Topic: SFC Future/GZ

[Mainwaring]

On an entirely flipped side of the coin, I bought SFC3 because it *wasn't* SFB. And I can think of a fair number of others who did. Of course, all I continue to play it for is TNZ, which is just a thoroughly awesome mod an community. If not for that... well. But to me, SFB has never felt like a real trek game. Things... just don't feel right. SFC3 isn't quite entirely there, either, but it's close enough to count, especially with the DW and TNZ mods to plug some gaps.

My only comment in response to your comments, Nanner, at least at the moment, is that I have some issues with power management (hotkey slider memory sets would be killer), but Let's not confuse fine detail control with quality. Can you *really* juggle that many sliders in the thick of combat? How far can you split your attention? When does micro-managing your ship take over from playing the game? the way i see it, what SFC3 has in that regard is right where it should be-- enough detail that you can juggle the power to your liking on the fly, but also little enough that you don't spend most of your time doing it, which means that gameplay doesn't bog down.

Now, if only it was just a *little* more mod-able and we could get a real patch out of it.

[jimmi7769]

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On an entirely flipped side of the coin, I bought SFC3 because it *wasn't* SFB. And I can think of a fair number of others who did. Of course, all I continue to play it for is TNZ, which is just a thoroughly awesome mod an community. If not for that... well. But to me, SFB has never felt like a real trek game. Things... just don't feel right. SFC3 isn't quite entirely there, either, but it's close enough to count, especially with the DW and TNZ mods to plug some gaps.

My only comment in response to your comments, Nanner, at least at the moment, is that I have some issues with power management (hotkey slider memory sets would be killer), but Let's not confuse fine detail control with quality. Can you *really* juggle that many sliders in the thick of combat? How far can you split your attention? When does micro-managing your ship take over from playing the game? the way i see it, what SFC3 has in that regard is right where it should be-- enough detail that you can juggle the power to your liking on the fly, but also little enough that you don't spend most of your time doing it, which means that gameplay doesn't bog down.

Now, if only it was just a *little* more mod-able and we could get a real patch out of it.  

And this attitude is entirely fine but, how many games out there don't use the SFB rules???? and how many do???  Us SFB nerds like to have something we enjoy as well.  I enjoy plenty of games without SFB rules.  Freelancer is one I play a lot, no SFB in there.  

But, for those of us that do like SFB when SFC came out touting that it was using SFB as a base we were all very excited about it.  I know it was the first game I ever pre ordered off the internet.  The next was SFC2.  I bought 3 and I did enjoy playing it and the dom wars and TNZ modsand now that SG3 is over I might play some more if I can figure out what I have to download.  

[NannerSlug]

one other thing i forgot to post would be adding in detail to the hard points.. instead of simply piling all the mass into a single generalization - each hard point would have its own mass restriction. this would really add detail to the ship  - in addition to taking care of some of the odd-ball whacked out designs.

regarding power management: i just want full control of my ship.

[Fire_Ant]

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bah.

I'll say once more: I bought SFC for the SFB content. I never bought SFC3.

-- Luc  

Same here.  I grabbed up SFC1 at the same time I was buying my system.  I loved it!  My intro to SFB was actually through FASAs Star Trek Starship Tactical Combat Simulator.  A mouthfull to be sure which I later discovered  was basically a ripoff of SFB.  So I got into SFB but never really found anyone who wanted to learn the basic rules for some reason. LOL  So playing it on the computer was a joy, but it fell so short of what SFB actually was.  When SFC2 came out I snatched it right up and was enamored by how much more of SFB was in it as well as all the improvements.  I had high hopes for SFC3.  I was looking forward to seeing the Andromidans and the Tholians as well as additional systems found in SFB.  When I heard SFC3 was TNG it was a major disappointment.  I knew the SFB world was out the window and the game would be as dissappointing to me as the TV series.  (Bring back DS9 that was real ST)  I'm waiting until I get my new system to get OP and hoping SFC4 will go back to SFB.  If they dont then I dont plan on buying any more ST games.  If you dont like SFB based ST than there are a number of ST games out to suit you.  None of which you will find on my computer.  

[rmahannah]

I also feel that SFC 3 could have been more complete right down to the ship explosion graphics and sounds.  I do like SFC 3 for some of the new features like warping and cloak scan, but I was a little let down when I played it the first time.  When it was released, I was really into SFC 2, and that was probably part of the problem.  I miss T-Bombs, and the more intricate ship management found in SFC 1 and 2.  I guess I felt more in command of the ship with more to do, after all a Starship should make you feel that you are busy when flying her!  Anyway, that's my 2 cents.  I am waiting for the "Final" patch for SFC 3 before I download those MODS everyone is talking about, but I am looking forward to it!!!    

[jimmi7769]

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I also feel that SFC 3 could have been more complete right down to the ship explosion graphics and sounds.  I do like SFC 3 for some of the new features like warping and cloak scan, but I was a little let down when I played it the first time.  When it was released, I was really into SFC 2, and that was probably part of the problem.  I miss T-Bombs, and the more intricate ship management found in SFC 1 and 2.  I guess I felt more in command of the ship with more to do, after all a Starship should make you feel that you are busy when flying her!  Anyway, that's my 2 cents.  I am waiting for the "Final" patch for SFC 3 before I download those MODS everyone is talking about, but I am looking forward to it!!!      

Don't wait, download the mods now.  They really change the game for the better

Also, you may be waiting for a loooonnnngggg time.

[Sethan]

I own SFC, SFC2, and OP.  I will buy a copy of SFC3 to support Taldren as soon as I have a regular job again, but it will never leave shrinkwrap - I simply have no interest in the game.

Like Firesoul, I bought SFC for the SFB content.

SFC3 went away from its roots, and away from what many of the SFC fans wanted.  Taldren had to make the game someone would pay them to make.  Activision wanted a simpler TNG based version of SFC, and that is what they got.

SFC2 has great staying power because it is a great game, despite the remaining bugs.  I expect it to be played long after SFC3 is forgotten.  I just wish someone would finance GaW while it is still possible to do.

[SPQR Renegade001]

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My only comment in response to your comments, Nanner, at least at the moment, is that I have some issues with power management (hotkey slider memory sets would be killer), but Let's not confuse fine detail control with quality. Can you *really* juggle that many sliders in the thick of combat? How far can you split your attention? When does micro-managing your ship take over from playing the game? the way i see it, what SFC3 has in that regard is right where it should be-- enough detail that you can juggle the power to your liking on the fly, but also little enough that you don't spend most of your time doing it, which means that gameplay doesn't bog down.

I think the level of control and effect Nanner is talking about, would give some performance advantage to a player who choose to micro-manage his ship, at the cost of a bit of tactical awareness. The player who chooses to manage his power closely, is going eek the last bit of performance out of his ship, but in doing so might not be completly aware of the battle running around him. A player who can manage his power and keep his situational awareness high is going to be truely leathal when compared to a player who lets his ship run itself or one who manages at the cost of battle.

As for bogging gameplay... Taking the time to manage power doesn't bog gameplay, the game continues wether or not you choose to pay attention to it.  

[Kieran Forester]

Nanner, in response to what you said above about Chris Jones' mods never being used in a server, I can give you a simple reason: The download is frickin' huge. Each of his major mods are over 100 MB with the first installment - and the updates he adds afterwards jack it up even more. The OP TNG mod alone, with all the updates, is over 500 MB. 56k'ers would probably spend as much time downloading the thing as they would playing on the server.

And also, what you said about D2 mod servers is not entirely true - Day of the Eagle was a mod server, and we've been having servers with modded shiplists(but no actual new models) for a long time.

[Lepton1]

I haven't read the whole thread but here are my remarks.  SFC3 is not SFC2.  Turning it into SFC2 is not the answer since that cannot be done nor is Taldren likely to put out a new SFC title.  They have pretty much stated that.

What SFC3 needs is the adoption of a standard mod to reinvigorate the players.  I would suggest the TNZ mod or some synthesis of existing mods.  The TNZ players are fanatical such that they are willing to donate money to upkeep and update their server. I don't think they are particularly fanatical people, but I do think the mod is very good.  More ships, more weapons, more races.  That's what SFC3 is missing and mods can provide that.

[grave]

this is just my thoughts on this... i feel that if any one from talgren really visited these fourms and went through the posts befor makeing the game sfc3 then they would have realised that even though we were all screaming "were is SFC3! we have been wateing forever!" that most of us would have perfered that they had taken the additional time to FINISH the game befor reliceing it. its easy to tell that the had planed on more races from the files with race names including things like species 8472 and what not. its my feeling that ther dont give a rats A@# about us the gamer. I also feel verry betrayed by them for not reliceing a stable game that they knew would not be up to par. If taldren had taken the time to finish the game prior to reliceing it with out saying to them selves "oh people wont care its not ready they will wate for a patch fr as long as it takes us to do it"and had finished the game I feel it COULD have a good game.                                                                                                                                                                                                    now that thats said. i also wanted to say that i have ALL the mods for SFC3 that i have seen come out on this fourm. i have added a few together like the TNZ mod wich i love and the MIRANDA sp? mod. like its ben posted i use dial up( ya i know it sucks but cant get dsl or brodband were im at) to download them all. and it HAS taken a verry long time to get them all. but the mods have added some flair and playability to the game that was verry lacking when it was shiped. BUt even with all of the mods ive tryed and played (and ive been playing sence SFC1 first came out) id rather play SFC1 then fight with an unfinishd porly made and non suported SFC3...
well thats my 2 cents worth thanks for listening to me ramble  

[Whiplash]

They need to make a GOOD game, and it does not HAVE TO BE SFB based. It is possible for a game to be good that is not based on SFB.

However, SFB is a proven, balanced system that had DECADES of playtesting and thought behind it. Any new game they hack together and spend less than a YEAR playtesting is just not going to stack up. SFC3 is a perfect example of that.

Games that keep you coming back have a certain DEPTH of play. That requires some complexity, and you can't playtest that quickly.

W.

[NannerSlug]

sfc3 is closer than you think. many like it. sure, there need to be some things added and changed.. but its darned close.. and there are many, many other games which did just fine in the time of development - ranging from total annihilation to rainbow 6 and battlefield 1942.

sfb did provide a compelling base for the game.. but it is not the end all to be all.

if you have tried the tnz or dw mods, i think you will find that many of the gaps have been filled.. not that its complete, because there are a number of things which could have been added to the detail column (fya, lya, restrictions on ship yard, t-bombs, different arcs, individual hard point mass restrictions, individualized power managment) which would add more to it.. but it has a lot more potential and game play then you are giving it credit for.

[FireSoul]

Although I agree that many like SFC3 and that it's a game on its own, I don't agree on the following statement:

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sfb did provide a compelling base for the game.. but it is not the end all to be all.

For me it is. It's why I bought the games in the first place. I would not have touched the titles otherwise.

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

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 For me it is. It's why I bought the games in the first place. I would not have touched the titles otherwise.
 

Same here. (big surprise I know....LOL)

The SFC series are the only Star Trek computer games I have ever owned (although I'm thinking about picking up the Armada and Elite Force games now).

For those who dismiss SFB please understand that I already have a shelf FULL of games "not" based on SFB.  I want  just one of these game series to be based on SFB......and stay that way.  

[jimmi7769]

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 For me it is. It's why I bought the games in the first place. I would not have touched the titles otherwise.
 

Same here. (big surprise I know....LOL)

The SFC series are the only Star Trek computer games I have ever owned (although I'm thinking about picking up the Armada and Elite Force games now).

For those who dismiss SFB please understand that I already have a shelf FULL of games "not" based on SFB.  I want  just one of these game series to be based on SFB......and stay that way.  

Hyper's right, I've got loads of Video games not based on SFB, and when I was younger I played many paper and pencil games that were not SFB, but it was nice to have some games in both areas that were(are) based on my favorite game system.

Heck, I spend more time playing Freelancer right now anyway and the only things trek in there are a few models and no SFB at all.

I'd try TNZ or Dom Wars more but there was never any room on the server of TNZ and no one playing on Dom Wars so I lost interest.

[Jim]

Absolutely.  SFC is a great game because it is based on SFB.  Not Trek.  SFB could have changed all the names of the races and weapons and it would have still been the best space wargame ever made.  And ADB could have had full control over all the content.

I think that someone *should* make SFC:GAW based entirely on SFB and add all the missing stuff back in.  Change ALL the races to eliminate any mention of Trek so that you get rid of the licensing mess.  The game doesn't need Trek as a crutch to survive.

And as to good Trek games... to date there aren't any.  SFC is NOT a Trek game.  It just happened to have called the original races names from Star Trek.  I bet Steve Cole wishes he had made up his own races now.

Anyway...  here's to hoping that someday the entire SFB rulebook gets computerized into a great game.  If they make it, it will sell.

Jim  

[NannerSlug]

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 The SFC series are the only Star Trek computer games I have ever owned (although I'm thinking about picking up the Armada and Elite Force games now).

For those who dismiss SFB please understand that I already have a shelf FULL of games "not" based on SFB.  I want  just one of these game series to be based on SFB......and stay that way.  

thats great hyper.. and im not saying that in a belittling fashion (or to firesoul for that matter).. but what makes that so special beyond your personal perferences.. e.g. what is the purpose of the game.. is it to produce a good trek game which with the best possible rule set or replicate sfb as best as possible within the real time setting. therein lies the issue for my self. from my understanding and discussions with many folk - the purpose was to produce as strong a trek game as possible using the best rule set. in sfc1/2 that was sfb (even then, there are more differences with the sfb rule set than similarities - but it does use that as a basis). that said, then the game is not held to what i would refere to as the bonds of a particular rule set - but is opened up to interpretation and development.

i mean, what make's anyone's vision of a particular rule set better over someone else's. some would say performance (which i can agree with), some might say the over all experience. it simply varies and there again lies another issue to be dealt with.

for me, as someone who plays a HUGE ammount of games (probably more than i should  - and i need to spend more time with my family, really) - i see it as a simple matter of preferences in rule sets. nothing more, nothing less. it is about the performance of the game and what the individual likes. i see nothing special about the sfb rule set - only that it was a good foundation for the sfc series to start from (and it was a good start) - but that it can be improved on, modified or simply taken out in the end. after all, the foundation of the rule set is not even developed for a computer. (16% range breaks, etc) that is my opinion, though - and people on both sides of the issue should realize that.

again, it all goes back to who really are the core players of sfc and what is the goal of the game?

[FireSoul]

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again, it all goes back to who really are the core players of sfc and what is the goal of the game?

I'm a SFC player because I'm a SFB player. I don't care if I'm not part of the core players of SFC. The goal of the game is to make money.

[Scipio_66]

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what is the purpose of the game.. is it to produce a good trek game which with the best possible rule set or replicate sfb as best as possible within the real time setting.

That's the same thing!  There is no need to discuss distinctions without a difference!

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 <In SFC 1 and 2> there are more differences with the sfb rule set than similarities - but it does use that as a basis).

Rubbish!  Pure and simple rubbish!  (without meaning to be insulting).  There are a *few* departures here and there, but the game was and remains amazingly faithful.

That being said, I bought SFC 1, 2, and OP (multiple copies of each) because they were based upon SFB.  No other reason.   If they hadn't been I'd have left them sitting on the shelf right next to lots of other games and (eventually) right next to SFC3.

I didn't buy SFC3 because it:

1) Wasn't based upon SFB (I bought OP because it was, even though I wasn't jazzed about it)
2) Wasn't SFC3.  (It was TNG 1, or some such.)
3) Was boring to play.  (to me)

I did try out a friends copy.  The game felt like a demo, so I'm not sure you can say no demo was made.  

Good game or bad game, SFC3 (sic)  had a core audience it walked away from.  That's never a good thing for a sequel.

-S'Cipio