Topic: Too many PPD damage volleys per DAC cycle (Read 6246 times)

TarMinyatur · « **on:** July 23, 2003, 12:04:07 am »

According to the 2.5.3.8 readme:

18)Overlapping PPD shots no longer cause too many volley cycles (Mizia).

Which means 2 range 11-15 PPD's fired simultaneously will do a volleys of 10, 10, 10, 10 instead of 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 assuming all facing shields are down of course. This is not the case in 2.5.4.10. Each PPD pulse resets the DAC regardless of the passage of time, unlike every other weapon in the game.

Corbomite · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2003, 01:35:00 am »

Confirmed.

FireSoul · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2003, 02:24:03 am »

It's correct.

..That's because the SFB way (and previous patches) is 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1..

.. which is a LOT of volleys. I think it was found to be too strong.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2003, 09:15:14 am »

FS, I'm not sure you understand my point or I am misreading your post.

pre-2.5.2.5: The game lumped volleys together due to the 1/20th of a turn volley cycle while using a 1/32nd firing rate. This made a PPD typically do just 2 volleys instead of 4 (or 3 instead of 6 for OL). The ISC were rightfully concerned about being partially deprived of the PPD's natural Mizia effect.

2.5.2.5: KhoroMag attempted to fix this by having each pulse reset the DAC. This made the PPD of ISC fleets extraordinarily powerful (which is in agreement with SFB rules, but without the PPD deployment limitations imposed on ISC fleets). This was brought to Taldren's attention and they decided to change this in the next patch.

2.5.3.8: The special reset of the DAC by PPDs was removed and the game's volley cycle was changed to 1/32nd of a turn. This made the PPD like every weapon in the game, volleys were based solely on time, and all was relatively good.

2.5.4.10: PPD's have regained the advantageous DAC reset and perhaps the 1/20th turn cycle has been reimplemented.

Corbomite · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2003, 09:25:41 am »

^^^^^^

What he said.

Fahrenheit · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:43:29 am »

One problem with the PPD volleys is that, even in SFB, if you fire two PPD's that hit at the same time, they do NOT create different volleys.

That could be the problem that SFC was having when each PPD wave reset the DAC - you fire 2 PPD's, and get 8 volleys instead of 4.

F°
"We must either find a way or make one." -- Hannibal

Strafer · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:51:38 am »

Quote:

...even in SFB, if you fire two PPD's that hit at the same time, they do NOT create different volleys.

Then you have not read the same rules as I.

kiloton · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2003, 12:39:33 pm »

In SFB, if multiple PPDs hit on an impulse, they are each resolved as seperate volleys.

Ken

Fahrenheit · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2003, 01:32:00 pm »

Quote:

Quote:

...even in SFB, if you fire two PPD's that hit at the same time, they do NOT create different volleys.

Then you have not read the same rules as I.

Right you are. I just ran a check at ADB's SFB BBS, and came across a clarification that was printed in the Tourney Reference Guide.

Guess I've been playing wrong for some time. Although, I don't know how long it's been since I've played a game of SFB that had more than one PPD in it.

F°
"The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." -- C.S. Lewis

Strafer · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2003, 01:37:09 pm »

All the better for you F, It is something that was brought up long ago and was doublechecked.
It fits with the ISC doctrine if you think about it. They're here to pacify, not anhialate. That weapon, when used with full blown mizia effect, will leave you with a perfectly servicable ship with no offiensive capabilities. The difference between caving someone's face in with a sledgehammer or taking a chisel and knocking out the teeth one by one

FireSoul · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2003, 03:04:36 pm »

Quote:

It's correct.

..That's because the SFB way (and previous patches) is 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1..

.. which is a LOT of volleys. I think it was found to be too strong.

.. What I'm trying to say, is that the damage, which is a mizia hit on a per-shield basis, was merged into 1.
Instead of a 1-3-1 per impulse, you now have a 5.

E11.322:
All damage scored by a given PPD during a given impulse is resolved as a single volley separate from other weapons (including other PPDs) and other pulses of that PPD. (...)

You get it?

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2003, 03:43:19 pm »

I think so...

For example, a ship has zero strength shields all around and is hit by a PPD at range 12. The damage from a pulse (1+3+1) would pass into the DAC as a single combined volley of 5 rather than a volley of 1 plus a second volley of 3 plus a third volley of 1.

Is this what you mean? I think that a normal PPD doing up to 12 volleys would be OTT.

[scratches head]

FireSoul · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2003, 03:52:59 pm »

That's it. You got it.

Fahrenheit · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2003, 04:59:02 pm »

Right;

A single pulse by a single PPD will create only one volley.

In SFB, this may be a volley of 5 (1+3+1), but you'd resolve the 3, then one of the 1's, then the other 1.

This is due to them coming in from different shields, and possibly being able to damage different phasers as a result.

e.g. You hit a Hydran cruiser with down shields. This ship has 2xFA+L Ph-2's, 2xFA+R Ph-2's, and a LS and RS Gat. on You hit his #3 shield - so he takes 3 in the #3, 1 in the #2, and 1 in the #4.

You resolve the 3 through the #3 first. The FA+R phasers and the RS gat can be killed here.

Then you resolve either the lone internal through the #2 or #4 (I _think_ it's owner choice, but it may be random which one is taken first - doesn't matter). Let's say we do the #2 next.

If a phaser is hit, it can be scored on the FA+L, FA+R or the RS gat.

Then you resolve the lone internal through the #4. Only the RS gat and LS gat can be scored on a phaser hit.

But even though you (in SFB) have to concern yourself with the ORDER that you take the internals, they're all considered the same volley.

Max_iCOP · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2003, 08:56:47 am »

Wait a sec .... that's not how I remember it. But it has been a while since I played SFB.

We (my SFB group) used to have one volley for all the PPD elements, but just considered all phasers facing a down shield fair game.

I'd love to re-read the SFB rules chapter and verse to find out. But my rules are 300 miles away, anyone got a copy on-hand?

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:32:05 am »

Quote:

Wait a sec .... that's not how I remember it. But it has been a while since I played SFB.

We (my SFB group) used to have one volley for all the PPD elements, but just considered all phasers facing a down shield fair game.

I'd love to re-read the SFB rules chapter and verse to find out. But my rules are 300 miles away, anyone got a copy on-hand?

Farenheit has it right. The only thing that isn't clearly mentioned is that the DAC doesn't reset for the splash damage. He does say it's a single volley though.

Max_iCOP · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:15:32 pm »

I think I got it.

The 5 internals may be called in shield order, but the DAC does not reset.
Which is what we did (in our way).

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:49:08 pm »

Quote:

It's correct.

..That's because the SFB way (and previous patches) is 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1..

.. which is a LOT of volleys. I think it was found to be too strong.

As I read this again, I think it implies that the game was allocating 3 volleys per pulse. This was never the case in SFC.

VollyInfo would display:

3:0
2:0
1:5

Not:

3:1
2:3
1:1

FireSoul · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:56:52 pm »

I think you should install good old 2525.
I'm positive it used to do the old '1-1-3' in the damage display.

-- Lyc

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2003, 10:31:11 pm »

I'll wager 400 quatloos that you are wrong!

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2003, 11:02:14 pm »

Well, now it does:

3:5
2:5
1:5

Which is fine with me. It's not perfect, but close enough for SFC. The whole idea of the PPD is to Mizia you to death. This makes it able to do that.

FireSoul · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2003, 11:15:34 pm »

hm. maybe it was during testing that I saw that. oh well.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2003, 11:42:50 pm »

Rod, you're missing the point.

A single PPD should do 5, 5, 5, 5 exactly as you stated from range 11-15.

The issue here is whether two PPD's fired together should do 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 or 10, 10, 10, 10.

EAW 2.036 and OP 2.5.3.8 do the latter.

Only OP 2.5.4.10 does the former.

PPD's are getting an undocumented boost in this patch. Try playing a 3v3 while facing typically 6 PPD's on the ISC side. One combined PPD attack can do 24 volleys in just 4 seconds (ouch!). If Taldren wants to improve the PPD then that's great. I'm just pointing out that an unintentional change may have occured.

Dave?

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #23 on:** July 25, 2003, 08:02:10 am »

Tar,
I understand what you are pointing out, and you are right to do so. Taldren had made a decision to combine PPDs and the new patch reverses that. I just personally like it with multiple PPDs doing their own set of vollies. I understand that people can put together fleets with too many PPDs, and the bombardment ship w/6 is over the top, but people can also take a fleet of escorts too, or 3BBs, or whatever. I think that combining multiple PPDs into a single volley takes too much away from it. IMO

Tumulorum Fossor · « **Reply #24 on:** July 25, 2003, 04:11:50 pm »

Toss another detail for the OP FAQ.

I agree with Rod.

I think the latest patch (5-5-5-5-5-5) better emulates the SFB nature of PPD moreso than (10-10-10).

Just my opinion.

-TF

3dot14 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 25, 2003, 04:35:39 pm »

Regardless whether it's intentional or not. I think it's a good change, and should be kept. (both from SFC and SFB perspectives, according to the SFB rules quoted here)

5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5

Anoter item for the OP FAQ indeed.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #26 on:** July 25, 2003, 10:59:05 pm »

Yep, the PPD should probably enjoy the full Mizia effect it inherits from SFB, but so should the Hellbore, ESG, and seeking weapons. These weapons should also call for new volleys in the DAC, albeit collectively. I know we'll never see that.

Regardless, we'll adjust to whatever Taldren decides. Either way, it doesn't harm gameplay...it just tweaks it.

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #27 on:** July 25, 2003, 11:27:20 pm »

True, true. I'm just thrilled to see Dave/Taldren do this for us

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2003, 12:04:07 am »

According to the 2.5.3.8 readme:

18)Overlapping PPD shots no longer cause too many volley cycles (Mizia).

Which means 2 range 11-15 PPD's fired simultaneously will do a volleys of 10, 10, 10, 10 instead of 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 assuming all facing shields are down of course. This is not the case in 2.5.4.10. Each PPD pulse resets the DAC regardless of the passage of time, unlike every other weapon in the game.

Corbomite · « **Reply #29 on:** July 23, 2003, 01:35:00 am »

Confirmed.

FireSoul · « **Reply #30 on:** July 23, 2003, 02:24:03 am »

It's correct.

..That's because the SFB way (and previous patches) is 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1..

.. which is a LOT of volleys. I think it was found to be too strong.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2003, 09:15:14 am »

FS, I'm not sure you understand my point or I am misreading your post.

pre-2.5.2.5: The game lumped volleys together due to the 1/20th of a turn volley cycle while using a 1/32nd firing rate. This made a PPD typically do just 2 volleys instead of 4 (or 3 instead of 6 for OL). The ISC were rightfully concerned about being partially deprived of the PPD's natural Mizia effect.

2.5.2.5: KhoroMag attempted to fix this by having each pulse reset the DAC. This made the PPD of ISC fleets extraordinarily powerful (which is in agreement with SFB rules, but without the PPD deployment limitations imposed on ISC fleets). This was brought to Taldren's attention and they decided to change this in the next patch.

2.5.3.8: The special reset of the DAC by PPDs was removed and the game's volley cycle was changed to 1/32nd of a turn. This made the PPD like every weapon in the game, volleys were based solely on time, and all was relatively good.

2.5.4.10: PPD's have regained the advantageous DAC reset and perhaps the 1/20th turn cycle has been reimplemented.

Corbomite · « **Reply #32 on:** July 23, 2003, 09:25:41 am »

^^^^^^

What he said.

Fahrenheit · « **Reply #33 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:43:29 am »

One problem with the PPD volleys is that, even in SFB, if you fire two PPD's that hit at the same time, they do NOT create different volleys.

That could be the problem that SFC was having when each PPD wave reset the DAC - you fire 2 PPD's, and get 8 volleys instead of 4.

F°
"We must either find a way or make one." -- Hannibal

Strafer · « **Reply #34 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:51:38 am »

Quote:

...even in SFB, if you fire two PPD's that hit at the same time, they do NOT create different volleys.

Then you have not read the same rules as I.

kiloton · « **Reply #35 on:** July 23, 2003, 12:39:33 pm »

In SFB, if multiple PPDs hit on an impulse, they are each resolved as seperate volleys.

Ken

Fahrenheit · « **Reply #36 on:** July 23, 2003, 01:32:00 pm »

Quote:

Quote:

...even in SFB, if you fire two PPD's that hit at the same time, they do NOT create different volleys.

Then you have not read the same rules as I.

Right you are. I just ran a check at ADB's SFB BBS, and came across a clarification that was printed in the Tourney Reference Guide.

Guess I've been playing wrong for some time. Although, I don't know how long it's been since I've played a game of SFB that had more than one PPD in it.

F°
"The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." -- C.S. Lewis

Strafer · « **Reply #37 on:** July 23, 2003, 01:37:09 pm »

All the better for you F, It is something that was brought up long ago and was doublechecked.
It fits with the ISC doctrine if you think about it. They're here to pacify, not anhialate. That weapon, when used with full blown mizia effect, will leave you with a perfectly servicable ship with no offiensive capabilities. The difference between caving someone's face in with a sledgehammer or taking a chisel and knocking out the teeth one by one

FireSoul · « **Reply #38 on:** July 23, 2003, 03:04:36 pm »

Quote:

It's correct.

..That's because the SFB way (and previous patches) is 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1..

.. which is a LOT of volleys. I think it was found to be too strong.

.. What I'm trying to say, is that the damage, which is a mizia hit on a per-shield basis, was merged into 1.
Instead of a 1-3-1 per impulse, you now have a 5.

E11.322:
All damage scored by a given PPD during a given impulse is resolved as a single volley separate from other weapons (including other PPDs) and other pulses of that PPD. (...)

You get it?

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #39 on:** July 23, 2003, 03:43:19 pm »

I think so...

For example, a ship has zero strength shields all around and is hit by a PPD at range 12. The damage from a pulse (1+3+1) would pass into the DAC as a single combined volley of 5 rather than a volley of 1 plus a second volley of 3 plus a third volley of 1.

Is this what you mean? I think that a normal PPD doing up to 12 volleys would be OTT.

[scratches head]

FireSoul · « **Reply #40 on:** July 23, 2003, 03:52:59 pm »

That's it. You got it.

Fahrenheit · « **Reply #41 on:** July 23, 2003, 04:59:02 pm »

Right;

A single pulse by a single PPD will create only one volley.

In SFB, this may be a volley of 5 (1+3+1), but you'd resolve the 3, then one of the 1's, then the other 1.

This is due to them coming in from different shields, and possibly being able to damage different phasers as a result.

e.g. You hit a Hydran cruiser with down shields. This ship has 2xFA+L Ph-2's, 2xFA+R Ph-2's, and a LS and RS Gat. on You hit his #3 shield - so he takes 3 in the #3, 1 in the #2, and 1 in the #4.

You resolve the 3 through the #3 first. The FA+R phasers and the RS gat can be killed here.

Then you resolve either the lone internal through the #2 or #4 (I _think_ it's owner choice, but it may be random which one is taken first - doesn't matter). Let's say we do the #2 next.

If a phaser is hit, it can be scored on the FA+L, FA+R or the RS gat.

Then you resolve the lone internal through the #4. Only the RS gat and LS gat can be scored on a phaser hit.

But even though you (in SFB) have to concern yourself with the ORDER that you take the internals, they're all considered the same volley.

Max_iCOP · « **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2003, 08:56:47 am »

Wait a sec .... that's not how I remember it. But it has been a while since I played SFB.

We (my SFB group) used to have one volley for all the PPD elements, but just considered all phasers facing a down shield fair game.

I'd love to re-read the SFB rules chapter and verse to find out. But my rules are 300 miles away, anyone got a copy on-hand?

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #43 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:32:05 am »

Quote:

Wait a sec .... that's not how I remember it. But it has been a while since I played SFB.

We (my SFB group) used to have one volley for all the PPD elements, but just considered all phasers facing a down shield fair game.

I'd love to re-read the SFB rules chapter and verse to find out. But my rules are 300 miles away, anyone got a copy on-hand?

Farenheit has it right. The only thing that isn't clearly mentioned is that the DAC doesn't reset for the splash damage. He does say it's a single volley though.

Max_iCOP · « **Reply #44 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:15:32 pm »

I think I got it.

The 5 internals may be called in shield order, but the DAC does not reset.
Which is what we did (in our way).

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #45 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:49:08 pm »

Quote:

It's correct.

..That's because the SFB way (and previous patches) is 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1, 1-3-1..

.. which is a LOT of volleys. I think it was found to be too strong.

As I read this again, I think it implies that the game was allocating 3 volleys per pulse. This was never the case in SFC.

VollyInfo would display:

3:0
2:0
1:5

Not:

3:1
2:3
1:1

FireSoul · « **Reply #46 on:** July 24, 2003, 09:56:52 pm »

I think you should install good old 2525.
I'm positive it used to do the old '1-1-3' in the damage display.

-- Lyc

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #47 on:** July 24, 2003, 10:31:11 pm »

I'll wager 400 quatloos that you are wrong!

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #48 on:** July 24, 2003, 11:02:14 pm »

Well, now it does:

3:5
2:5
1:5

Which is fine with me. It's not perfect, but close enough for SFC. The whole idea of the PPD is to Mizia you to death. This makes it able to do that.

FireSoul · « **Reply #49 on:** July 24, 2003, 11:15:34 pm »

hm. maybe it was during testing that I saw that. oh well.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #50 on:** July 24, 2003, 11:42:50 pm »

Rod, you're missing the point.

A single PPD should do 5, 5, 5, 5 exactly as you stated from range 11-15.

The issue here is whether two PPD's fired together should do 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 or 10, 10, 10, 10.

EAW 2.036 and OP 2.5.3.8 do the latter.

Only OP 2.5.4.10 does the former.

PPD's are getting an undocumented boost in this patch. Try playing a 3v3 while facing typically 6 PPD's on the ISC side. One combined PPD attack can do 24 volleys in just 4 seconds (ouch!). If Taldren wants to improve the PPD then that's great. I'm just pointing out that an unintentional change may have occured.

Dave?

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #51 on:** July 25, 2003, 08:02:10 am »

Tar,
I understand what you are pointing out, and you are right to do so. Taldren had made a decision to combine PPDs and the new patch reverses that. I just personally like it with multiple PPDs doing their own set of vollies. I understand that people can put together fleets with too many PPDs, and the bombardment ship w/6 is over the top, but people can also take a fleet of escorts too, or 3BBs, or whatever. I think that combining multiple PPDs into a single volley takes too much away from it. IMO

Tumulorum Fossor · « **Reply #52 on:** July 25, 2003, 04:11:50 pm »

Toss another detail for the OP FAQ.

I agree with Rod.

I think the latest patch (5-5-5-5-5-5) better emulates the SFB nature of PPD moreso than (10-10-10).

Just my opinion.

-TF

3dot14 · « **Reply #53 on:** July 25, 2003, 04:35:39 pm »

Regardless whether it's intentional or not. I think it's a good change, and should be kept. (both from SFC and SFB perspectives, according to the SFB rules quoted here)

5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5

Anoter item for the OP FAQ indeed.

TarMinyatur · « **Reply #54 on:** July 25, 2003, 10:59:05 pm »

Yep, the PPD should probably enjoy the full Mizia effect it inherits from SFB, but so should the Hellbore, ESG, and seeking weapons. These weapons should also call for new volleys in the DAC, albeit collectively. I know we'll never see that.

Regardless, we'll adjust to whatever Taldren decides. Either way, it doesn't harm gameplay...it just tweaks it.

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #55 on:** July 25, 2003, 11:27:20 pm »

True, true. I'm just thrilled to see Dave/Taldren do this for us

News:

Topic: Too many PPD damage volleys per DAC cycle (Read 6246 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

TarMinyatur

Corbomite

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Corbomite

Fahrenheit

Strafer

kiloton

Fahrenheit

Strafer

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

Fahrenheit

Max_iCOP

Rod O'neal

Max_iCOP

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Rod O'neal

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Rod O'neal

Tumulorum Fossor

3dot14

TarMinyatur

Rod O'neal

TarMinyatur

Corbomite

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Corbomite

Fahrenheit

Strafer

kiloton

Fahrenheit

Strafer

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

Fahrenheit

Max_iCOP

Rod O'neal

Max_iCOP

TarMinyatur

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Rod O'neal

FireSoul

TarMinyatur

Rod O'neal

Tumulorum Fossor

3dot14

TarMinyatur

Rod O'neal

Topic: Too many PPD damage volleys per DAC cycle (Read 6246 times)