Topic: New cloak not working as advertised

[Scipio_66]

Yeah, yeah, maybe it doesn't work exactly as Mr. Ferrel intended.  But you know what?  It works so much better than it used to, and so much closer to SFB standard rules than it used to, that I'm not currently inclined to gripe about it.

I'm having so much fun watching a real cloak at work that I can't be bothered.  Now if Dave feels irked that it isn't quite what he intended and decides to make it match what he announced, that's all well and good.  I'll be glad.  But I'm not going to let this glitch annoy me right now.  I'm one happy Gorn...... errr I mean Rom..... errrrr I mean player.

Now I've got to go master the art of engaging these dastardly improved Roms.  (Yeah, yeah, little pointy-eared freak.  Cloak and ditch my plasma.  Let me get a little closer...... just a little closer....... <evil laughter> )

Thanks, Dave!    Very nice work indeed.



======

3dot 14:

In SFB, there were advanced optional rules that let you use hidden cloak if you and your opponent wanted to experiment with it.  It required a very honest opponent, or a moderator.  As I recall (been years since I used hidden cloak):

1) The cloaked ship was removed from the board, and it's location was kept track of secretly
2) 4 times a turn the enemy could ask for range and bearing
3) The enemy could fire whenever it wanted, but damage was kept secret.
4) The cloaked ship recieved a MASSIVE boost in BPV.
5) Everybody except the Rom got very, very bored.

Yeah, I was usually the Rom.  People (including me) have much more fun now that I use standard rules.  That doesn't mean it wasn't fun for specific scenarios, it was, but for general use I find (IMHO) that standard rules are more fun for everyone.  As with all opinions, your mileage may vary.

-S'Cipio

[Lepton1]

No one is griping. We are merely making statement of facts and my own limited testing w/ regular photon torps seems to confirm his results. And I am just going to say it.  Here goes. Prepare to flame me.  Why didn't the beta testers catch this???  Seems logical to test something like this.  If Tar et al.  can do it in a couple of hours I assume or even a few hours, why not the beta testers??  Look I love this new patch, so don't get me wrong.  I am very excited about it and it is truely fantastic that the support has continued so long for this game.  Kudos and thanks to Dave and the beta testers, but this should have been easily caught either in the code during testing or in the announcement to characterize correctly how the cloak is working.  That simple.

[Cleaven]

Quite right, I'm happy as it is, but I do like to know what the numbers are. If it's a mistake then that's cool (mistakes? in programming? never!) but it would be nice to know.  

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:
Is this such a big deal?

...Personally, I am inclined to simply alter the readme.txt to match the current situation.

Agreed.

If the readme said that Deep Scan improved photon hit% by 33% wouldn't one expect to see that in the game?

I just want accurate documentation. Taldren can design their game as they wish. I only ask that they don't give us misinformation.  

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:
sorry renegade, i completely disagree with that statment about tar. his post only proves no good deed goes unpunished.

 dave has mentioned in different threads that it is an approximatioin of the sfb rule set - not exact.

so play the game and enjoy it. dave/taldren didnt have to do anything, but they decided to. i think there would be a little bit of a thank you. - as there is from many including your self (i dont expact any from tar).

play it. enjoy it. live it.  

Nanner, am I supposed to assume that the readme is false? If I see a cloak chart in text, I expect to see it mechanically...sheesh.  

[FireSoul]

Considering that the patch was released on Thursday, and this post was done at 7:30pm PST on a Friday night.. it's not surprising that nothing has happened yet.

I think the best thing to do is to wait for a bit through next week. If they want to fix it, they can... and it's all up to them.
-- Luc

[Rod O'neal]

I'm a bit taken back by some of the negative comments directed at Tar here. All he did was find a bug and report it.  

[Toasty0]

Nanner,

Always with the negative waves Moriarty! Always with the negative waves.

Woof Woof!!

Best,
Jerry  

[David Ferrell]

It is a little sad that this (apparently) happend, but it's not a
big deal. The cloak is still much better than before. In fact FireSoul had a
valid opinion that having this reduction along with the ECM bonus was
too much.

This (if true) was a mistake made by me. It is not the end of the world
or even the end of SFC. If someone is always a glass half-empty guy
about this, that is their problem.

Why no response till now?  This was first posted Friday night, I still
haven't had a chance to check it yet and yesterday I spent a wonderful
day with my daughter at Comic Con in San Diego (thank you for asking).

Thanks,

Dave
   

[David Ferrell]

I didn't see Jinxx.  Comic Con is HUGE!  Probably the biggest Con
I have ever been to (maybe World Con in the 1980's?).  There were
probably tens of thousands of people there.

My daughter got pictures with Maurice LaMarche (voice of the Brain),
Rob Paulson (voice of Pinky) and John DiMaggio (voice of Bender).  A
very cool day!

Thanks,

Dave  

[Strafer]

Quote:
... In fact Strafer had a
valid opinion ...    

*snicker* this is the second time you mistake FireSoul and myself.

[David Ferrell]

Sh... I mean shoot.  Your right of course.  FireSoul had a valid opinion,
Strafer *never* has a valid opinion.

Thanks,

Dave  

[FireSoul]

ROFL!  

[Sethan]

- Cloak was changed - this is good, as cloak was rarely useful before.

- Change was toward SFB - this is a good start, as SFB was fairly balanced where many things are concerned.

- Change didn't go as far as intended - this may be good, as one of the cloak features of old (ECM effects) might have made cloak too powerful if the change had gone all the way (it may be too powerful even now, haven't had the chance to test it yet - all my free playing time is going to LB4).

Overall - a good thing.  The bug needed to be pointed out, and it was.  I look forward to trying out the new cloak.



 

[Tumulorum Fossor]

Echoing Sethan.  'Bug' needed to be reported.  Good thing that it is.

Does 'bug' NEED to be 'fixed'?  I dunno.  Good reason to expect NOT.  If it's an easy fix, I'd welcome it, but current SFC cloak is SO MUCH BETTER that I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.  And I'm so thrilled over the support from Dave Ferrell (whom I hope is enjoying Comic Con... How do those Kingdom Come action figures look?) and the testers for this patch in the FIRST PLACE that I tread VERY carefully in this area because I do not want us, as a community, to come off as ingrates and not appreciative of just how remarkable the latest patch is.

If this is the worst thing about this patch, consider us all lucky.

And I do agree that no one should get their head torn off for simply REPORTING the existence of the cloaking "alternative method of damage calculation" (I hesitate at this point to continue calling it a 'bug').  That's a legitimate topic and effects game tactics.  Indeed, if no 'fix' arrives, I would be happy simply knowing exactly WHAT the probabilities are of damage with the cloak on, just for the sake of tactics.

I'd just urge all my fellow SFC OPer's to, when reporting bugs after this latest patch, and there will ALWAYS be more bugs, to be extremely diplomatic about it as it is remarkable that we have a game that is old, has a rabid fan base, AND devoted developers.  Let's not screw up whatever amazing cosmic karmic resonance that was needed for this to occur.

Anyhow, based on TarMinyatar's evaluation, are we reasonably sure that what is happening is 67% full damage, 33% half damage?

-TF

[FireSoul]

Yes, but Tar also mentioned that the weapons are doing effective range damage, not true range damage (I didn't realize that either during testing). Also, ECM can be used at the same time as the protection (which isn't supposed to happen).

.. wow.. bugs that cancel each other out.

[TarMinyatur]

This bug is a big deal if your opponent tends to have an abundance of  Phaser-1's and Photons. These two weapons benefit the most from this weak cloak chart. On the other hand, Disruptors and Hellbores are already penalized for attenuated damage. Adding the documented cloak chart to them would clearly be unfair. You could do 1 point of damage with an overloaded Dizzy or 4 points with an overloaded Hellbore. That's pathetic. Cripes, you do more damage to yourself in feedback!

Speaking hypothetically here...can the true range be used to calculate the initial damage for Disruptors and Hellbores against cloaked ships (i.e. the SFB method)? It would seem to solve the double-whammy that would occur with implementing the documented cloak chart. Since feedback already works on true range in SFC, one would think the code could use true range with a IsTargetCloaked() check when calculating damage after using the effective range for determining hit%.

Anyways, the Ph-1 is what really kills cloaked ships in SFC. It is still 83% as effective as it was. This is where an R*2 + 6 tweak would come in handy.

Regardless, thanks for looking into the cloak. It will be used more often which I think everyone will agree is a good thing.

-

Edited for an inaccurate claim.

[SPQR Drall]

First off,

Thanks for the effort from everyone involved.  Taldren did not have to do this.  Kudos!

For the bug, reporting it is ok.  The bug is not the end of the world.  As a Rom I'll take what I can

Now, there is one question that I've been trying to figure out since the specs of the patch came out.  I never posted it not too sound ungrateful, but then again, I'd like to understand it at some point.

The decision I don't understand is to shorten the flash cube time.  I have been playing Rom a long time and I am a PvP kinda guy.  The reason I never use the cloak in PvP is the flash cube.  Reducing the time of the flash cube doesn't help in any way since the tractor starts instantly.  So, I will be able to use the cloak at a distance to shake out drones, but against players I still have the same Achiles heel.  For the last 2 years I always thought, "damn, it they take away the flash cube, then I can use the cloak in PvP.  I think I still can't.

Did I miss anything?  Am I wrong?

I will go test this on GSA with fellow Roms, but I am pretty sure that a guy dropping speed because he engages the cloak that can still be flashcubed will not live long and prosper.

I am really curious to understand the rationale here.  Do not get me wrong, I appreciate the added benefits, but I was ok against AI already but I did hurt against players.  I think it will not chnage that a lot.  On PvP testing, did you guys really found that the Roms relying on cloak strategies were now more dangerous?

Again, I am happy about the improvements and I am sure the X-ships will benefit a lot.  I just would like to get this one.

Again, thanks for the patch!


SPQR Drall

P.S. Yes Nanner, I know...again I appreciate the patch, I am not petitioning for a change I just want to understand.
P.P.S Saved you a post

[SPQR Renegade001]

Flash & Grab will still be a problem for us, but little more so than when out from under cloak. The tractor can still be countered with repel trac or a WW, and ECM will still effect the D-fire weapons. In our favor with the new patch, is that the cloak can be fully engaged while were trying to break the tractor, and only the anchoring ship benifits from the anchor. Other ships still fail their target locks.

[David Ferrell]

Confirmed.  
Actual chart:
66.7% does 100% damage.
33.3% does 50% damage.

Thanks,

Dave