Topic: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP

[Cleaven]

If there was to be a fire sale, I'd like to see ADB get rights to electronic media for SFB.

And I want a bike, and a pony , and train set, and a ......  

[Scipio_66]

Quote:
If there was to be a fire sale, I'd like to see ADB get rights to electronic media for SFB.

And I want a bike, and a pony , and train set, and a ......  
--------------------
 Vaiyo A-O
A Home Va Ya Ray
Vaiyo A-Rah
Jerhume Brunnen G

The dead do not care about fire sales.

-S'Cipio  

[Cleaven]

Quote:

Quote:
If there was to be a fire sale, I'd like to see ADB get rights to electronic media for SFB.

And I want a bike, and a pony , and train set, and a ......  
--------------------
 Vaiyo A-O
A Home Va Ya Ray
Vaiyo A-Rah
Jerhume Brunnen G

The dead do not care about fire sales.

-S'Cipio  

.... new series of Lexx, and TOS DVD's and .... some other stuff!
 

[mbday]

Ok I have thought about this for some time and I have talk to some people. It seams that SFC3 has the sme things as SFC2. WHat this means is much of what we are looking for are here. We just need to get Taldren and Act. to open these back up to us for use. I.E. The races. The ships, the Wepones, And many of the other things.  If we could get some of this back it might make the game better and get us headed in the right diraction for the game that we would all like to see.
I say lets see what we can get truned back on and added back in and how long would it take.
I would like to See SFC3 with many of the SFC2 systems.  

[Ifrit]

If the SFC3 source code ever became available, I'm sure that a lot could be done with it (judging by everything that Khoromag has done with SFC2), but 'Continuous Space' sounds like an entirely new game.  SSCF-Patterson, are you thinking of a new game, or simply changes to made to the existing SFC platform?  

[Ifrit]

I killed the thread!
I didn't even mention MIPMAP FILTERS, and I still KILLED the THREAD!

But with the OP patch out, this is not surprising...  

[Dogmatix!]

Aye, matey, that you did!  Arrrrrrrr.....



 

[Ifrit]

Perhaps I should be proud of this accomplishment -- with a single swift post I dispatched the thread, severing the sinewy veins that carried the bile of countless arguments to its belly (where the compressed anger of countless fans was converted into flame, and subsequently vented out either one end or the other of the terrible beast).  

[Dogmatix!]

A feat to make even this Klingon Warrior proud!

[Reverend]

Quote:
If the SFC3 source code ever became available, I'm sure that a lot could be done with it (judging by everything that Khoromag has done with SFC2), but 'Continuous Space' sounds like an entirely new game.  SSCF-Patterson, are you thinking of a new game, or simply changes to made to the existing SFC platform?    

As much as I complain about the exact same thing, knowing fullly that such an item would sell like ice in hell, I would not let this one go without my sorry input. Surely such a mod could be tied into SFC3... why could you not just link them? Maybe it would be a new platform, but I wonder how new it'd have to be. I bet if we had something like that, all of our SFB friends would be on there with 'us', having a blast too.  

[Reverend]

Like Patterson adn Hypergol and Nanner say, I do believe another installment is a worthy shot, one with Continuous Space... if we have to jerk "SFC" out of the title, then so what? I'd hate to see such a game with generic titles of this and that, but surely with some moddablility left in the new installment, you could just alter it with a naming mod or something.  

[SSCF-Patterson]

   "Through the woodland, through the valley comes a horseman wild and free. Tilting at the windmills passing, who can the brave, young horseman be."  

And with that, I will now attempt to hopefully bring together the various factions that have developed within the Star Trek SFC gaming community.

When SFC 1 hit the shelves there was finally a game which all (SFB'ers and non SFB'ers) could enjoy. Then SFC 2 came along with some better weapons, some more races, and most importantly Dynaverse. Then Orion Pirates storms into the fray and offers us some more things for us to play with. Then SFC 3 hits the scene and all hell breaks lose. A large rift developed between the old guard and the new guard. Both parading their points of view and thinking that one game(s) are vastly superior to the others.

Distingushed members of the Star Trek gaming community, it is time to cast aside these differences and band together and design a game which could satisfy both SFB'ers and Non-SFB'ers alike. For those wondering what camp I fall into, I belong to the community as a whole, who played SFB and who owns such games as SFA, KA, BC, SFC 1 thru 3, OP, Dominion Wars, Armada, and the list goes on.  

With the advent of computers, companies were able to design Star Trek games for those of us who wanted for a few hours to escape and pretend what it would be like to destroy a Klingon D7 with a photon torpedeo, or a Federation Constitution class heavy cruiser with a full bank of disruptors, or being able to sneak up on an opponet and decloak and destroy their ship before they realize what happened.

The only concern that I have is to ensure that the dream envisioned by Gene Roddenberry (may he rest in peace) that we have embraced in our respective ways, never dies and the games that have been produced now and hopefully in the future will never fade away.

Why?

We the members of the Star Trek gaming community must unite and begin to offer suggestions to companies to have a game produced for all of us to enjoy. A unitied community will get more results then a divided community.

How?

Simple. Take a good look at the SFC series (SFC 1 thru 3 and Orion Pirates) and deciede what works, what doesn't and incorporate into a game for us to enjoy.

I have broken down the games into these four sections for discussion:

1. Interface - how the game looks and feels on your computer
2. Races - the good, the bad, and the ugly
3. Devices - Sensors, Cloaking Device, Power management, etc....
4. Weapons

  INTERFACE

Here I must submit that SFC 1 leads the way with the others falling behind in some way or another. With SFC 1 you started your game and depending on the race you swore alliagence to, everything was done to give you the feeling that you belonged to that empire.

For SFC 2 and OP they continued to hold true to that formula with improvements for modding weapons for races who didn't normally have them. ie. modding a  Hydran ship with missiles and they have their own control panel, instead of someone else's as was the case in SFC 1. But SFC 2 and OP did use generic interfaces for start up screens and some other stuff and it did take away some of the flavour and feeling that was established by SFC 1.

SFC 3 uses a generic display for all races. While easier, it does take away from the flavour of the game, in that the panel for your ship is the same for all races.

So if I were to design a game, I would use the formula that were used by  SFC 1.

 RACES  

Well, its nice to have both good guys and bad guys and alliances between them all. And all games I feel offer a good selection to choose from. But I do feel SFC 3 could have gone a bit farther be including the Dominion and Cardasians into their basic game instead of have members of the community like KoraH modding them into their respective servers. BTW cudos to KoraH and the TNZ crew  

However, the new game should encompass elements from all the SFC series but I do feel in my opinion that the following races should be standard for a new game:

Federation, Klingon, and Romulan - canon races established by TOS

Hydran, Lyran, and Mirak - established by SFB and offer a wide range of weapons, ships and tactics for players to enjoy

Cardasian, Borg and Dominion - established by TNG/DS9 with the Borg and the Dominion being the supreme in bad  

As for other races such as the Tholians, Telerites, Andorians, ISC, and an host of others, members of the community such as Brezzgone, Knox, Makie, Chris Jones, and a host of others could continue to do the outstanding and excellent work   that they have always done for the community in the past.

 DEVICES/SYSTEMS  

This would incorporate the following:
Sensor (EW), Energy management, Officers, Repairs, Helm, Security, Communications,etc...

Sensors (Electronic Warfare)

Well, I feel that SFC 1, 2 and OP and SFC3 are basically tied. The reason being, is that SFC 1,2, and OP use ECM and ECCM to counter the effects of the various weapons while SFC 3 uses angular velocity. Both produce the same effect IMO. But the ECM/ECCM established in SFC 1,2, and OP is probally the best system to use.

Energy Management

No contest here. SFC 1, 2, and OP allow a starship commander to fine tune where they want their power to go and what systems have priority. This is a must have for any future SFC game. Sorry to SFC 3 but energy management is lacking I'm afraid.

Officers

Here both SFC 1 and 3 lead the pack here. The ability to further advance your officers and recruite and dismiss officers in single player and particularly SFC3 on Dynaverse is an excellent feature. So I would incorporate SFC 3's officer feature/ability into the game. Overall, SFC 3's ability for officers to play a crutial role in your starships performance is a feature that must be incorporated into any future games.

Repairs

Here, I feel SFC 3 got the right idea. They use the Engineering Officers ability to deciede how many repairs can be preformed on your ship. As your Engineer gains experience so do the number of "orders" and speed which repairs can be completed. Currently in the D2 campaigns, there have been debates on "how many spare parts should a ship carry", "how many can be used in a mission", etc... . I believe that SFC 3's formula is probally the best to be used.

Security, Communications and Science

All SFC series of games are fairly standard here so no change.

Helm

Here I would combine the elments from all SFC series games. While SFC 3 does have the ability to match your opponets speed, it does lack the types of HET's that can be performed by you helmsman from the other series.

Shields

Well, I have always felt that in SFC 1,2 and OP the 6 shield faces represented, Fore, Aft, Starboard, Port, Ventral and Dorsal shields. SFC 3 simplified things by only going with four shield facings. To be honest I would incorporate the shield system from SFC 1, 2, and OP.

Fleet Control

SFC 3 handles this through the Comms button, while the rest have a seperate control. The best fleet control is to be found in SFC 2 and OP and should be incorported into any future games.

Tactial Map

I do prefer SFC 3 way of doing the tactical map. Primarily due to the fact it shows up in a seperate area of your screen and is always visible, unlike in SFC 1,2, and OP which has to be toggled on and off as you need it. I much prefer having  the big picture at your disposal at all times.

Cloaking Device

Ahh, here we go. With the advent of the OP patch this statement appeared:

Quote:
it has been implemented to the closest of SFB specs as possible without changing the inner engine involved.

to which I asked:

Quote:


I'm curious how it will behave in the game.
Will it be similar to the cloak used in SFA, KA, and SFC 3?

To which the response was:

Quote:
 No.

Straightforward but I have to admit SFC 3's management of the cloaking device is very similar to the way it was used in SFA and KA. And the use of the beta patch took out the following bug so now when a ship cloaks you can't track it unless you've got a good tactical officer and a good ships computer. I have always felt, that while SFB used various modifiers, etc..., to simulate the cloak in a board game, the cloak that was utilizied by SFC 1, 2, and OP was lacking when introduced as you could maintain a lock on a cloaked ship, beam marines over to a cloaked ship, and fire upon it. So I would use SFC 3 cloaking engine for any future games.

 Weapons  

SFB did introduce some excellent concepts for weaponary.  By far, OP has the best selection to make any ships captain drool.   . This must be incorporated and maintained in any future games.

But SFC 3 did return to the Roddenberry concept of weapons. In that weapons were energy based and each race had specific weapons, Federation Phasers, Klingon Disruptors, Romulan Disruptors, Borg Cutting Beams, etc... .

However, energy weapons do get a bit stale, and I feel that will SFB's weaponary for races should be incorporated fully.

The only change would be to the primary weapons. While I agree that Federation and Hydran races for example have phaser technology, Klingon and Romulan ships for example should carry disruptors in lieu of phasers as their primary weapons.

 CONCLUSION  


Believe me this post is fairly lengthy but I have only scratched the surface. There are plenty of other things to discuss but the bottom line here is:

1. Do all the games have advantages?   YES

2. Do all the games have disadvantages?   YES

3. Can the advantages from all  games be incorporated into a game for all  to enjoy?   YES

4. Can we satisfy everyone?   NOPE

But unless we get together as a community and drop our prejudices, games such as SFC 4 and beyond may never get developed.


Regards to all




                               

[Ifrit]

Does anyone from Taldren disapprove of a thread discussing this kind of project?  It would be interesting to see a tactical simulator that used a very flexible ruleset, one that could be adapted into a SFB variant without being shipped as a SFB/SFC product.  The user would define the number of shield arcs, for instance, and then specify the range, damage, and accuracy of all direct fire and seeking weapons.  Some systems would be harder to reduce to a set of properties (WW, ESG, WEB), but so long as nothing is carried over directly, the resulting game would be neither SFC nor SFB.

The game mechanics could only be pushed so far, of course.  A turn-based game would be easier to design, but it would probably attract a smaller audience.  It would be interesting to set up a continuous universe in a turn-based game, since the net code would be less of a nightmare.  You would probably see larger engagements as well, since lag would be less of an issue.

Would anyone play a turn-based version of continuous space?  If so, I might have to go to work...




 

[Cpt. Chaos]

I wish SFC had been turn-based in the first place...

Turn-based gives you the ability to handle numerical values, instead of colored bars and sliders...

Bring back the nooks and crannies in the weapons tables...  Unrealistic? yep.  Add character and fun to the game? Yep.

Hex field: Unrealistic? Yep.  A beneficial abstraction? You bet.  The ability to anticipate and predict, a carefully developed skill that makes your ability to be in exactly the right place at the right time with the right weapons charged seem like some kind of magic...  The strategy, the flavor, the brain-cramps, the  fun, but without the endless arguments...    That is the eternal SFB-camp dream....


Chaos

[Storvick]

Quote:

I wish SFC had been turn-based in the first place...

Turn-based gives you the ability to handle numerical values, instead of colored bars and sliders...

Bring back the nooks and crannies in the weapons tables...  Unrealistic? yep.  Add character and fun to the game? Yep.

Hex field: Unrealistic? Yep.  A beneficial abstraction? You bet.  The ability to anticipate and predict, a carefully developed skill that makes your ability to be in exactly the right place at the right time with the right weapons charged seem like some kind of magic...  The strategy, the flavor, the brain-cramps, the  fun, but without the endless arguments...    That is the eternal SFB-camp dream....


Chaos  

if a pure SFB game for Star Trek is made you will see one person who will not buy it. I have tried and tried to get into SFB but couldn't I have bought all the SFC titles (some of them as gifts for others) We need a game that will support both SFB and SFBers togather not make a game for just one crowd and screw the other crowd.

[Cpt. Chaos]

Oh, I understand that, the SFB market size is limited, you have to agregate a target market large enough to make a game profitable, etc.  I'm just airing my ideals in the hopes of moving the average a little in my direction ;^)


Chaos

[Cpt. Chaos]

The other strength of computer-based SFB was going to be the ability to have ALL the numbers at your disposal on a single screen, with color and intelligence and the ability to be automatically updated (and without any damned grease pencils ;^), and I just thought of something, you know how in Diablo, they have a translucent overlay of the strat map on the tactical display?

How about a toggle to have a translucent screen full of numbers overlaid on the tactical map, ie 1) just the SSD/EA screen, 2) a translucent SSD/EA superimposed over a translucent map, 3) just the map...

If you've played Diablo, you know what I'm talking about.

And a screen full of numbers shouldn't send shudders down your back, if they are well organized and presented, that info gives you power to predict, estimate, plan, and gamble on a concious level (what SFB'rs call 'fun',) rather than "guess and wait and twitch" (no offense meant, but that's how real time seems to me, I still enjoy it, it's just not the same thing, the thing I really wanted in the first place...) It's the difference between thinking your way through a game, and feeling your way through a game.


Chaos

[SSCF-Patterson]

Quote:
We need a game that will support both SFB and SFBers togather not make a game for just one crowd and screw the other crowd.

Well thats what I am attempting to do.

Tilting at windmills, my speciality. Been doing it for years.

But I seriously believe that if you look at SFB which the SFC series is based on, and took all the good elements from all of the SFC series  (and believe me, time or space didn't allow me to list everything), I firmly believe we can come up a game that will appeal to the masses.

I mean, for example,  would you rather have a cloak that behaves as per SFB ? Or a cloak that acts the way it does in SFC 3, SFA, KA, etc...., where the cloak ship disappears completely, can't track it, follow it,  without a strong computer or an experienced tactical officer. And by the time you do, its usually to late.

Now some wonder why I seem to continually mention the cloak. When I did play SFB years ago, and I was just a casual player, when a ship cloaked you bascially had to add/subtract from your die roll etc.. (bear in mind its been awhile and I don't remember everything from SFB.   ) to compensate for your weapons hitting or missing the cloaked ship. In other words it was SFB's way IMHO to simulate/pretend a ship was cloaked on a board game.

Then along comes a game called Starfleet Academy. And low and behold, Romulan ships cloaked. They disappeared from your sensors and usually re-appeared (to late for you to do anything effective) and you took damage from the Disruptors and Plasma Torpedeos that were fired at you. When SFC 1 hit the shelves I thought "Cool, Romulan ships will cloak  just like in SFA." But to my dismay, when the ships cloaked  you could keep a lock on them and continue to fire on them. Ok, I'll live with it. Everything else is there such as Damage Control, Boarding parties etc.. to make the game entertaining was in place.  Then along came SFC 2 and OP and again when a Romulan ship cloaked you could still keep a lock on them and continue to fire on them. Yes the modifiers where in place to limit the damage but I always felt that Romulans were denied the following statement:

   The Romulan relies on his ability to get close to his opponent using a combination of his cloaking device and stealth, and then overwhelm him with plasmas.  

Starfleet Command Volume II
Empires at War
Gameplay Manual & Reference Guide
Starfleet Cadet Academy Training
Section 201.03
Page A-20

Yes, you'll have some argue "Well if you don't like SFC 1,2 or OP,  then go play something else" and so on and so forth.

But a quote

  "Starfleet Command will be both familiar and different to you as well. The design team members are long-time SFB fans and players. We have followed closely the spirit, if not the letter, of the Doomsday ruleset, but we had to make changes to have a better and workable computer game. Board games and computer games are obviously different and require a different mind-set to design and create."  

Star Trek Starfleet Command
Instruction Manual
Extended Foreword
Section titled "For Players of Star Fleet Battles"
Page 12

So distinguished members of the community, if Interplay and its designers realized the limitations and difficulties of converting a board game into a computer game, we can choose to accept the above statement and attempt to end this constant bickering about SFB vs SFC 1, 2, and OP vs SFC 3 and take all the good elements from these games and have a better designed game,

Or

Continue to argue that one game(s) is better then the other and have nothing.

I personnally prefer to have a better game  





                     

[Tulwar]

With Activision sueing Viacom, the future of SFC is very much in the air.  I loved the SFC series prior to SFC TNG.  I guess this makes me "closed minded."

At the very least, any new game has to be slick, well polished, and have a finished feel.  I think this is the absolute bottom line.  The poor music tracks in SFC TNG is appalling; no future version should overlook details like this.

Enough ragging on SFC3.  This is what I want:

1.)  Multi-era, from "Enterprize" to "Voyager"

2.)  Seeking weapons and fighters, specialized defensive weapons

3.)  Enable large, multi-player, fleet based interaction, perhaps twenty players in the same battle....  doubt that's even possible.

4.)  Smarter AIs

I'm not holding my breath.  Reconciliation between SFC1, 2, OP fans and SFC TNG fans?  Not possible.  

[nx_adam_1701]

I agree with Tulwar on one thing and that is more players, I mean its sometimes war, or small skirmishes, but you cant wage war with 4 or 6 ships, I mean I want to be able to have a fleet consisting of about 8 to ten ships, I know we can command 40 or 30, but atleast 10 to 15 ships, I dont care if I play SFB era, or TMP, or TNG, just make it better

adam out

PS Keep the cloak from SFC3, its the best
ohh yeah make it more modable and by that I mean weapons, and keep the warp from SFC3, I think thats it for me  lol lol