things that would be handy to have in the standard shiplist is a small and large crash test dummy, no shields, no move, no turn, and enough hull and hard point boxes to do tests on. I was way too lazy to make one and then swap shiplists to do this sort of thing.

<several swift kicks to self for being an idle git>

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #50 on:** July 23, 2003, 09:44:17 pm »

OK, here's the deal. If a ship (controlled by AI or player) has no shields by design and tries to use a t-bomb then the game will CTD. This means that Andromedans or Borg would be difficult to add to OP. They could get minimal shields to overcome this bug.

Thanks for your help. I'm glad this is a very minor problem.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #51 on:** July 23, 2003, 10:00:02 pm »

HEHE!!!! Can you say "the quantum mechanics of bug testing"??? The act of testing for a bug creates a bug (The act of observation effects the system observed). Don't get me wrong, Tar. I think it's great you do all this testing, but you have to admit that is pretty funny. By the act of creating a ship without shields, you produced the conditions for a bug and a CTD. How zen!!!!

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #52 on:** July 23, 2003, 10:19:09 pm »

I agree, it is thoroughly amusing.

I later noticed that trying to reinforce shields on a ship with one or more nominally strength zero shields will CTD. So in order for everything to work properly with t-bombs and reinforcement a ship must have at least strength 2 shields all around. Strength 1 shields don't exist, in fact no odd-numbered shield strengths exist. They're reduced by 1, likely a result of "fixing" double internals on shields in SFC1.03. The old folks around here remember 72 point shields on the C7.

FireSoul · « **Reply #53 on:** July 23, 2003, 10:54:51 pm »

Care to try with other OP or EAW versions?

Corbomite · « **Reply #54 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:23:07 pm »

This is just my opinion, but I don't think modding the game so far out of it's normal playing parameters and then seeing a "bug" that cauaes a CTD is a worthwhile endeavor.

And there is no 360 degree plasma R arc. Even SB have only a 300 degree arc on them for plasma R. Plasma S have a 360 degree arc.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #57 on:** July 24, 2003, 07:16:23 am »

It seems to me the testers group, though made up of some solid testers, could use more members (specifically people like Tar who DO test a lot, not just anybody who wants early patch access). I've heard of at least 3 possible bugs that are causing severe problems, including PPD vs. cloak and the stuff described here.

I'm also bothered by the fact that the game allows shield strengths of odd numbers via spec edits (and in fact, the stock ships have some odd shielding numbers), but penalizes a ship that has them. Why can't that be fixed? It may be minor, but it's still a problem. I had thought (and once posted about it) that the rounded-down shield values were an error in the shipyard that didn't affect play. Nobody bothered to post anything in response when I brought it up, so I just let it go -- nobody cared. It would be nice if players were at least INFORMED in the notes if odd value shields really are rounded down. Otherwise, the shipyard should display the correct value.

jdmckinney · « **Reply #58 on:** July 24, 2003, 07:38:48 am »

On second thought, what's the point? There will always be bugs that slip through, and either they are serious enough to fix or they're not. Why add people to a mostly-dead forum when everyone keeps saying this is the final OP patch?

(By the way, I've heard that before and been pleasantly surprised by additional patches, so always take "final" with a grain of salt and appreciate the extra efforts when they happen.)

First and foremost, I'd like to say I'm impressed how few serious issues actually do come up considering Dave Ferrell is (as far as I know) the only Taldren employee working on patches. It's not like he's got unlimited time and resources to throw at a problem.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #61 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:59:30 am »

So I guess an asteroid base (no shields, far as I know) either never uses T-bombs or doesn't have this same problem??

Holocat · « **Reply #64 on:** July 24, 2003, 03:39:00 pm »

Uh, i'm not *certain* of this, but playing on bonk's server I remember seeing a few instances where an AI will attempt to board AI fighters. I see the transport graphic, in any event.

Yes, it's a kinda stupid thing for the AI to do, but when, really, has the AI been awarded with high intelligence in this game?

Anyway, i'll go and see if I can get AI's to board AI fighters again,

Holocat.

David Ferrell · « **Reply #66 on:** July 25, 2003, 11:46:48 am »

Either way it is fixed.

Thanks,

Dave

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #69 on:** July 25, 2003, 03:21:18 pm »

Clearly, you were hallucinating....

Strafer · « **Reply #71 on:** July 25, 2003, 03:54:46 pm »

... and the award for the "Nice Try" category goes to Sethan.

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #77 on:** July 27, 2003, 09:31:24 pm »

James,
Have you been drinking today? LOL

News:

Topic: 2.5.4.10 CTD: Admin shuttle vs AI (Read 10843 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Toasty0

TarMinyatur

Corbomite

Toasty0

TarMinyatur

Cleaven

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Lepton1

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

Corbomite

Rod O'neal

Scipio_66

jdmckinney

jdmckinney

TarMinyatur

TarMinyatur

Lepton1

Dogmatix!

Rod O'neal

Holocat

TarMinyatur

David Ferrell

SPQR Renegade001

Sethan

Dogmatix!

Sethan

Strafer

Sethan

TarMinyatur

Toasty0

Sethan

James Formo

Rod O'neal

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Toasty0

TarMinyatur

Corbomite

Toasty0

TarMinyatur

Cleaven

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Lepton1

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

Corbomite

Rod O'neal

Scipio_66

jdmckinney

jdmckinney

TarMinyatur

TarMinyatur

Lepton1

Dogmatix!

Rod O'neal

Holocat

TarMinyatur

David Ferrell

SPQR Renegade001

Sethan

Dogmatix!

Sethan

Strafer

Sethan

TarMinyatur

Topic: 2.5.4.10 CTD: Admin shuttle vs AI (Read 10843 times)