Topic: A funny thing happened on the way to......

[Tulmahk]

I agree.

But it hurts to agree because I like Taldren.

Is EF2 truly 100% bug free?  No, of course not.  But does it have far fewer bugs than SFC3/2/OP/1?  You bet.

If your favorite developer releases shoddy product, you as a paying customer have every right to call them on it.  And when you see other developers nailing the quality thing with great efficiency, you know it is possible to achieve.  There is no excuse.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  The next Star Trek starship combat sim needs to come from a different producer and developer.  

[Dash Jones]

Is EF2 stinky compared to EF1?  Yes.

Of course this is personal opinion.

Of course you have to understand...I didn't like EF1 that much in the first place...preferring fps games such as UT2003 and such junk.  I'd take an SFC game over an EF game any day of the week.  Glad to know someone is enjoying it though.  Got to about the 4th level and couldn't take it anymore...put it down...and played something else.

SFC to me is much more fun, enjoyable, and original.

My personal opinion of course.

[Mr. Hypergol]

This is just my opinion, but I think the level of complexity involved with programming SFC (especially SFC1 and 2/OP) is much higher than that required for a FPS like EF2.  Statistically a game like SFC should be much more buggy.  The amount of data being crunched by SFC is immense compared to a FPS.

Having played the board game Star Fleet Battles over the last 20 years I realized many years ago what a task it would be to computerize that game.  It's daunting.  Comparing the programming required of EF2 to SFC is not fair.....IMHO.  

[Vysander]

just not worth it

[Cleaven]

I would be asking how much of the game engine was already written beforehand, and how much new technology there is in the game. My experience with most games (SFC-TNG included) is that they seem to work well straight out of the box, as you learn to play single player missions or campaigns, but as you learn more about a game and go online or head to head you realise that there are problems with in-game systems not working as they should, and dealing with server bugs.

I wonder how many fixes that they have been through with the various games using the Quake 3 engine.

So I am not surprised that Elite Force appears better, because these days if you can't make a FPS (based on an existing engine) work seemingly trouble-free straight out of the box then you really have a problem.


   

[Sorok]

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.  My original post referred to other games besides EF.  

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

Quote:
 Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. My original post referred to other games besides EF.  

Sorok, my opinion of the others would be the same.  There's a lot more being crunched in SFC.  Armada might be the most complicated of the others but I don't think it's as difficult to program as SFC.

Thanks for the lecture V, I was mostly thinking of SFC1 and 2/OP although SFC3 is probably complex too........I'm still unconvinced.  But hey, what do I know.....I'm just a rocket scientist not a programmer.

It's just my opinion that SFC programming has to be pretty complex based on what I know about the "phone book" sized SFB rulebooks I own.  

[Dash Jones]

Quote:
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.  My original post referred to other games besides EF.  

You were good at pointing out some of the good quality...until you pointed this out.  Activision typically has good Q&A in my opinion...some of the best.  Despite what people say...I still think SFC3 was relatively unbuggy (I still don't know how people survived NWN, RoN, and other buggy releases that crash, break, and literally will not run on machines they should) compared to some games out there...some of them actually pretty popular (as shown in some parenthesis).

That stated, you DO know Armada had all sorts of majorly huge problems when it was released...luckily 1.1 came...and eventually 1.2...but it took dang long enough.  You gotta be daft to include that in your lists of games which had more solid of a release than SFC 3.

Up until that point...you were doing good, and I wasn't contesting your claims that EF2 or EF1 was less buggy...just saying that for me...they stink compared to other FPS games.  Heck...Unreal 2 isn't really supposed to be all that great...and now that I'm playing it instead of EF2...let's just say...EF2 reeks of people trying to copy an FPS on an engine that they borrowed to put a mod over.  Unreal 2 is so professionally done compared to EF2...even if it might be slightly buggier...that EF2 practically reeks of being an overdramatized mod from amateurs.

However...I love Activision overall...so I can't really stick it to them...I just don't really care for the EF series of FPS.  I think there are much better and more original FPS out there.  Currently I am loving Unreal 2.  Return to Wolfie wasn't one I particularly liked...but I liked it a heck better than EF...and I loved the MP if nothing else (which I think Mad Doc makers of the Armada series had a hand with in the free expansion).  Despite complaints against them...I still think Activision is one of the better game companies out there.  They actually pay attention to their Q&A typically...which results in solid releases.  SFC3 was a lot more solid than most releases in the past year.  In fact...if you note...all the games that were solidly released were done by Activision no less.  They made another FPS that was in the similar vein of the EF series but which I adored a heck of a lot more.  Jedi Knight.  Maybe I'm just not a Trekkie at heart to the point that I will love anything trek...and maybe I love Star Wars waaaay too much.  Simply put...can't stand EF2, which was my point.  I tried...I really did.  I did it for Activision.  I then found other things to do.  Different tastes for different games eh?

I do think it's funny that you try to slam Taldren (which I love even more than Activision...if you can believe it), and Activision at the same time.  They may have had their differences...but you know...I think Taldren has some of the most original minds in the industry right now...and Activision has some of the best tech know how.  You do know Activision released all the other games you listed...right?

You also know that Taldren has religiously patched any game they can when they're allowed (which should say something about SFC3 not having an official patch yet...though who knows why that may be) with multiple patches...not just fixing hardware and computer issues...but working on then...calls by fans for certain balances to be done...going up and beyond the call of duty.  I'd say perhaps only Blizzard beats them in long term support at this point.

[Vysander]

just.. not.. worth it

[Sorok]

Points well made, DJ.

Now, I don't claim to know much about anything, but here's what I do know....

Of ALL the games I've ever bought/played, SFC3 is FAR AND AWAY the buggiest piece of software I've ever witnessed.  Sure all other softwares have bugs.  But watching a motion video skipping a frame is totally different from Hangups, Crashes, and forced reboots.

We can all go on and on about how difficult and complex code is from one game to another, but at the end of the day all you you can do is make excuses for a product that should have never escaped from Q&A.  I won't deny the potential greatness of the SFC series, but I also won't deny the prolongued life of the "ON" button on my PC which I've had to hold down for an outstanding accumulation of minutes in order to restart my system.

Bottom line, reboot does not equal fun. And, as I originally stated,  playing another game besides SFC3 has simply reminded me of how fun gaming can actually be when you're playing instead of swearing.  

[Dash Jones]

Point well made on your part about fun.

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

Quote:
 just.. not.. worth it  

I disagree.....you need to back up what you're saying here.  Just saying "just not worth it" and not providing any solid facts will not cut it buddy!!!  Can you be more specific about what you mean by the words "worth" and "it".  Right off the bat I see that "it" has a pronoun reference problem.  I mean c'mon....what IS "it".  

[grave]

you know im not sure about everyone else but i bought this game on a pre-order and i think i might be the only one here that plays this game on a system with LESS yes i say LESS than the system minuim requirments.. not just processer (PIII 350) but vidio card as well as ram. and i have only expirenced a few problems with the game. and nothing i couldint work around .. cept being slow, but then if i had a better puter.... so i think people should just thank them (the programmers) for even makeing a new SFC game. they didnt HAVE to but did. so here are my 2 cents worth. if you dont like the game dont play it and quit bitching. if you do like the game and enjoy it then lets play it and have fun. all this whining and grying makes me want to remove my name from this and several other forms cause i get tird of reading the same bitch over and over.
well hope i dont offend anyone,
mouvar

[Vysander]

Quote:
 

Quote:
 just.. not.. worth it  

I disagree.....you need to back up what you're saying here.  Just saying "just not worth it" and not providing any solid facts will not cut it buddy!!!  Can you be more specific about what you mean by the words "worth" and "it".  Right off the bat I see that "it" has a pronoun reference problem.  I mean c'mon....what IS "it".    

Salient features of what I deleted

Think about SFB... it's not that complicated, the rules are made to allow humans to model starship combat simply (anyways it pales in comparison to Advanced Squad Leader)

You can't model a flight sim or an FPS with dice rolls and charts as easily.

Likewise, programming FPS/Flight sim immensely more difficult

In addition, you can only do what SFC allows you to.  Think of the multiple mods for FPS's and what imaginative people have done with the physics engines... they give you a world to do with nearly anything you want to try... It's a working world, not a limited one like SFC.  Example being a rocket jump.. it was never an intended thing until Q3... programmers never intended on you doing that.. but their engine would let you.

*must stop before I rewrite very long post*

[Alexander1701]

  See, to draw another example, there's the mmorpg Shadowbane.

It was just as buggy as SFC out of the box. It's still fairly bad.

What makes it so special?

Weekly Patches. Every week you'll get a patch, and more bugs will be solved. It's good to know that if something's wrong, it'll be fixed.

Yes, Taldren is working on it, but when you don;t hear for so long you think 'backburner'.
Yes, Shadowbane has a monthly fee. They ALSO have 8 servers than can hold 1000 people each running 24-7.

I really wish that we could have lots and lots of little patches. At least it'd feel like things were getting done...

Alexander  

[Reverend]

It also feel nice to have a continuous space version of the game- not little dorky missions- I dont recall the TV show having a hex map or sitting around waiting for a mission.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
you know im not sure about everyone else but i bought this game on a pre-order and i think i might be the only one here that plays this game on a system with LESS yes i say LESS than the system minuim requirments.. not just processer (PIII 350) but vidio card as well as ram. and i have only expirenced a few problems with the game. and nothing i couldint work around .. cept being slow, but then if i had a better puter.... so i think people should just thank them (the programmers) for even makeing a new SFC game. they didnt HAVE to but did. so here are my 2 cents worth. if you dont like the game dont play it and quit bitching. if you do like the game and enjoy it then lets play it and have fun. all this whining and grying makes me want to remove my name from this and several other forms cause i get tird of reading the same bitch over and over.
well hope i dont offend anyone,
mouvar  

I believe I have less than the minimum RAM.

Most of the time the game runs fine (I do have problems occasionally, but they appear to be memory related ones)

MP works fine once I read the readme

[loc621]

I too was amazed with its smoothness, great game damded hard though, the oulse phaser section is nigh on imposible to do