Topic: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP  (Read 33050 times)

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SSCF-Patterson

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2003, 10:06:47 pm »
Read your thread Mr Hypergol. Is it possible? Yes

But would you be intrested in participating on the proposal I've intended?

Even if the split you propose occurs, the new company may still want feedback. And if we go with a template it stands a better chance.

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2003, 10:25:46 pm »
 
Quote:

 But would you be intrested in participating on the proposal I've intended?
 




Sure.  I'll provide input as requested.  I just think we need to focus our efforts on what is most likely......i.e. continuing the SFC1,2,OP line.  The SFC3 line is a clear dead end with our current liscensing situation.  

Rod O'neal

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2003, 11:22:14 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

As far as doing away with the D6 to determine hit/damage probability. The formula has to be kept simple enough that the player, not just the computer, has an idea of how much damage can be expected at different ranges, etc... As an example, in SFB you can pretty well estimate the damage that you're going to get/give at a particular range. This allows you to decide at what range(s) you want the battle to take place at. Much of the tactics then revolve around maneuver to get into your desired firing position and keep your opponent out of their's.    




This leads to the intresting question as to whether you wish a random factor in what your hit and how hard you hit.  If so, generally how do you think it should be determined?  If not, why not?  




Yes, there has to be a random factor. If not then you end up with, "Player A flying Ship B executes maneuver C against Ship D and wins EVERYTIME. No matter what the Capt. of ship D does." How do you put it in? Well you make the weapons have a chance of missing entirely, and have variable damage is how they do it in SFB. If the game isn't based on SFB then do it some other way, if you'd like.
For the record, I don't have a problem with 1000 Trek games being made that have nothing to do with SFB. I probably won't play them, but you can make, and sell as many as you want to. I just want to play SFB on my computer. Before anyone tells me to join a PBEM SFB group, that's not what I mean.
When I first played SFC2, I didn't have SFC1, I was estatic that I could actually play SFB on my computer. After a time though, I started wanting to use tactics that weren't included in the game. Only a very small portion of SFB is included in SFC. I for one would be willing to pay for expansions that added more of the rules to SFC. A couple of times a year release an expansion that adds whatever Taldren can manage to code into the game in that period of time. If they wanted to draw a from a bigger base than the fans like me who are willing to pay for incremental improvements then they'd probably have to add races etc... It would be more work and I'm not sure if they could charge enough and sell enough to make it worthwhile to do.
If what you're interested in are ideas for a completely new game, that's OK too. Just tell me/us and I will  quit wasting your time. No inference or sour grapes intended.      

NannerSlug

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2003, 11:39:04 pm »
its just as dead as any other option hyper.. in fact, i would say that sfc3 is a more open ended option simply because its more modable.. but hey, that is another opinion.

Cleaven

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2003, 11:39:22 pm »
The biggest problem here is a matter of who actually owns what. I can count the interests of at least five groups being involved here, when you start discussing new products based on old ones. Paramount/Viacom, ADB, Interplay, Activision and Taldren. There may be others. I would make sure everybody in this parade has a golf umbrella.  

(and a good pair of wellies)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Cleaven »

mbday

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2003, 03:23:21 am »
I ready to do what it takes to get somehting ready to show to any company for the next SFC or Star Trek game.
 

Tulwar

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2003, 05:05:38 am »
Something that would please everybody?

That would be difficult.  SFC3 was stripped of everything I liked about SFC, yet some people really enjoy it.  My lack of understanding of the appeal of SFC3 makes it impossible for me to concieve of something that will work for that camp.

The fact that the studios did not feel any complution to maintain continuity between TOS and TNG does not help.  An example would be basic starship architechture.  The Klingon K'T'Inga fired photon torpedoes from the same place the D-7 had its main deflector dish,and  the Reliant had no main defector while the Enterprise still devoted a huge section to this device.

The only way I could see a streamlined interface work for me is if it automated functions, rather than eliminating functions.  The match speed function in SFC3 was an actual improvement.  The fact that once you reinforced a specific shield, you had to reinforce a specific shield for the rest of the mission did just the opposet.

The one aspect of SFC that always bothered me was that it was too much of a first person shooter.  The opperation of any single ship in close combat is far too involved for much in the way of fleet control.  The only way to improve this aspect is by actively promoting fleets.

As soon as SFC came out, people started organizing fleets.  The fleets started using BC or RW to communicate in game, so more complicated tactics could be employed.  A Dynaverse where participating fleets could have greater control of their empires do much to these ends.

I have only seen one disparaging comment about a Harpoon-like game, but I don't know if anybody could concieve of the difficultly of juggling hundreds of starships in dozens of battle groups.  I don't know if it would be possible to do that in multi-player.

An improved Dynaverse could actually do this without making a game for us hard-core war-gamers.  Create rules for information sharing and detection.  While between missions, individual captains could choose between active scanning, passive scanning, and using a cloak.  Information could be shared between units, so a scout could stalk targets for main battle units.  It would be nice to know where your starbases are, and not blunder around the map blindly.  Territory could be conquered by simply setting up a listening post.  The number, and typed of missions would be defined by what was actually out there to fight.  One should not have to play a mission in unguarded space to take it.

The player should have the option of choosing between commander's, captain's, and admiral's rulesets, plus difficultly factor.  This would allow the uninitiated to work thier way up to the "real game."

I would like to see the timeline between TOS an TNG brought togeter.  I would like to see the game hinted at in SFC2, i.e. SFC GAW.  If I had that game, I would be very open to a TNG game that threw the SFB rules out the window, but not one as poorly executed as SFC TNG.

I'm trying not to flame here, but what I wish to get acorss is that my most serious problem with SFC3 has nothing to do with rulesets, AV or the TNG setting.  Music, skins, and stabily (especially single player stablity) are important quality issues.  Also, If there is to be an "all new" game, it needs to be a new game.  SFC3 looked to me as if somebody had merely slapped Activion's Starship Creator into a stripped-down version of OP, with a control lay-out that appeared to be avoiding copyright infringments more than providing playablity.  I hated having to put the disk in my computer to play the game.  Putting that disk in my computer made me feel dirty, like I had been used.  Of course I was disappointed that it meant there would be no GAW, but I'm angry about paying $50.00 for a game that doesn't even run with my SiS AMD chipset!

The major driver, from Activision's veiwpoint is that they want to stay current with what is showing on television and in the theatres.  Their timing for a TNG game was a bit late.  Marketing was too far ahead of development.  SFC TNG was released unfinnished without allowing Taldren to produce the game that had obviously been planned.  They simply combined assets to put together a product they could sell in short order, at the end of TNG's run.

A publisher should  recognise that SFC did not come into being over-night.  It is based on a boardgame that has survived over a quarter of a century. ST TNG will be in syndication for decades.  This means ST products will be markable for the forceable future.  I think Taldren was working alone these lines, and deleberately left a number of things out of SFC2 so that they would include them in future titles.  A wise buisness move for Activision would have been to continue that line, learning to blend the rulesets that they created for their own games into SFC as it matured.  Hades!  Even and old SFBer like me would want to drive a Galaxy-Class cruiser, eventually.  The game would grow slowly as more markets opened.  Of course, players would drift away, but aunts and uncles would buy the new title for nieces and nephews.

It appears that OP was meant to be SFC3 GAW, but was rushed into production while Taldren still had the rights to produce it.  It appeared to the SFC community as "half a game," so few people bought it.  It should spent more time in production.  SFC TNG should hve spent a lot more time in production.  To be fair, SFC3 is very good for the speed at which it was produced.  Whatever Taldren does next, should not be rushed!

What could I say about a product that would please both camps?  I only know what I want.  I want a good strategic game.  I want to order ships around, or just be a part of that.  I want a game where I have to think about more than the target I'm aiming at.  The last thing I want is a game that is more of a first person shooter.  There are other titles that do that.

Did I mention that I want SFC GAW?  

Cleaven

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2003, 06:32:24 am »
I'm surprised to see comments about music. First thing to do after starting any game is go to the configurations, turn down/off the music, and make sure the voice comms program works.
 

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #108 on: July 13, 2003, 07:31:31 am »
Hey.....if we make a "Harpoon-like" game in the Star Trek universe, can we call it...."Photon"?  

Tulwar

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2003, 11:49:44 am »
How about "Federation and Empire?"  

Tulwar

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2003, 11:52:37 am »
Cleaven might not like the music, but it's a big deal for me.  When I took the bridge of a Lyran ship, there was no turning back!  

IndyShark

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2003, 12:32:25 pm »
I'd like to see the bording party actions changed. Capturing enemy ships is too easy. Once they are badly damaged, you can beat on them until 2 marines are left and capture them as easy as you please.

I'd like to see each ship have built in defences such that a BC has "14" ghost marines. You can capture her, but you better send over 20 marines to do it. Ghosts don't fight (but on board defenses sometimes kill), but they make larger ships harder to capture. Having said that, PP for capturing shoudl be increased and there is always a chance the ship will blow up.  It would be nice to have a sensor reading on how many crewman are left and if the ship still has any atmosphere left. If the ship loses life support and atmosphere, you can tow her home, but your marines can't capture her unless they wear spacesuits 24x7. (Not popular with the marines since you can't smoke cigars...)

Oh, and Klingon ships should be capable of mutiny like SFB. That was a cool rule and made the battle interesting until the bitter end.

Lepton1

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2003, 02:21:05 pm »
Off-topic a bit or alot.  Someone mentioned Harpoon 3 on this thread I think.  So I checked it out and downloaded the demo. Seems pretty complicated.  Is it worth wading in deeper into the pool if I am not looking for a spot-on immersion sim like this one?  Can someone recommend a PC based naval board game if there is one?

The_Infiltrator

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2003, 03:17:19 pm »
Quote:

I'd like to see the bording party actions changed. Capturing enemy ships is too easy. Once they are badly damaged, you can beat on them until 2 marines are left and capture them as easy as you please.

I'd like to see each ship have built in defences such that a BC has "14" ghost marines. You can capture her, but you better send over 20 marines to do it. Ghosts don't fight (but on board defenses sometimes kill), but they make larger ships harder to capture. Having said that, PP for capturing shoudl be increased and there is always a chance the ship will blow up.  It would be nice to have a sensor reading on how many crewman are left and if the ship still has any atmosphere left. If the ship loses life support and atmosphere, you can tow her home, but your marines can't capture her unless they wear spacesuits 24x7. (Not popular with the marines since you can't smoke cigars...)

Oh, and Klingon ships should be capable of mutiny like SFB. That was a cool rule and made the battle interesting until the bitter end.  





There are detailed rules for capturing in SFB. Such as guards, changing crew units to militia when boarded, where the control spaces are, what capturing these control spaces mean, etc.

Whether or not putting this into a SFC game would be worth it or not is up to debate.

Cpt. Chaos

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2003, 06:58:21 pm »
Quote:

I am still convinced that if we present a proposal from a unified community (not to meantion buyer base for the company) then the SFC series and Star Trek games as a whole will continue to be produced.





Well, let me ask you something:  Produced by who?

Remember, Taldren are designers, the reason they made SFC3 at all was becuase they made the transition to Activision from Interplay when the licenses switched...

Activision has taken the position that they no longer intend to abide by the licensing deal, therefore, they will most likely not be producing or distributing any additional Trek titles.

Since this whole thing may well end up in court, we could be talking years before Paramount is free to assign the license to another producer (I am not a lawyer, never mind an expert on copyright law; take this as the uninformed guess that it is...)

As I understand it, Taldren did buy some rights to Orion Pirates?  (someone with definite info on this, please jump in!)

Therefore, the only possible trek game in the forseeable future (next few years) may have to be one based on OP, assuming Taldren can, and decide to, find another producer/distributor, or decide to distribute themselves by meanse of e-commerce...  I don't know the legal problems here, so they may not even be free to try something like that, perhaps until a new official Trek licensee is established.

The other possibility is that Paramount and Activision settle out of court, either with Activision no longer the licensee, In which case Taldren would have to make another jump, or, with Activsion retaining the rights, under some new financial agreement, in which case, they would have to decide that another in the SFC series, designed by Taldren, is in their financial interest, as opposed to any number of other types of Trek games, designed by who knows who...

So, just who are we supposed to be producing this design proposal for?

My own best hope is that Taldren were able to design and produce and distribute an 'upgrade' to OP, that included some of the features 'We' have been asking for.

But that's only my own pipe-dream...

Chaos
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Cpt. Chaos »

Cleaven

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2003, 08:14:40 pm »
Quote:

Cleaven might not like the music, but it's a big deal for me.  When I took the bridge of a Lyran ship, there was no turning back!  




Not that the music is good or bad, it just gets in the way.

<New Guy> Can you repeat that. I couldn't hear you over the music.
<Me> Ahh yeah, You need to turn that down.
<New Guy> What was that?  

Ifrit

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2003, 08:25:10 pm »
I'd love to see another entry in the SFC series, but I suspect that SFC3 will be the last in the line.  I'm reading these posts with an eye to a completely new game, a tactical combat simulator that would make no explicit references to SFC or SFB (but would instead use a flexible set of rules that could be modified by the players themselves).  This would put an end to some of the SFB arguments, since people could play with whatever rules they wanted, but no one would ever be completely happy (since some SFB rules would be impossible to replicate).  On the other hand, I don't think that SSCF-Patterson is recommending that we try to design such a game ourselves (and since this is a thread on a Taldren Forum, it might not be the best place to discuss such a project either way), but it would be interesting to hear how other people would reduce their favorite rules (either existing or hypothetical) to a general set of properties.  AV is probably the only rule in SFC3 that would be hard to replicate (without coding is explicity into the game), but SFB has all sorts of exotic components, such as ESG and web -- could those be duplicate using a set of more general (and hence unlicensed) rules?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2003, 08:28:40 pm by Ifrit »

SSCF-Patterson

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2003, 08:50:11 pm »
Ifrit,

Why not?

The worst that can happen is we fail. But at least we will have made a decent attempt at trying to keep the SFC series alive.
I for one am williing to give it a shot.

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2003, 12:11:59 am »
 
Quote:

 Since this whole thing may well end up in court, we could be talking years before Paramount is free to assign the license to another producer  




 
Quote:

 The other possibility is that Paramount and Activision settle out of court, either with Activision no longer the licensee, In which case Taldren would have to make another jump, or, with Activsion retaining the rights, under some new financial agreement, in which case, they would have to decide that another in the SFC series, designed by Taldren, is in their financial interest, as opposed to any number of other types of Trek games, designed by who knows who...
 




It won't be years because of the principle, "time is money".

It's in Paramount's interest to just drop the deal with Activision and make a new deal with someone else as soon as possible.  If Paramount goes years without Trek games being made it's just money lost for everyone involved.  It's also not worth the legal costs to fight Activision while Paramount is losing money because no Trek games are being made.  I'm sure this is what Activision is betting on.

I think the liscense will be split up after what just happened to Activision.  Activision just bit off more than they could chew.  The same would be true of any other company.

I think Activision and Paramount will settle out of court very quickly.  Paramount will want to distribute the liscensing to other companies as quickly as possible.  Activision want's their money back so they can move on too.

I guess it is possible that after they settle Activision still gets a piece of the pie for a lower price.  I can see them getting the TNG liscense again.  I seriously doubt Activision would want the TOS liscense.

As far as SFC is concerned, if Activision get's the TNG liscense again you can just about bet they won't make a sequel to SFC3.  The best hope for more TNG SFC is if another company gets TNG Liscense and takes a stab at SFC4.  Still I think this is unlikely based on the sales performance of SFC3 and what the TNG liscense would cost.

The big question for the entire SFC line is whether the SFC product line would split with the Trek liscense.  If Activision gets the TNG liscense "only" does this mean they retain the rights to all future uses of the SFC name?  If they do, Activision could kill the SFC line off completely with no hope of even another TOS based game....i.e. SFC: Galaxies at War, even if some other company owned  the TOS liscense.  Or perhaps a simple renaming of the game would solve this technicality?  Hell it might be better to dump the name "Starfleet Command" anyway, because it's kind of been tarnished by SFC3's sales performance.  Forget "Star Trek SFC Galaxies at War"....just call it "Star Trek Galaxies at War".

Now what about the TOS liscense?  Let's just assume that the SFC line can split with the Trek liscense.  Are you guys ready for some "wild" speculation?  Here goes.......If Trek is in general decline you can bet that TOS is the "most declined"....for this reason I bet it's a lot cheaper than the other parts of the Trek liscense making it in a price range that smaller publishers might be able to afford.  I wonder if Taldren could afford something like that?  If Black 9 is a big hit they might be able to have enough money to afford TOS liscensing.  What would this mean....I wonder?  Could Taldren afford to self publish another SFB based SFC using an enhanced OP engine......perhaps maybe a subscription service?  Could they make an SFC that adds a strategic layer based on F&E?  I wonder what it would take to create a senario like this?

For those of us who long for SFC Galaxies at War based on the original SFC games, we can only hope that whoever gets the TOS liscensing got it cheap and it's worth their while to fund the completion of the SFB based game storyline.  And we have to hope that the SFC line can also be split so Activision or whoever gets the TNG liscense can't kill the line off for good.  It would be nice to know what the possibilites were, however remote.
         

Tulwar

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2003, 01:01:17 am »
Yes, this lawsuit puts a damper on everything.  We can only hope.