Topic: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?

[Reverend]

That last post of mine was supposed to be funny- couldn't decide whether I should post it or not- the person reading it here while I wrote it got a big kick out of it..... if it ticked some of you off, I'm sorry... but I really do feel that way... If all we could get from liscensing is a ''GAW'', then I'll be happy to at least get something, I suppose. That's probrobly a big ''if'' too though....
 

[Sethan]

Quote:
I don't see how to resolve these two opinions, because they lead in oppposite directions. One gets you a cross between Armada 3 and Bridge Commander 2 (ughh) and the other gets you SFB/F&E on the computer, with dice and hexmaps. Clearly I favour the latter, but more importantly people need to recognise that these two things cannot co-exist in the one game because they are clearly two separate games. It's hard enough to build and sell one good PC game, but to build two and put them in the same box? Surely this is madness in a commercial arena? So let the people in charge of TNG make their follow-on to all the other TNG games. And let the SFC series continue to add components and rules from the board game in an effort to come closer to the original concept.

Got to agree with Toasty0, Cleaven.  SFC and SFC2 did resolve the two opinions - and fairly well.  Changes were made to make SFB's turn-based rules work in a real-time environment, and for the most part those changes work very well without hurting the game.  For the most part, that is because (IMO), for the board game rules that would not translate into a real-time game, Taldren looked at the intent of what the SFB rules were trying to accomplish, and then designed a system that retained the intent of the SFB rule, even if the SFC system actually operated completely differently.

There are a number of rules in SFB that make sense from an 'in game universe' standpoint, that are clunky and difficult precisely because the game is turn based.  Getting the same effect while changing the rule mechanics is something that Taldren did very well overall.

Even in an SFC2 based GaW, there is still room for Taldren to do more of that without hurting the flavor or balance of the game (and in fact, improving it).  The trick is in knowing where it is OK to modify, and where things need to be left alone.

As others have said, from an SFC2 base, the area that has the most room for improvement is the Dynaverse.  Scores of pages have been written about how the Dyna could be improved, and I won't repeat them here - but I am looking forward to seeing what Taldren does with the Dyna if we are able to get another SFC title.

[TheSatyr]

 One thing to keep in mind. Whoever the next publisher is that gets the Trek licenses may not have any interest in publishing SFC style games...and even if they do there is no guarantee that Taldren would be asked to develop it. SFC games are not the "Blockbuster" games publishers are looking for these days.

I consider GAW  to be a horse on life support. It's not quite a dead horse...but it's pretty close to being dead. Too many things have to happen for a GAW to be made.

As for the idea of an Expansion or patch to bring in andros and tholians...not real likely to ever happen. Who's going to pay Taldren to make either one? A patch would require new models,new artwork,new graphics...and they do have to pay people to create them.

An Expansion can only be done if they have a publisher willing to pay them to make one. Interplay might have been willing to to it,but they lost the licenses. Activision apparently doesn't even want an expansion to SFC3,so there is no way they'd pay for an expansion to a game by another publisher.

(And you know things are getting slow around here when the old Star Trek vs SFB arguements start up again.).

[David Ferrell]

Cpt. Chaos I suggest you use:

http://www.sfbonline.com/

or find someone to code what you want.  A direct translation of SFB on
the computer with "no compromises" would be a horrendous failure,
considering the amount of money required to complete a modern
software project of this scope and the number of potential customers (IMO).

Thanks,

Dave

Listen... do you smell something?

 

[Cpt. Chaos]

Thanks, Dave.

You have access to more marketing data than I do, so I assume you've at least looked at the 'total conversion' idea, and rejected it due to lack of a potential market.  You either trust that data or you don't.  Do you know what the total estimated size of the SFB market is?  Compared to, say total sales of EAW, are we talking a small fraction?  Or a larger fraction?  I'm curious what your numbers show...

If SFB online had a computer AI as an opponent, that would be great.  That would be very close to the dream.  I have no way to put a price tag on that sort of project, do you have a rough guess?


Chaos

[Tulwar]

I too have very little hope for SFC GAW.  It will be a cold day in Hades before Activision supports such a thing.  The suit against Viacom offers a faint glimmer of hope.  SFC2 was better than I believed possible.  Taldren made an excellent engine for it and polished until it gleamed!  Unfortunately, it was too successful, and someone had to stop or acquire it lest it be competion for their game system.  Maybe Activision has come to see that SFC only has a niche audience and finds the license to TOS to be nothing more than a liablity.  I doubt that's the case.  If Activision thinks that any enterprise would draw a single customer away from their products, they will do everything on earth to stop it.

Considdering the state of the license, I think Taldren should work on something Tadren can control the rights to.  Taldren put an increadable amount of value into SFC.  Whatever they work on, if left to their own devices, will definitely be worth having.    

[Scipio_66]

Quote:

Doomsday is an overgrown cancerous tumor, IMHO.  And the necessity to continue publishing new rules is what lead to that condition...  Doomsday was sold to us as IT.  The END.  The FINAL WORD.  It wasn't of course, just a new, and fabulously more complex jumping-off point for even more expansion.

Doomsday (Captain's Edition) wasn't marketed as an end to expansion.  It was marketed as the end to ADB's old practice of tinkering with the rules even when they weren't broken.  As gamers lobbied for "neat" rules tweaks, commander's edition SFB got full of errata (which wasn't really errata, since it wasn't correcting errors) to the point that unless you were very active in the community you could never be sure the rules hadn't changed since your last game or (especially) convention.

Doomsday was sold in 1991 with a pledge that "This is IT.  The game is now stable.  From now on we will fill loopholes and fix errors, but no more tinkering for the sake of tinkering."

ADB has kept their word on this pledge and the game has remained remarkably stable ever since.  Captain's Log magazine issues have often contained the phrase "Player X came up with a neat idea and in the old days we might have tried it out.  But given the new policy, we can't."

New products still come out, but that's as it should be, IMHO.  The SFB game covers from pre-Enterprise to well into TNG.  Given that large a time frame, it still has lots of room to grow.  Again, IMHO.  Obviously your milage varies.

-S'Cipio  

[olbuzzard]

To those of you who have differing opinions on what we are discussing ...  please understand I am not trying to be hard nosed and angry...   but we are trying to despirately get you to see another point of view.   Sometimes in order to serve the best interst of the overall community we have to make changes that may (or may not ) particularly suit our taste.  This is a game.  It's final out come will affect very little in light of eternal matters.  Therefore, making a few concessions that do genuinly benefit the game is not asking for too much.  (BTW...   for what ever it's worth ...  in the course of hashing this out perhaps we can come to some sort of realistic options ....  I would also hope you understand when this is over we are atleast on a speaking basis.  Maybe not best buds...  but we try to understand and help each other as best we can.  No grudges. OK !

Here is an example of somthing that I personally like very well.. ( but know it had to change)  X-Ships !!  Anyone who has been around me for very long knows of my fondness of the X-Class ships.  But...  if it helps matters continue to mover forward..  then they must be redesigned ....  toned down before reinstituting..(yeah  I know.. most of you think they are a joke any ways) But,  to a degree that is my point.  Many of us have differing opinions on ships, races to be utilized, game formats,  map sizes, GSA or Dynaversa formats and a host of other things.  Trying to find a common groud for all of is not going to be easy.  I never said it would.  BUT  I do believe that it is a MUST !!  If you want to find fault or pass judgement on me for that..  then so be it.  Guilty as charged.

Consider this ...  of all the copies of SFC-1, 2, OP and 3 that have been sold ...  of those how many still are on line...  and of those how many still hold to such a narrow, SFB only philisophy.  In reality the numbers continue to grow smaller and smaller.  That is not the sort of thing developers who will be willing to invest aprx 1/2 million or more want to see.

I will always maintain that what we are attempting to do is the best for everyone in a collective sense of the word.  There's got to be a way...  Please excuse me if we have been a bit rough around the edges in our discussion  (olbuzzards have a tendency to be that way some times.)   I guess that is why the name stuck as it did !!

AS ironic as this may sound...  please continue this thread.  But please try to let a crack of light in.

Thanks

[Cleaven]

I'm not saying that a follow on game to TNG should not be made, but I am saying that it should not be made and stuck in the same box with the GAW style expansion, with a button at start-up so that you can play SFC rules or TNG rules, with different Dynaverses (one F&E styled and the other open-space) etc. Put them in two separate boxes and sell them both for the same price. Just don't make any rubbish that will join the majority of ST titles in the play-once-and-never-again catagory.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Although I know the future isn't clear, most of us here hope for Galaxies at War.  I got SFC2 because it was Star Trek, not because it was Starfleet Battles.  I had never even heard of it.  I thought the game was great.  When I found out SFC3 was comming out, set in The Next Generation period, I was thrilled, as I had always liked TNG better.  

Using google, it didn't take me long to find Taldren's forums (I actually found Starfleet Universe first, and followed links to sfc3.net and taldren.com).  Unfortunately, a few days after I had found Taldren's forums (before I had registered, though) the forums were taken down due to somebody posting porn (I'm sure most of you remember it, so there is no need for me to get into it).  Anyway, for a liittle while, they wouldn't allow new members (which included me).  Finally, they quietly lifted the ban, and I was allowed to join.  Here I learned about SFB, and was convinced to try the Hydrans, Lyrans, Mirak, etc (which I never played because they weren't really Star Trek).

When SFC3 came out, it was a lot of fun.  However, the game wasn't as fun as SFC2 (nestalgia I guess).

OK, I kind of whent away from the point I was trying to make.  I had more fun playing in the SFB universe, but SFC3 did have some improvements I liked.  I've always believed that GaW should have features from both SFC2 and 3 (obviously aimed more towards 2, since that is the time period).  By features from SFC3, I don't mean "lack of features" (T-Bombs, Drones, etc), but actual features (I know reverse, and maybe officers, not sure, are part of SFB, so that's not what I'm talking about, but some features that were brand new and worked well)

[TheSatyr]

I think the biggest problem with SFC3 was the lack of variety. With a few more races it might have been competitive with EAW and OP.  

[NannerSlug]

*and* a *few* more ships. lol.. gotta have moocho more for me at least, anyhow.. i think it was more of a lack of ships/hulls than races..

i believe the core with that issue and a few others is detail, to put it simply. there are a few things i believe that could still be done in a patch for sfc3 that could add some detail and help out tremendously.. whether thats adding in a few more arcs or ships released by date (if they were to put in releasing ships by date then i would nearly have my dream trek game - cause you could do a tos-present mod)..

play wise, i think the weapons could be juiced a little more.. sure, heck, even add in a type of missile or so (might be interesting for tactical decisions - but note that none of the main races in star trek use missiles - i think the ferengi do - so i feel like they should be on the low end of the balance spectrum). i do miss t-bombs though.. i also think if the weapons were juiced just a bit more..

just a few thoughts.

[olbuzzard]

woooaahhhh   STOP THE PRESS,  HOLD THE PHONE CALLS, NOTIFY CENTRAL COMMAND, SOME BODY TAKE A PICTURE   !!!!  my son and I agree for the 5th time in a row this week.  

Can someone please check and make sure there is not an intruder using Nanners login eheheheheh  hahaha  hohohoho !!!  

this is definately a Kodak moment !!!

[TheSatyr]

I would have liked to have seen playable Cardassians and Ferengi,but I have a feeling that Taldren had too tight a schedule with SFC3 to put in more than 4 races.

The whole "you have to get the game out for Nemesis"  thing hurt alot.

SFC3 is a good game,but I think Taldren's hands "may" have been tied by what Activision (and Viacom) wanted.

(Just guesses on my part...but that's how it looks from where I'm sitting).

 

[Davey E]

I 1st bought SFC1 back in 99 and did,nt like it,
Problem was it seemed far to complicated for someone like me who liked to shoot things up (1st person shooters anyone)

I,d never heard of SFB,
I was however eagerly awaiting KA (Klingon Academy) with baited breath, It looked tremendous, and it was for about 4 weeks, Nice shiny ships and brilliant explosions etc - But that was it - It was strategically and tactically crap

I then bought SFC2 EAW and sort of liked it,
I did,nt really understand the complexities that went behind such a simulation (not a game IMHO)
Then i saw my 1st SFB material and that was it - HOOKED, In my ignorance i cried "Oh if i could only play this on the PC)  

When i realised i could - That was it - I fell in love with SFC, and everything to do with it (Yea, even the bugs  )
This to me is what makes ST real, If the televsion series had used this material (SFB) as a perameter to work off, Then ST combat would of been brilliant, and not the at best above average fire and hope its ok material that it is
I bought SFC OP and the love story continued - This is amazing i told my friends, and many of them went on to purchase the game,
I looked for a clan/team that would enable me to takle part in a full scale scenario (eg: General War) We call ours the VG (Virtual Galaxy) and its great, I also thought the Dynaverse was very special as well

In my 2 years now in STOC (Starfleet Tactical Operation Command) or TOC for short,
I have realised now what a fantastic simulation the SFC series is and have spent many a late hour playing with my USA and european buddies etc

When SFC 3 came out, i like most people waited with baited breath,
When it was released and i played it for the 1st tiem,  i was confused, There seemed nothing to base the movement, turn rates etc, It seemed like an unfinished product - More like a shoot em up with big spaceships, The more and more i played it, the more and more bored i became,
I found the combat sterile and uninspiring compared to SFC EAW and OP, and thus deleted it off my hard drive - What a dissapointment  

IMHO,
SFC is SFB or it don,t work
You can call SFC TNG what you want, but its not a patch (and you ain,t even got one of those yet  ) on 1 & 2

Look at the numbers in the Gamespy lobby and se how many are on EAW compered to SFC3 now,
1 & 2 will be played a long time after SFC3 is dead,

I bought SFC3 because i wanted to help Taldren in the long run as they are the only chance we have of SFC GAW, However

I will NOT buy another SFC type of game that is not SFB based  

Thats my Opinion - I take it i am entitled to it  


   

[RazalYllib]

Back on topic...

My take on the whole ST license thing was decided some time ago.

(btw 1984 was a good year for SFB)

When the first movies were made and the TNG series on the air,
I thought it was a shame that ADB material didnt make in.

(Imagine the replacement of the TNG background with the ADB material- Picard piloting CA at the beginning of
the General War before the Klingons invade, which happens at the end of Season #3
Season #4 ending the Romulan Invasion, Heck they could even be Present in Operation Calvery, or present
when the Macarthur crashes into to Remus...ah, what could have been)

The ADB Star Fleet Universe, is a unique version of the ST universe
and is a much more interesting place.
It should be kept pure and uncorrupted, and I hope this does not mean that
the movies and series would impact on indepedent ADB universe that
just happens to have the name Star Trek.

I belive that a legal point could be made, only by ADB btw, that all materials
produced by ADB under the name SFB,
is an original work eligiable for
award of  a derivitive copyright.

SFB material is based soley on some not all material from TOS, and the work done by Franz Joseph
Designs.  ADB bought the rights for that material-no doubt there, which they still have, and then developed
and invented original material from that point on.  This occurred before the 1st ST movie was even contemplated.

You can look at as two independent time lines, the only simularities are a few names here and there; Taken
as a whole, there are more differences than simularitys.  All ADB has to do is convince a Judge.

Then, the GAW folks will be in a much better position to get their hearts desire as far as licenseing issues are
concerned.  Someone is bound to finance it.  

I dont mind the "Official Star Trek Universe", it just seems a little bland for my tastes.
SFC3 is not all that bad, bit arcadey for my personal preferances, but overall a good job
especially the innate flexibilty in re: to player mods.
But I prefer OP.

I hope the legal wranglings do not impact on the potential for GAW should someone with the cash to pay for its developement and distribution costs comes forth out of the wilderness.  They would probably have to grovel
and cough up unnessarry cash if they were not affiliated with Viacom and/or Activision.  Which is quite a shame.

Majority of the  ST fans I have encountered over the years have never heard of a Hydran or Lyran or Kzinti (cept for the Niven Fans)  I related a couple storys, showed off a captains log with some good fiction in it.  Like the one with the Klingon Vandel...been awhile.  They were pleasantly surprised at how rich and detailed this little indepedent ST universe was.

If ADB had full rights to what I feel is their original material, despite was Viacom says, it would a good thing for all involved.



 

[David Ferrell]

Post deleted by David Ferrell

[Mr. Hypergol]

Blasphemy!!!!!..........Guards!!!........Guards!!!!!.......silence that man!!!!!  

[Rod O'neal]

Dear Dave,
Thanks for enlightening us on this a bit. I appreciate hearing from someone who has a better understanding on the two sides of the licensing argument between ADB and Paramount. Now if we could get the whole PC game licensing situation for Trek settled quickly that would be wonderful. I hope that when you used past tense to describe your love for SFB it wasn't intentional. I'm one of those still holding on to the thinnest of straws for a continuation of the SFB theme from Taldren.  

BTW, the support that you at Taldren have continued to show us is commendable and appreciated beyond any words that I can find. Thanks again for the OP patch, and everything else you all have done.  

[olbuzzard]

I kinda like the idea of the X-phasrs and G phasers Nanner...  Not all of the stuff found on all X-ships ...  as we stated before There was just too much opposition to them over all  (especially some of the XCA classed ships.

Over I agee with the idea of a class of ship that has access to some of the srtonger weapons between TOS and TNG.  Once you get to TNG I think it is a good idea to be able to have a limited carry over from the past genereations as a type of refit that is still being used.

Heck we do that in RW in the Air Force and Naval aircraft.  We just now retired the Battleship Missouri a few years ago.  Soooo in my estimation it would not be unlikely to take some of the more popular ships and use them as a refit class ship (like the CLC for example) ...  just another thought..  (BTW..  there are some Klingon, Rommie and other classics that would be available as well.  That was just one example that I'm personally acquainted with)

As well ...  returning to more that 4 races is a good idea.   Klingon, Romulan, ISC, Gorn (just for example) with some from TNG woukld help move things in the right direction as well.