Topic: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?  (Read 23849 times)

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Sethan

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2003, 05:10:07 pm »
Quote:

Chaos, I haven't seen Battlecruiiser 3000.... what does it have that SFC doesn't, no offense?




A: Derek Smart.

A better question is "What does SFC have that BC3k doesn't?"

A: Working code.

Seriously, BC3k was supposed to have the kind of persistent universe you are talking about.

Quote:

Hope I haven't made Sethan too mad, though he was pretty harsh on me- sokay, I'm adamant about my wishes too.
Where can we go from here? Petition the next licensee? Make us a real game this time- GAW, EAW, whatever, just make us a finished game for Pete's sake.  




I'm not mad - I rarely get emotionally involved in these discussions.  Sorry if I was harsh on you.

I actually have no objection to the persistent and contigouous universe idea as a part of SFC.  I particularly like the idea of being able to join a battle in progress.  I DO have an objection to tossing out the part of the game that works, in favor of trying something different, just to try something different.

I don't think SFC3's problem is the lack of a persistent universe - none of the other SFC games have had one.  If you want to find out why it didn't do as well as the others in the long term, you need to look at the differences between SFC3 and SFC2.

Tumulorum Fossor

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2003, 08:22:51 pm »
Bringing back the thread at this point to something RESEMBLING the original topic:

The Star Trek licensing debacle will take a long time to sort out.  A LONG time.  The ripple effects abound.  For the most part, the curse of the Star Trek games continue because, IMHO, the programming budgets and the licensing budgets don't have enough room to accommodate one another.  In other words, in order for ANY software publisher to get the rights to the collective ST universe, they have to sink in mega $.  These mega $ get yanked from the programming budget.  Furthermore, there immediately is placed on the programmers a TREMENDOUS amount of pressure to make a game that will generate rapid and large sales.  Why? Because so much money was sunk into the license that a game without broad-based appeal is (perceived as) a lost cause: the publishers will NEVER realize their initial investment.  SFC3 is a perfect example of this: Activision secures the rights to ST, and wants a winner.  They get Taldren for SFC, given that SFC2 was such a success, but they tell Taldren to 'de-geek' it.

Make it more palatable to the general public.

Taldren protests, but, hey, who's paying the bills?  Activision.  The suits say it needs to be dumbed down, so Taldren does what it can to still leave some appeal to the SFBer, but for the most part, hope that the loyalties to SFC outweigh the loyalties to SFB for the hardcore old school SFC2ers.  And gamble that the software sales by John Q. Public will totally overwhelm the lost sales from the old-schoolers who are not hip to SFC3.  That's the hand they got dealt and they played it the only way they could play it, frankly.

But SFC3s disappointing sales will serve unfortunately as ammo for the naysayers in ANY software publishing house.  They will say that a hardcore gamers game in a Star Trek universe won't sell.  They'll have this position despite the fact that, IMHO, SFC3 tanked precisely because it ALIENATED the hardcore gamers in the first place in the hopes of getting wider appeal.  I do not have faith in neither Activision nor Paramount to have the insight to realize that the Star Trek license just can't carry a poorly balanced game.  Never has, never will.

On the other hand, a well-balanced game without the license CAN hold its own.  Not a MEGA success, but possibly hold its own.  But it is a risk.

The sure-fire success, IMHO, is the synergy realized when the ST license happens to be on a well-balanced game.

But like I said, the suits will NOT see it that way.

So, IMHO, the best we can hope for is either:

Long-term Scenario 1: Orion PIrates gets old, but ages tremendously gracesfully due to the staunch support of the hardcore gamers who don't get a comparable product for the foreseeable future.  Eventually, either OP goes open source or someone on their own figures out enough to effectively unlock it for heavy modding, and all kinds of stuff happens.  This is like the 5 year plan.  10 years down the road, some gaming company realizes that this fricking game is STILL around after all these years and decides to update it to 2014 standards.  By then, the Trek licensing snafus have run their course and publishers are more willing to take "chances" on 'niche' games that trade style for substance. Fun, fun fun.

Long-term Scenario 2: Taldren, or some other company, gets in bed with ADB which licenses out SFB but removes all Trek references.  They listen to the customers and leave the graphics/UI code moddable enough that pesky members of the gaming community Star-Trekkify the game on their own, without Paramount's official blessing.  Working against this: ADB inherently has an incentive to NOT allow a game to be TOO moddable and eat into their boardgame sales.  Also Paramount might be total douchebags and intervene on third party modders of the StarTrekless SFC.  But I see that as rather difficult to control.


Anyhow, that's how I see it.

Note there is no "Short-term Scenario."  Because simply speaking I don't see anything remarkable happening in the short-term (except for FireSoul's tremendous support for OP, and the release of the highly-anticipated OP Dynaverse stability patch!).

Thanks,

TF

Magnum357

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2003, 09:42:37 pm »
Ok, hold on people... let me get this straight.  After reading all this thread-fighting for about a half an hour, Scipio_66  informs us that the reason why ADB never have built a Computer board game of SFB is because Paramount comes in and says "that their copy right protection of SFB doens't protect you if make it for the computer"?  Am I right on this understanding?  Well, all I can say is Paramount has been using smoke and mirrors to scare ADB into thinking this.  I'm pretty sure that Paramount would never win a court case if ADB actually made their own computer game.  For what basis could Paramount sue ADB for violating the Star Trek Licence?   Trust me guys, this is all just scare tactics on Paramonts part.  Just got to this website for copyright laws and you will understand what I mean....

http://www.copyright.gov/

Now, back to what Tumulorum Fossor was talking about.  I completely agree with his theories about all this crap happening.  That is why I suggested that Taldren just work a deal with ADB and forget a deal with Paramont.  As I have stated above, I find it unlikely that Paramont would win this legal battle under copyright laws so Taldren and ADB really should not worry about this.  I'm also certain that ADB would make for a much more afordable contract negotiation then Paramounts Multi-million dollar Trek License.  I think both ADB and Taldren could benefit from this deal greatly.  

As for Activision, hey what can I see, it just shows you how greedy that corperation really is.  They made this deal with Taldren because they thought they could make money hand over fist!  They deserved what they got in my opinion.  I hope Taldren considers my theory and just let Activision and Paramont duke it out while they try to make a good SFB based game.

Now Reverend, I can understand why you think SFB is out of style.  It is a rather old game and was made not too long after I was born, but it has a proven Navel Combat system and a very loyal set of fans (myself included).  I like SFC3 too, but so far from what I have seen of this Activision/Viacom situation, I think another SFC TNG title is slim to none.  But as I stated before, a lot of SFC3 elements could be added to a SFC GAW.  Hidden Cloaks, Warping (a 1 minute delay as stated in SFB rules), and making weapons modable could be a few of many features that could make GAW not only a SFB game but a TNG game if someone wanted too.

Reverend

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2003, 11:24:41 pm »
Well, thats all I really was hopping about anyhow... persistent universe (in Sethan's more articulate terms) would be pretty snazzy also... I have had my dues paid with SFB; I still have my pewter ships even (at $10+ apiece). If SFC2OP could be modded with SFC3 movemet characteristics, it'd make things a lot more easier to handle...
with the copyright laws as they stand, I don't see much more changing in the future either. All we can do I suppose is hope some company realizes the small but trusty market we as ST/SFB fans provide, and attempt to cash in on it again.  Wish w could organize some sort of polite protest and get some work done... I suspect it wouldn't be exactly what any of us hoped for, but some work is better than none.  

Rod O'neal

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2003, 11:46:39 pm »
Quote:

Ok, hold on people... let me get this straight.  After reading all this thread-fighting for about a half an hour, Scipio_66  informs us that the reason why ADB never have built a Computer board game of SFB is because Paramount comes in and says "that their copy right protection of SFB doens't protect you if make it for the computer"?  Am I right on this understanding?  Well, all I can say is Paramount has been using smoke and mirrors to scare ADB into thinking this.  I'm pretty sure that Paramount would never win a court case if ADB actually made their own computer game.  For what basis could Paramount sue ADB for violating the Star Trek Licence?   Trust me guys, this is all just scare tactics on Paramonts part.  Just got to this website for copyright laws and you will understand what I mean....

http://www.copyright.gov/






ADB just believes that even if somehow they could afford the court fight with Paramount's lawyers, They're supposed to have a lot of them   , that the income from the computer game, or even expanding SFB to other eras, wouldn't justify the expense. I read a post by SVC where he stated that not only did ADB have the legal right to produce a computer game, that the licensing of different eras didn't even apply to there license with Paramount.
Remember, when they got their license Trek was dead and gone. A failed TV series. Nothing more.    

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2003, 12:02:13 am »
 
Quote:

 I'm pretty sure that Paramount would never win a court case if ADB actually made their own computer game.  




Even if Paramount has a weak case it would still cost ADB a lot of money in legal fees to defend themselves.  It's money they probably can't spare.  I'm sure the profit margins for ADB products are tight.  ADB does well because Steven V. Cole runs a tight ship.  They probably don't have the kind of money needed to take on Paramount.

Paramount tolerates ADB because ADB behaves itself.  Paramount could probably sweep ADB away if they became a real problem for Paramount and started challenging them.  It's a fine line for ADB to walk.

Lastly, Erik Bethke said it takes a lot of money to produce and distribute computer games.  Erik was looking for a way that Taldren could self publish their own games eventually, but he said it would be difficult to do until they got a couple of "hits" under their belt and started getting some solid royalties income rolling in.

If Taldren is having trouble self-publishing with all of their programmming and business talent fine tuned for making computer games, then ADB would find it nearly impossible to make their own computer games because they don't have the programming resources required.

However, if Taldren and ADB were to pool their resources perhaps that would be enough for Taldren and ADB to jointly publish an "SFB total conversion of OP"?  In this kind of relationship ADB would provide the concept material and Taldren would create the programming to implement it.  The development costs shouldn't be anywhere close to as high as a totally new game because the OP engine is already developed.....it would just have to be enhanced and upgraded.  With resources from both Taldren and ADB combined the two companies should be able to pay the costs of packaging and distribution that are normally covered by a separate publisher.  If development costs were kept down, even if the game sold fewer units than previous SFC games, they could still turn a profit.  This game would not carry the name SFC, but would be marketed as actual SFB material.

Just some ideas.  It would be nice if Erik would comment on these ideas.  

Tulwar

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2003, 01:02:30 am »
As far as I know ADB and Taldren work quite closely together.  The problem is, Viacom has armies of lawyers to make sure that no one makes a dime off ST without paying them handsomly.  I agree that Viacom only tolerates SFB, because ADB behaves itself.  The fact they bought the rights to material in ST is only a trivial matter.

Activision on the other hand, they bought high and are selling low.  As long as any ST program is in production, they don't have a leg to stand on in court.  Even if there wasn't, Activision would be in a difficult legal position.  I hope Viacom eats them for breakfast!  They deserve it.  

David Ferrell

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2003, 12:06:10 pm »
SFC3 did not have disappointing sales.

Thanks,

Dave  

Aversham

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2003, 12:17:32 pm »
Quote:

SFC3 did not have disappointing sales.

Thanks,

Dave  




Nope, just disappointed customers.

Sorry Dave, nothing personal, but a lot of us bought that game on the assumption it would still be SFB based; we felt betrayed. (Though our faith in Taldren has been shaken, we still hold out hope...)  

Reverend

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2003, 12:58:27 pm »
No, better yet, a lot more of us were expecting it to not just turn in one diection and stop, but have a consistent universe attached to it. Thanks for the one line reply, Dave!! Why don't you speculate on this further, instead of just being flippant. Tell us to shut- up, give an opionion, or state a fact with numbers...  don't hold out on us.  

NannerSlug

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2003, 01:01:53 pm »
if you bought sfc3 and felt like it was going to be another incarnation - then you might not have done the proper research. it was well known for a very, very long time that they were going away from the sfb rule set for sfc3.

that said, there are many folks who like (some even love) sfc3, and whos only dissappointment was the lack of an official patch (or how long it took to get the beta patch out due to red tape) to fix simple issues like the anticloak cheat/follow bug.. there are a few that will be nice when they get squashed (like the out of sync/loading bug) or leaving a mission and for what ever reason not getting your full prestiege.

that doesnt make the game perfect. far from it. there could be much more detail put into the game - ranging from specific hard point mass restrictions to the ability to manage power more to more ships.. (oh yeah - tbombs. heh) however, it doesnt mean its a POS like a few people think it is (simply because it doesnt use the sfb rule set).

so to say there are disappointed customers isnt exactly telling the whole story. there might be some - but to group all those people into a single group is wrong. also, judging by the number of people playing on d3 at 2 am in the morning (especially when more than half are on servers that require hundreds of megs of downloads), people are enjoying the game. again, that doesnt make the game perfect, but i do not believe you are painting an altogether accurate.

on a seperate note...

sfc3 did not have disappointing sales? that sounds great! thanks for the info.. just wish we could find out some more info.

this is good news (for all)!

 

NannerSlug

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2003, 01:03:47 pm »
Quote:

No, better yet, a lot more of us were expecting it to not just turn in one diection and stop, but have a consistent universe attached to it. Thanks for the one line reply, Dave!! Why don't you speculate on this further, instead of just being flippant. Tell us to shut- up, give an opionion, or state a fact with numbers...  don't hold out on us.  




i dont think dave can comment on exact numbers unless he wants to be slapped with a lawsuit from ativi/ get fired. it was nice to get that morsel, though.

Sethan

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2003, 01:20:21 pm »
Quote:

SFC3 did not have disappointing sales.

Thanks,

Dave  




Never said it did.

The true measure of a game is not how well it sells, but how many people it sold to are still playing it years afterwards.

High sales is great in the short term - but if most of those people play the game for a week or a month and then never touch it again, that doesn't bode well for sequels.

SFC2 has maintained a strong following despite its having been out for several years.  I don't think that's happening with SFC3.

In SFC2's case the reason is twofold:

1) A highly complex fun game that is accessible to new players but takes work to master.

2) A tremendous level of support from the developer.

In SFC3's case, it was designed to have a broader appeal and so initial sales were higher - but the complexity is lacking, reducing replay value.

The amount of support Taldren has been able to give SFC3 has also been more limited than for the SFC2 series, due to Activision's 'one patch' policy, and the absence of a Khoromag-type situation for SFC3.

 

NannerSlug

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2003, 01:29:37 pm »
has it sethan? i challenge both statments.

sfc3 has already recieved several mods and is growing.. that ability to adapt and grow and add in much of the detail which was not in the inital release will help it sustain growth.  the base sfc3 game has recieved a fraction of the support from its publisher (no demo, no official patch yet) yet is doing quite well. could you say that for sfc2? hard to say, but given the adverse conditions '3 has gone through, i think its done quite well.

in short, lets talk a year or even 18 months after its release and we will see.  

EmeraldEdge

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2003, 01:36:47 pm »
Quote:

if you bought sfc3 and felt like it was going to be another incarnation - then you might not have done the proper research. it was well known for a very, very long time that they were going away from the sfb rule set for sfc3.




It has been widely proffessed that the vast majority of gamers do, not only, not come to these forums but don't browse the internet for game information, etc.  This has been the main vocal support for the "most gamers don't want SFB" crowd, since most the people here want it.  So, if it is in fact true that most do not use the internet for their gaming information or even if they only occassionally, then it is highly likely that they did not get this information.  I don't believe it's printed on the box, is it?  No big sign at the software store at the SFC3 display?

edit:  Question.  Which is better.  A buggy demo that plays very similar to the game that came before, making people wince at the bugs in even the demo and the thought of what the actual game might be like, or no demo at all?  Major advertised feature missing with many missed promises of release and eventual buggy release (not to mention massively buggy game release in general) and some patches stretched out over years, or a release with a few bugs no missing features, and a beta patch?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 01:43:17 pm by EmeraldEdge »

NannerSlug

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2003, 01:41:30 pm »
the door swings both ways, EE.. again, looking at who the "core" audience is.. (trek fans) it could go either way. it simply is an unknown. to lump everyone into the "its not sfb so im mad" crowd is wrong and presupposing that is the only reason why sfc did well in the first place. (which i believe is false)

but you know what - neither side can prove its case, so it probably should be left alone.. my main point was that it is wrong to lump everyone into the same group.

EmeraldEdge

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2003, 01:50:47 pm »
What does that have to do with telling a guy he's disappointed because he didn't do his research?  

Tumulorum Fossor

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2003, 03:03:06 pm »
Dave Ferrell said:
"SFC3 did not have disappointing sales."


I stand corrected, and am sincerely glad that SFC3 did NOT have disappointing sales and that I was incorrect in making that statement.  I do not have any privileged information in that regard and that statement was my impression just based on the general buzz of SFC3 relative to SFC and SFC2, and is HARDLY scientific.

I did not mean to offend.

But I cannot help but get the feel that even at this point, SFC2's following, despite its age, is currently comparable to SFC3's following, and that SFC3 support within the gaming community is decaying at a more rapid rate than SFC2 support.  That, coupled with Activision's remarkable complaint to Viacom implies that Activision was disappointed with the sales of Star Trek software (Armada, Elite Force, SFC3, Bridge Commander, Armada 2, Elite Force 2, Away Team).  Of those seven titles, 4 were games that did well enough that they either got a sequel or were a sequel themselves while under Activision, leaving 3 titles holding-the-bag so to speak: Bridge Commander, Away Team, and SFC3.  Of the 3, clearly Away Team was the big loser, but just as clearly, Activision could not have been overwhelmed with sales of the other remaining titles either.  Activision's apparent lack of support of Taldren in trying to get a patch going (and that's just hearsay I my part: I have no concrete info on it), furthers suspicion.  But once again, it's all conjecture.

Also, it's just an educated guess here, but I would think the target sales for SFC3 would be significantly higher than for SFC2: bigger budget(?), more complete license, and more EXPENSIVE license agreement.  But to the casual observer, at least at this point in time, SFC3's following seems to be comparable and not clearly larger than SFC.  And, as I already said, I suspect SFC3's interest-decay to be much more rapid than SFC2's.  But, obviously, I could be wrong.

Now don't get me wrong: as an SFC/Taldren fan, even an SFB-oriented one, for SFC3 to be considered within the industry as a success is A Very Good Thing.  It dramatically increases the likelihood that SFC will eventually continue hand-in-hand with the Star Trek license even across a THIRD publisher (to continue across 2 publishers is impressive enough in this business, by the way).  Personally, however, I hope that SFC2's long-term interest will serve as the catalyst for an SFC4 rather than SFC3's short-term(?) sales figures.  Why?  Because if the impetus for SFC4 is perceived as being due to SFC3's commercial success, it will likely migrate further from my beloved SFB mechanics in the hopes of broadening the market for the initial sales spike.  Whereas if SFC2's slavish following is perceived as the impetus for SFC4, then I would expect SFC4 to be MORE SFBish in rules.

But once again, I did not mean to offend with my [mis]characterization of SFC3 sales as disappointing.  Furthermore, I'm grateful for the SFC:OP support!  Thanks, David Ferrell (and everyone else so involved)!

I DO think it would be an interesting question to ask everyone in this thread:
 "If SFC4 ever materializes, will it be because of the success/persistence of SFC3 OR the success/persistence of SFC2[OP/EAW]?

Just curious to hear what other people think.

Thanks!

-TF

P.S.:  While trying to get an idea about the market demand for SFC3 by perusing ebay listings, I couldn't fight the temptation: I went ahead an just PURCHASED a copy of SFC3, because even though it leaves most of my beloved SFB rulebook bleeding and dying at the side of the road, it just LOOKS so darned cool!  UI looks good, good price [now], and the beta patch available for download.  Besides, I already have SFC, EAW, and OP.  Might as well give 3 a shot.  But damned if I'll get used to only 4 shields !
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 03:22:05 pm by Tumulorum Fossor »

Reverend

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2003, 04:15:58 pm »
I for one did not buy SFC2 or OP because it was SFB-related. After getting the spec files while chooseing a ship, it became obvious enough, but I did not choose to buy it for or because it was SFB-related. Me, like many more others than you'd think, bought it because it was the only decent Trek game released thus far... I bought Dominion Wars becuae I heard it wasn't SFB-related, and found out it didnt have much time put into it, and was too story-based. Many of us had to buy SFC+ because it was the only real ST game out, NOT becasue it was SFB-ralted. Its like moving into a town that has all Satanic Churchs, and one Jehovah's Witness Hall.... I am not a Jehovah's Witness,no offense to them, but its better than what is out there.
SFC3 took what it needed from SFB and dropped the ''unrealistic'' aspects from it... like a set impusle speed limit, the inability to go in reverse, and in-system or in-battle warp. We also lost many logical and crucial systems, like autopilot (point defense), and so on.
If SFC3 didn't have the SFC title, it might have sold even more. It just feels to me and many others with a SFB-heavy game, is that you're driving a Ferrari Testarossa without a reverese gear and won't go above 2nd gear, and no headlights. Seems to hamper it some; I am flying a bitmapped game piece on  board- like I've said before. Sorry if am giving SFB fans a hard time, I was just hoping that they take SFC3 and push it to anotehr level, leaving the modablity capacity strong. Keep the same aspects from SFB we had, but keep the rules reduction in there.
I know, its like asking for cake and getting a slice with no fork, but it drew this many newcomers, and I bet thsoe newcomers have tried SFC2 and are enjoying it as well.
Thanks for the space, and for reading it....
Dave, give us some more input, you know we all appreciate it when you speak.  

**DONOTDELETE**

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Re: If Trek Liscense is Split Up Again, What Happens to SFC Series?
« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2003, 04:34:25 pm »
Then again, if SFC TNG didnt have the "SFC" title, it might have sold alot WORSE.

HAND!