Topic: The Upcoming OP Patch, Multi-Era Mods, thoughts (Read 10102 times)

Chris Jones · « **on:** June 27, 2003, 05:59:22 pm »

The recent activity surrounding the upcoming OP Patch got me thinking. Generally, after Orion Pirates was released, I enjoyed it more than EAW. When I was putting together my Multi-Era Mod for EAW (online now on my Frost-Works site) I was thinking that Multi-Era would be a big challenge for OP. Recently I have been helping with testing of the new OP Patch. Although I don't have the SFB Knowledge that the other testers for the patch do, I have been randomly playing the game looking for anything that doesn't look right. To get a different perspective on things, Just today I plugged the EAW Multi-Era shiplist (recently updated by Indigo Falcon on my own Forums), plugged in all the cartel designations from the TNG Mod for OP(using Excel), and tried her out. The theory is this:

Early Era - TOS
Mid Era - TMP
Late Era - TNG
Advanced - Voyager and beyond..

TNG THOLIANS - there's a cloaked one... Obviously this Galaxy is not Canon - this was my Fun ship in EAW Multi-Era.

The shiplist would need to be updated for OP, with OP specific weaponry on some ships, and there are a lot of ???.

What I might do is release what I have and let people play with it. If there is a desire.

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2003, 06:44:57 pm »

Chris,

Check your e-mail!

I am using the Tholians in the OrionOrion Cartel slot and having a blast! Tigerheart is too limited a slot for them IMHO; no real capital ships...

I am still waiting for a few KA Tholian kitbashes by Terradyne to be lit and resized by Atheorhaven as well as a few Romulans, V-4 from Anduril, a high ploy Melak and a few of Thulls' Romulans to complete what I've worked on for a TMP mod.

Qapla!

KF

FireSoul · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2003, 08:20:25 pm »

I suggest you hold out and wait for the patch before starting on a mod. You never know what they may fix, after all. With at least 1 issue, now that it's fixed (but I won't talk about it of course), it means mods may be 'broken'.

.. So .. wait and see is my suggestion.

-- Luc

Chris Jones · « **Reply #3 on:** June 27, 2003, 09:43:47 pm »

Yes - all I've done thus far is put a preliminary shiplist together.. in the early stages..
This will not released next week or anything.. This will no doubt last the summer in production. I already have an e-mail offering help.. I have other projects as well.. involving Bridge Commander.. that will compete for my attention..

Kieran Forester · « **Reply #4 on:** June 27, 2003, 11:41:46 pm »

Hey Chris, any progress on compiling the TNG OP mod into a single download? I know it says on your website it'll be over 500 MB, but I've got cable, I can handle it.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2003, 02:58:09 am »

Yes this is a possibility - but I'll wait until the next patch is released before I do that, to see how the mod behaves with the patch.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2003, 03:19:03 am »

Quote:

Chris,

I am using the Tholians in the OrionOrion Cartel slot and having a blast! Tigerheart is too limited a slot for them IMHO; no real capital ships...

KF

Cool, I'll check into that. The T designation made sense for Tholians.. I could move some things around. Check your e-mail!

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2003, 05:59:31 pm »

More thoughts on what I'm using for a late TMP mod that is non-canon and non-SFB based:

Feds: ALL non-canon ships. A mix of FASA and non-FASA ships but nothing canon! Some great fan ships here too.

Klinks: ALL non-canon ships. A mix of FASA and non-FASA ships but nothing canon! A few Klingon Academy ships here.

Roms: ALL non-canon ships. A mix of FASA and non-FASA ships but nothing canon! Waiting for a Romulan V-4, a Skyhawk and a Melak

Gorn: A mix of Thulls SFB style Gorn and kitbashes/styles from Crymson, P81 and others

Orion: A mix of Thulls SFB style pirates, stock pirates, and Cleeve's two Merchantmen

OrionOrion = Klingon Academy Tholians/KA kitbashes and Hollis J. Wood's TNG Tholians (KA retextured). I want to keep the KA theme alive. They are allied with you most of the time I've been playing as a Fed player.

OrionSyndicate = Mirror Universe Imperials: ALL P81 EXPLORER/ODYSSEY variants and or kitbashed ships along with the D2 Exaclibur as the PCX. I figure the Imperials have more uniformity of design than the hodge-podge of Federation ships we are used to seeing. It works out great as a nice diversion when you fight as the Feds on the Romulan border...

OrionKorgath = A mix of SFB and other non-canon, mostly non FASA Klinks. I figure House Korgath pushes its resources to the maximum and uses older ship models as it does not have the resources of the entire Klingon Empire YET!

Prime Industries = A mix of non-canon, mostly non-FASA Roms. I figure this is really a radical offshoot of the Tal Shiar that, like House Korgath, is a threat to peace even though they don't have the resources of an entire empire behind them.

OrionWyldeFire: There location seems appropriate for TMP style Andromedans/kitbashes by Darkdrone.

I am considering using SkinMan's Leigons as the Beast Raiders cartel but his Sunspider makes an EXCELLENT replacement for the Astrominer....

I really want the new patch and a few more models before I'm ready to do more than this...

Qapla!

KF

Chris Jones · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2003, 11:59:36 pm »

I'm still moving things around..

I'll go through the races and eras here when ready..

KF - that setup looks superb..

Here's my first draft of the races... taken from the aastrings.txt file
Since we are spannng all eras. I'm doubling up a bit. Doing Random skirmishes is quite interesting.

Federation
Klingon
Romulan
Lyran/Dominion (Dominion in Late/Advanced)
Hydran/Breen (Breen in Late/Advanced - some Hydrans remain in Late)
Gorn/Borg -- Gorn in TOS and TMP - Borg all eras (Thanks to Enterprise)
ISC - all eras
Mirak/Cardassian (Cardassian in Late/Advanced eras only)
Orion/Ferengi (These guys just naturally go together. The Ferengi will be avialable only in late and advanced eras.
Korgath/Duras (Two Klingon Houses combining resources)
Mirror Federation (Yes we'll have all eras here as well)
Tholians - all eras
Aliens - all eras
Maquis - fighters/light cruisers - I'm thinking there were renegade Feds in TOS and TMP
Kazon (need something here for early (TOS) and mid (TMP) eras..)
Camboro Pirates (all eras)

Feel free to comment.

FireSoul · « **Reply #9 on:** June 29, 2003, 12:52:11 am »

what about engine doubling and pirates?

FireSoul · « **Reply #13 on:** June 29, 2003, 02:16:01 pm »

It would indeed make it a very different project. Heck, let me be plain and clear..

OP+ contains additional official SFB ships for all the races that are found in SFC:OP. It will contain many fixes to other ships already included in the shiplist. No modification to those races will be made. This shiplist merely an enhanced version of the stock Taldren shiplist which came with the game.

.. There are many other races, such as Andros, Tholians, Wyn Fish Ships, Seltorians, Jindarians, the Frax simulator race, the Canadi'ens, the Megellanic Cloud races, Omega Sector, etc. However, none have a place in the plain shiplist OP+ is. The rules have been established for the given races already, and I follow them.

-- Luc

Chris Jones · « **Reply #15 on:** June 29, 2003, 02:45:33 pm »

KF -

It would have to be your own independent project, starting from the stock OP shiplist, once the new patch is released.
Perhaps your TMP Mod could reflect what you are looking for.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2003, 09:53:25 pm »

KF -

I have a theory developed from 3+ years of Modding these games.
This discussion goes back to the SFB fans and the Star Trek fans discussions. There are many who would like to make OP as close to SFB as possible, using new models and getting the weapons/specs as close as possible to SFB given what OP has. That is the theory I share actually, seeing as I am still hosting an OP mod that used several ships from Fleetdock13. Having never played that board game this would get me close to the strategies and thought patterns of that game. The people who played SFB passionately as a board game don't really want new models with the same OP weapons.

Remember when I offered to do an SFB mod with Tholians, etc, back when SFC3 was announced? It got lukewarm response so I did not pursue it. SFB fans are passionate about having things exactly, or as close to exact as possible. The main question was about simulating the Thoilan Web. I thought the Helllbore was as close as you could get to that, but several people said they didn't want cool models with the same weapons.

Your mod ideas come from a passion for SFB and for OP. That combination will produce a good Mod I think.

There have always been two different thought patterns with regard to EAW and OP; the SFB thoughts and the Star Trek thoughts. It was a passion for that board game that brought us the entire SFC series, and without Star Trek the board game would never have happened, at least not in the way we know it.

FireSoul · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2003, 09:55:16 pm »

a GAW shiplist?
.. interesting idea, except I have my hands full already. Heck, Strafer and I expect R10 and J2 to arrive within days, and we'll have a few hundred ship entries to add to the shiplist. 1 SSD entered correctly usually takes around 10-15 minutes, to give you an idea of how much work was done already, and how much more will be applied.

I'll have to pass the puck to someone else.

-- Luc

Chris Jones · « **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2003, 10:08:47 pm »

Perhaps this Multi-Era Mod idea could turn into GAW for OP?

SFB-TOS-TMP-TNG-Post Voyager all in one shiplist..

SFB and TOS would be Early Era
TMP is Mid Era
TNG - Late
Advanced - Post Voyager

With Tholians, Andromedans, Ferengi, The Maquis, etc.........

SghnDubh · « **Reply #21 on:** June 29, 2003, 11:40:16 pm »

This is one of those "BFO's" ---blinding flash of the obvious--that has serious merit. Will the stardates have to slow down, or will it be acceptable to take a Constitution into battle against a NegVar?

Chris Jones · « **Reply #22 on:** June 30, 2003, 05:58:09 am »

There's a certain fun factor here. That could a story of a skewed time line in which the NeghVar goes back in time. Perhaps several Constitutions vs. a NeghVar - or perhaps all of the ships over time that were named Enterprise in one scenario. For me anything like this is acceptable. In Advanced era the entire shiplist will be available.

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 30, 2003, 07:27:19 am »

KF, I for one would find Andros modded under the current game very pale when compared to their SFB brethren. The foundation of tactics vs them is something that we cannot re-create without proper PA panels. Displacement I could live without, but not those magic panels.

"Never fire at an Andromaden, if you can't cause more damage than he can dissipate. All you'll do is give him more power to kill you with."

FireSoul · « **Reply #27 on:** June 30, 2003, 09:42:30 am »

you know.. I thought of a way that could simulate the PA panels via scripting.. but I wouldn't be able to detect the hemisphere of the andro being hit. Also, it wouldn't be able to handle EPTs and HBs well. .. any suggestions for the facing problem?

-- Luc

jdmckinney · « **Reply #29 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:03:26 am »

SFCX is definitely going to do an Operation Unity campaign on OP D2 in the near future. Andromedans and Tholians will be in it, and Castrin is working on the Tholians using PlasE instead of some webs. I've tested his first couple of ships out with the disruptor/snare combination, and they seem balanced and fun. Andros can approximate PAs in one way without scripting -- using extra batteries and APR to allow them to have significant shield reinforcement on very light shielding. When the reinforcement and base shields are down, the Andro is vulnerable until the shield regens.

Still, it would be a lot more interesting to have some scripts that have DisDev and PA effects built-in.

FireSoul · « **Reply #30 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:25:13 am »

I don't think I'll have time for any scripting for a good while..
.. I suggest that someone else picks up on the andro scripting idea.

so.. assuming a 360 degree PA panel, with 66% total capacity. (good idea)

- script mOnDamage for andro to first go through PA panel calculations. If panels are full, then proceed as normal damage. (Can this be done, BTW? Can the andro be made invulnerable for as long as panels are up?) Don't forget to script degradation.

- Give Androship droneracks, but a dronecontrol of *0*. The droneracks each represent a PA panel. At the destruction of a rack, the script should distribute the stored power and allocate extra damage if there's overflow. (can that be done?)

- another question: how would one simulate the power usage by a PA panel set on normal levels? .. what about high levels? The ship would have no shields, so no power would be spent there. Reduction of power from APRs/warp themselves?

- satellite ship transport emulation would be possible through scripting. A message could appear saying "A massive transporter signal is occuring. A small combat ship has been beamed into space." No recovery should appear unless the satship is assumed to be fully repaired before relaunch. Maybe carrier operations could be done here.

- anything else to add? The disdev can't be scripted unless the ship object is first destroyed, and a new object is created at a different location. That means it would be created straight from the shiplist and thus would be a new, different, and prestine ship. .. however if there's gotta be something in the storyline about the disdev, that could be arraged in the distance, previous to a fight.

so.. can scripters help out in filling the blanks here?

-- Luc

jdmckinney · « **Reply #31 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:52:03 am »

One possible scripted DisDev effect would be to have an AI Andro, fully loaded and ready for combat, displace itself from across the map to the player's spawn location before the player had enough time to charge everything. It would give an AI Andro a free shot, and make a few captains wet their uniforms.

FireSoul · « **Reply #32 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:54:47 am »

heh .. you forget the max range for a disdev..

12 is it, for an andro itself?

FireSoul · « **Reply #34 on:** June 30, 2003, 12:09:01 pm »

Additional thoughts:

1- PA Module: Can do. Add it to equations in script. Make script decide when to dump it in space... .. and maybe even reacquire it if handy.
2- Temporal Elevator: no can do. Can't make weapons just stop in space.

3- Maulers: uhh.. .. that's a hard one, because the panels are hooked to the mauler itself. A script doesn't know which specific weapon was fired, so can't increase the damage caused based on contents of panel. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Another idea would be to control the maximum number of batteries based on batteries on the ship, and charged panels. Unfortunately, I don't think a rise in number of batteries would make them charged. (The ship would have the total of both batteries and panel's power as batteries in shiplist and would start with some damage to that system when created.)

BTW,
Additional damage: tShipInfo::mDamageRandomInternals( int numHits ) --- additional damage doable.

Tumulorum Fossor · « **Reply #39 on:** June 30, 2003, 08:20:46 pm »

My general comments, for what it's worth:

FireSoul: I agree with NOT making the OP+ shiplist overly ambitious. Better to keep it focussed and done well rather than expand out to unsupported races and do half-a$$ed versions of them (due to the limitations of the SFC2OP engine). Now, if someone ELSE comes up with a way to translate the Tholian specific weapons and the Andromedan specific weapons, consistent with SFB style, then I think it would be reasonable to revise the scope of the OP+ shiplist to incorporate those races. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. So keeping the shiplist up-to-date, bug-free, and as balanced as possible given SFCOP's limitations with the currently available races is ENOUGH work, thank you very much.

ChrisJones: The MultiEra Mod is a GREAT idea!
The "Early=TOS/SFB; Middle=Movies; Late=TNG; Advanced=Everything else" makes incredible sense. But since it is cutting across ParamountFilm/ParamountTelevision/ComputerGames/SFB/IndyModeller sources, I think we agree that it is beyond the scope of FireSoul's semi-official OP+ patch, so I don't think it should formally be part of that mod...
...but I DO think it should be an UNOFFICIAL MOD TO OP+ (preferably okayed by FireSoul).
Why? Lots of reasons:
(1) It'll help galvanize more support for Orion Pirates over EAW (which is the direction the SFC community is headed ANYWAYS, but it'll help accelerate the tranisition).
(2) It'll help galvanize more support for the OP+ shiplist, which is based on the SFB standards which seems to be serving SFC's longevity, so it's good for SFC fans even if they've never played a turn of SFB in their lives (vis-a-vis's SFC3's problems and SFC2OP's XShip2 problems when they strayed too far from the SFB path-of-enlightenment

).
(3) There are more ships, MANY more ships, that can accommodate more worthy models (as well as more VARIANTS of the same models).
(4) I assume that for any project to get FireSoul's Unofficial Blessing, it would have to adhere to SFB standards regarding HULL TYPE. In other words, not just ANY model can be assigned to just ANY ship due to rules regarding identical HULL CLASSES, which has implications in the computer game in making actual visual identification of ships more part of the game (am I making sense here?). In other words, I COULD make every drone cruiser in the game use a THOLIAN model, if I wanted, such that regardless of my Tactical Intelligence or Probes or range to enemy ship, I'd be able to identify drone ships immediately. A FireSoul Approved OP+ Shiplist Mod would allow for variation in the models but minimize the cheese effect of such a ploy, for people who play by the honor system but still want an interesting selection of eye candy.

So that would put more constraints in place in assigning ship models (paying attention to hull classes and making sure those restrictions as dictated by SFB standards are maintained), but serve to make the game MORE SFB like, while still offering visual variety.

One last thing: I think the race assignments you were suggesting, Chris, were great!

I would ask you to not forget MONSTERS. If we could work in a few of them here or there, that would be cool, too.

Thanks,

-Tumulorum Fossor

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #40 on:** June 30, 2003, 09:45:22 pm »

The idea of using mission specific triggers to get the Andros (or even Tholians) to behave a certain way makes a great deal of sense and was something I had advocated on these forums long before this thread

I think the way to go might be for a self contained mini-mod similar to Centauri Vaugn's Wolf359 TNG mission packs if I understand what I'm reading. Maybe a fan based Andromedan Invsion campaign a la EAW: ISC War of Pacification..

Qapla!

KF

Azel · « **Reply #41 on:** June 30, 2003, 10:34:53 pm »

ATOLM Has Come......

I must agree with the concept of a reaction controlled situations
can it be done???
ATOLM wants...that is if it can be

Chris Jones · « **Reply #42 on:** July 01, 2003, 06:45:23 am »

Firesoul has told me something I never knew, because I was never a server admin or didn't pay attention or whatever, is that the Year Last Available only matters in the D2, not in standard multiplayer or singleplayer. This means that in Advanced era in single or multiplayer, all eras of ships will be available for selection. The beginning year does matter, so obviously you could play, say, mid era and not see TNG stuff, but you would see TOS stuff.

FireSoul · « **Reply #43 on:** July 01, 2003, 06:48:36 am »

That's exactly right.

Sorry I didn't see the MSN msg last night. I figured a PM would be the best way to respond.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #44 on:** July 03, 2003, 09:46:51 am »

This Multi-Era Mod will not have a server, it is for single and multi-player enjoyment. When selecting a race, you'll see the actual races available. Lyran will be Lyran/Dominion, Gorn will be Gorn/Borg, Mirak is Mirak/Cardassian. Hydran is Hydran/Breen. You'll also see Orion/Ferengi, Mirror Federation, Tholian, Maquis, Korgath/Duras, Kazon/Wyldefire, and Aliens. When Selecting a ship to play in any race you'll see the race name. Instead of 'Lyran Ship Statistics' you'll see Lyran/Dominion Ship Statistics. Gorn becomes Gorn/Borg. Mirak becomes Mirak/Cardassian. Hydran becomes Hydran/Breen. Instead of EXIT GAME you'll see 'Exit Multi-Era?' Weapon names will be different. Hellbore is Polaron Torpedo, Fusion is Polaron Beam, Plasma X is Quantum Torpedo. Heavy Photon becomes TNG Photon.

Its the things like that that make the game fun.

Still working...........

Chris Jones · « **Reply #45 on:** July 03, 2003, 01:00:55 pm »

The LDR will be in the TigerHeart slot. Kinda makes sense. The specs will not be totally stock. Some, including a Starbase and the PFs, have been beefed up and are now in advanced era. Always liked those dark Lyran models...

Tholians move to the Camboro slot.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #46 on:** June 27, 2003, 05:59:22 pm »

The recent activity surrounding the upcoming OP Patch got me thinking. Generally, after Orion Pirates was released, I enjoyed it more than EAW. When I was putting together my Multi-Era Mod for EAW (online now on my Frost-Works site) I was thinking that Multi-Era would be a big challenge for OP. Recently I have been helping with testing of the new OP Patch. Although I don't have the SFB Knowledge that the other testers for the patch do, I have been randomly playing the game looking for anything that doesn't look right. To get a different perspective on things, Just today I plugged the EAW Multi-Era shiplist (recently updated by Indigo Falcon on my own Forums), plugged in all the cartel designations from the TNG Mod for OP(using Excel), and tried her out. The theory is this:

Early Era - TOS
Mid Era - TMP
Late Era - TNG
Advanced - Voyager and beyond..

TNG THOLIANS - there's a cloaked one... Obviously this Galaxy is not Canon - this was my Fun ship in EAW Multi-Era.

The shiplist would need to be updated for OP, with OP specific weaponry on some ships, and there are a lot of ???.

What I might do is release what I have and let people play with it. If there is a desire.

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #47 on:** June 27, 2003, 06:44:57 pm »

Chris,

Check your e-mail!

I am using the Tholians in the OrionOrion Cartel slot and having a blast! Tigerheart is too limited a slot for them IMHO; no real capital ships...

I am still waiting for a few KA Tholian kitbashes by Terradyne to be lit and resized by Atheorhaven as well as a few Romulans, V-4 from Anduril, a high ploy Melak and a few of Thulls' Romulans to complete what I've worked on for a TMP mod.

Qapla!

KF

FireSoul · « **Reply #48 on:** June 27, 2003, 08:20:25 pm »

I suggest you hold out and wait for the patch before starting on a mod. You never know what they may fix, after all. With at least 1 issue, now that it's fixed (but I won't talk about it of course), it means mods may be 'broken'.

.. So .. wait and see is my suggestion.

-- Luc

Chris Jones · « **Reply #49 on:** June 27, 2003, 09:43:47 pm »

Yes - all I've done thus far is put a preliminary shiplist together.. in the early stages..
This will not released next week or anything.. This will no doubt last the summer in production. I already have an e-mail offering help.. I have other projects as well.. involving Bridge Commander.. that will compete for my attention..

Kieran Forester · « **Reply #50 on:** June 27, 2003, 11:41:46 pm »

Hey Chris, any progress on compiling the TNG OP mod into a single download? I know it says on your website it'll be over 500 MB, but I've got cable, I can handle it.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #51 on:** June 28, 2003, 02:58:09 am »

Yes this is a possibility - but I'll wait until the next patch is released before I do that, to see how the mod behaves with the patch.

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #53 on:** June 28, 2003, 05:59:31 pm »

More thoughts on what I'm using for a late TMP mod that is non-canon and non-SFB based:

Feds: ALL non-canon ships. A mix of FASA and non-FASA ships but nothing canon! Some great fan ships here too.

Klinks: ALL non-canon ships. A mix of FASA and non-FASA ships but nothing canon! A few Klingon Academy ships here.

Roms: ALL non-canon ships. A mix of FASA and non-FASA ships but nothing canon! Waiting for a Romulan V-4, a Skyhawk and a Melak

Gorn: A mix of Thulls SFB style Gorn and kitbashes/styles from Crymson, P81 and others

Orion: A mix of Thulls SFB style pirates, stock pirates, and Cleeve's two Merchantmen

OrionOrion = Klingon Academy Tholians/KA kitbashes and Hollis J. Wood's TNG Tholians (KA retextured). I want to keep the KA theme alive. They are allied with you most of the time I've been playing as a Fed player.

OrionSyndicate = Mirror Universe Imperials: ALL P81 EXPLORER/ODYSSEY variants and or kitbashed ships along with the D2 Exaclibur as the PCX. I figure the Imperials have more uniformity of design than the hodge-podge of Federation ships we are used to seeing. It works out great as a nice diversion when you fight as the Feds on the Romulan border...

OrionKorgath = A mix of SFB and other non-canon, mostly non FASA Klinks. I figure House Korgath pushes its resources to the maximum and uses older ship models as it does not have the resources of the entire Klingon Empire YET!

Prime Industries = A mix of non-canon, mostly non-FASA Roms. I figure this is really a radical offshoot of the Tal Shiar that, like House Korgath, is a threat to peace even though they don't have the resources of an entire empire behind them.

OrionWyldeFire: There location seems appropriate for TMP style Andromedans/kitbashes by Darkdrone.

I am considering using SkinMan's Leigons as the Beast Raiders cartel but his Sunspider makes an EXCELLENT replacement for the Astrominer....

I really want the new patch and a few more models before I'm ready to do more than this...

Qapla!

KF

Chris Jones · « **Reply #54 on:** June 28, 2003, 11:59:36 pm »

I'm still moving things around..

I'll go through the races and eras here when ready..

KF - that setup looks superb..

Here's my first draft of the races... taken from the aastrings.txt file
Since we are spannng all eras. I'm doubling up a bit. Doing Random skirmishes is quite interesting.

Federation
Klingon
Romulan
Lyran/Dominion (Dominion in Late/Advanced)
Hydran/Breen (Breen in Late/Advanced - some Hydrans remain in Late)
Gorn/Borg -- Gorn in TOS and TMP - Borg all eras (Thanks to Enterprise)
ISC - all eras
Mirak/Cardassian (Cardassian in Late/Advanced eras only)
Orion/Ferengi (These guys just naturally go together. The Ferengi will be avialable only in late and advanced eras.
Korgath/Duras (Two Klingon Houses combining resources)
Mirror Federation (Yes we'll have all eras here as well)
Tholians - all eras
Aliens - all eras
Maquis - fighters/light cruisers - I'm thinking there were renegade Feds in TOS and TMP
Kazon (need something here for early (TOS) and mid (TMP) eras..)
Camboro Pirates (all eras)

Feel free to comment.

FireSoul · « **Reply #55 on:** June 29, 2003, 12:52:11 am »

what about engine doubling and pirates?

FireSoul · « **Reply #59 on:** June 29, 2003, 02:16:01 pm »

It would indeed make it a very different project. Heck, let me be plain and clear..

OP+ contains additional official SFB ships for all the races that are found in SFC:OP. It will contain many fixes to other ships already included in the shiplist. No modification to those races will be made. This shiplist merely an enhanced version of the stock Taldren shiplist which came with the game.

.. There are many other races, such as Andros, Tholians, Wyn Fish Ships, Seltorians, Jindarians, the Frax simulator race, the Canadi'ens, the Megellanic Cloud races, Omega Sector, etc. However, none have a place in the plain shiplist OP+ is. The rules have been established for the given races already, and I follow them.

-- Luc

Chris Jones · « **Reply #61 on:** June 29, 2003, 02:45:33 pm »

KF -

It would have to be your own independent project, starting from the stock OP shiplist, once the new patch is released.
Perhaps your TMP Mod could reflect what you are looking for.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #64 on:** June 29, 2003, 09:53:25 pm »

KF -

I have a theory developed from 3+ years of Modding these games.
This discussion goes back to the SFB fans and the Star Trek fans discussions. There are many who would like to make OP as close to SFB as possible, using new models and getting the weapons/specs as close as possible to SFB given what OP has. That is the theory I share actually, seeing as I am still hosting an OP mod that used several ships from Fleetdock13. Having never played that board game this would get me close to the strategies and thought patterns of that game. The people who played SFB passionately as a board game don't really want new models with the same OP weapons.

Remember when I offered to do an SFB mod with Tholians, etc, back when SFC3 was announced? It got lukewarm response so I did not pursue it. SFB fans are passionate about having things exactly, or as close to exact as possible. The main question was about simulating the Thoilan Web. I thought the Helllbore was as close as you could get to that, but several people said they didn't want cool models with the same weapons.

Your mod ideas come from a passion for SFB and for OP. That combination will produce a good Mod I think.

There have always been two different thought patterns with regard to EAW and OP; the SFB thoughts and the Star Trek thoughts. It was a passion for that board game that brought us the entire SFC series, and without Star Trek the board game would never have happened, at least not in the way we know it.

FireSoul · « **Reply #65 on:** June 29, 2003, 09:55:16 pm »

a GAW shiplist?
.. interesting idea, except I have my hands full already. Heck, Strafer and I expect R10 and J2 to arrive within days, and we'll have a few hundred ship entries to add to the shiplist. 1 SSD entered correctly usually takes around 10-15 minutes, to give you an idea of how much work was done already, and how much more will be applied.

I'll have to pass the puck to someone else.

-- Luc

Chris Jones · « **Reply #66 on:** June 29, 2003, 10:08:47 pm »

Perhaps this Multi-Era Mod idea could turn into GAW for OP?

SFB-TOS-TMP-TNG-Post Voyager all in one shiplist..

SFB and TOS would be Early Era
TMP is Mid Era
TNG - Late
Advanced - Post Voyager

With Tholians, Andromedans, Ferengi, The Maquis, etc.........

SghnDubh · « **Reply #67 on:** June 29, 2003, 11:40:16 pm »

This is one of those "BFO's" ---blinding flash of the obvious--that has serious merit. Will the stardates have to slow down, or will it be acceptable to take a Constitution into battle against a NegVar?

Chris Jones · « **Reply #68 on:** June 30, 2003, 05:58:09 am »

There's a certain fun factor here. That could a story of a skewed time line in which the NeghVar goes back in time. Perhaps several Constitutions vs. a NeghVar - or perhaps all of the ships over time that were named Enterprise in one scenario. For me anything like this is acceptable. In Advanced era the entire shiplist will be available.

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #69 on:** June 30, 2003, 07:27:19 am »

KF, I for one would find Andros modded under the current game very pale when compared to their SFB brethren. The foundation of tactics vs them is something that we cannot re-create without proper PA panels. Displacement I could live without, but not those magic panels.

"Never fire at an Andromaden, if you can't cause more damage than he can dissipate. All you'll do is give him more power to kill you with."

FireSoul · « **Reply #73 on:** June 30, 2003, 09:42:30 am »

you know.. I thought of a way that could simulate the PA panels via scripting.. but I wouldn't be able to detect the hemisphere of the andro being hit. Also, it wouldn't be able to handle EPTs and HBs well. .. any suggestions for the facing problem?

-- Luc

jdmckinney · « **Reply #75 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:03:26 am »

SFCX is definitely going to do an Operation Unity campaign on OP D2 in the near future. Andromedans and Tholians will be in it, and Castrin is working on the Tholians using PlasE instead of some webs. I've tested his first couple of ships out with the disruptor/snare combination, and they seem balanced and fun. Andros can approximate PAs in one way without scripting -- using extra batteries and APR to allow them to have significant shield reinforcement on very light shielding. When the reinforcement and base shields are down, the Andro is vulnerable until the shield regens.

Still, it would be a lot more interesting to have some scripts that have DisDev and PA effects built-in.

FireSoul · « **Reply #76 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:25:13 am »

I don't think I'll have time for any scripting for a good while..
.. I suggest that someone else picks up on the andro scripting idea.

so.. assuming a 360 degree PA panel, with 66% total capacity. (good idea)

- script mOnDamage for andro to first go through PA panel calculations. If panels are full, then proceed as normal damage. (Can this be done, BTW? Can the andro be made invulnerable for as long as panels are up?) Don't forget to script degradation.

- Give Androship droneracks, but a dronecontrol of *0*. The droneracks each represent a PA panel. At the destruction of a rack, the script should distribute the stored power and allocate extra damage if there's overflow. (can that be done?)

- another question: how would one simulate the power usage by a PA panel set on normal levels? .. what about high levels? The ship would have no shields, so no power would be spent there. Reduction of power from APRs/warp themselves?

- satellite ship transport emulation would be possible through scripting. A message could appear saying "A massive transporter signal is occuring. A small combat ship has been beamed into space." No recovery should appear unless the satship is assumed to be fully repaired before relaunch. Maybe carrier operations could be done here.

- anything else to add? The disdev can't be scripted unless the ship object is first destroyed, and a new object is created at a different location. That means it would be created straight from the shiplist and thus would be a new, different, and prestine ship. .. however if there's gotta be something in the storyline about the disdev, that could be arraged in the distance, previous to a fight.

so.. can scripters help out in filling the blanks here?

-- Luc

jdmckinney · « **Reply #77 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:52:03 am »

One possible scripted DisDev effect would be to have an AI Andro, fully loaded and ready for combat, displace itself from across the map to the player's spawn location before the player had enough time to charge everything. It would give an AI Andro a free shot, and make a few captains wet their uniforms.

FireSoul · « **Reply #78 on:** June 30, 2003, 11:54:47 am »

heh .. you forget the max range for a disdev..

12 is it, for an andro itself?

FireSoul · « **Reply #80 on:** June 30, 2003, 12:09:01 pm »

Additional thoughts:

1- PA Module: Can do. Add it to equations in script. Make script decide when to dump it in space... .. and maybe even reacquire it if handy.
2- Temporal Elevator: no can do. Can't make weapons just stop in space.

3- Maulers: uhh.. .. that's a hard one, because the panels are hooked to the mauler itself. A script doesn't know which specific weapon was fired, so can't increase the damage caused based on contents of panel. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Another idea would be to control the maximum number of batteries based on batteries on the ship, and charged panels. Unfortunately, I don't think a rise in number of batteries would make them charged. (The ship would have the total of both batteries and panel's power as batteries in shiplist and would start with some damage to that system when created.)

BTW,
Additional damage: tShipInfo::mDamageRandomInternals( int numHits ) --- additional damage doable.

Tumulorum Fossor · « **Reply #85 on:** June 30, 2003, 08:20:46 pm »

My general comments, for what it's worth:

FireSoul: I agree with NOT making the OP+ shiplist overly ambitious. Better to keep it focussed and done well rather than expand out to unsupported races and do half-a$$ed versions of them (due to the limitations of the SFC2OP engine). Now, if someone ELSE comes up with a way to translate the Tholian specific weapons and the Andromedan specific weapons, consistent with SFB style, then I think it would be reasonable to revise the scope of the OP+ shiplist to incorporate those races. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. So keeping the shiplist up-to-date, bug-free, and as balanced as possible given SFCOP's limitations with the currently available races is ENOUGH work, thank you very much.

ChrisJones: The MultiEra Mod is a GREAT idea!
The "Early=TOS/SFB; Middle=Movies; Late=TNG; Advanced=Everything else" makes incredible sense. But since it is cutting across ParamountFilm/ParamountTelevision/ComputerGames/SFB/IndyModeller sources, I think we agree that it is beyond the scope of FireSoul's semi-official OP+ patch, so I don't think it should formally be part of that mod...
...but I DO think it should be an UNOFFICIAL MOD TO OP+ (preferably okayed by FireSoul).
Why? Lots of reasons:
(1) It'll help galvanize more support for Orion Pirates over EAW (which is the direction the SFC community is headed ANYWAYS, but it'll help accelerate the tranisition).
(2) It'll help galvanize more support for the OP+ shiplist, which is based on the SFB standards which seems to be serving SFC's longevity, so it's good for SFC fans even if they've never played a turn of SFB in their lives (vis-a-vis's SFC3's problems and SFC2OP's XShip2 problems when they strayed too far from the SFB path-of-enlightenment

).
(3) There are more ships, MANY more ships, that can accommodate more worthy models (as well as more VARIANTS of the same models).
(4) I assume that for any project to get FireSoul's Unofficial Blessing, it would have to adhere to SFB standards regarding HULL TYPE. In other words, not just ANY model can be assigned to just ANY ship due to rules regarding identical HULL CLASSES, which has implications in the computer game in making actual visual identification of ships more part of the game (am I making sense here?). In other words, I COULD make every drone cruiser in the game use a THOLIAN model, if I wanted, such that regardless of my Tactical Intelligence or Probes or range to enemy ship, I'd be able to identify drone ships immediately. A FireSoul Approved OP+ Shiplist Mod would allow for variation in the models but minimize the cheese effect of such a ploy, for people who play by the honor system but still want an interesting selection of eye candy.

So that would put more constraints in place in assigning ship models (paying attention to hull classes and making sure those restrictions as dictated by SFB standards are maintained), but serve to make the game MORE SFB like, while still offering visual variety.

One last thing: I think the race assignments you were suggesting, Chris, were great!

I would ask you to not forget MONSTERS. If we could work in a few of them here or there, that would be cool, too.

Thanks,

-Tumulorum Fossor

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #86 on:** June 30, 2003, 09:45:22 pm »

The idea of using mission specific triggers to get the Andros (or even Tholians) to behave a certain way makes a great deal of sense and was something I had advocated on these forums long before this thread

I think the way to go might be for a self contained mini-mod similar to Centauri Vaugn's Wolf359 TNG mission packs if I understand what I'm reading. Maybe a fan based Andromedan Invsion campaign a la EAW: ISC War of Pacification..

Qapla!

KF

Azel · « **Reply #87 on:** June 30, 2003, 10:34:53 pm »

ATOLM Has Come......

I must agree with the concept of a reaction controlled situations
can it be done???
ATOLM wants...that is if it can be

Chris Jones · « **Reply #88 on:** July 01, 2003, 06:45:23 am »

Firesoul has told me something I never knew, because I was never a server admin or didn't pay attention or whatever, is that the Year Last Available only matters in the D2, not in standard multiplayer or singleplayer. This means that in Advanced era in single or multiplayer, all eras of ships will be available for selection. The beginning year does matter, so obviously you could play, say, mid era and not see TNG stuff, but you would see TOS stuff.

FireSoul · « **Reply #89 on:** July 01, 2003, 06:48:36 am »

That's exactly right.

Sorry I didn't see the MSN msg last night. I figured a PM would be the best way to respond.

Chris Jones · « **Reply #90 on:** July 03, 2003, 09:46:51 am »

This Multi-Era Mod will not have a server, it is for single and multi-player enjoyment. When selecting a race, you'll see the actual races available. Lyran will be Lyran/Dominion, Gorn will be Gorn/Borg, Mirak is Mirak/Cardassian. Hydran is Hydran/Breen. You'll also see Orion/Ferengi, Mirror Federation, Tholian, Maquis, Korgath/Duras, Kazon/Wyldefire, and Aliens. When Selecting a ship to play in any race you'll see the race name. Instead of 'Lyran Ship Statistics' you'll see Lyran/Dominion Ship Statistics. Gorn becomes Gorn/Borg. Mirak becomes Mirak/Cardassian. Hydran becomes Hydran/Breen. Instead of EXIT GAME you'll see 'Exit Multi-Era?' Weapon names will be different. Hellbore is Polaron Torpedo, Fusion is Polaron Beam, Plasma X is Quantum Torpedo. Heavy Photon becomes TNG Photon.

Its the things like that that make the game fun.

Still working...........

Chris Jones · « **Reply #91 on:** July 03, 2003, 01:00:55 pm »

The LDR will be in the TigerHeart slot. Kinda makes sense. The specs will not be totally stock. Some, including a Starbase and the PFs, have been beefed up and are now in advanced era. Always liked those dark Lyran models...

Tholians move to the Camboro slot.

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