Topic: SFC Future/GZ

[Kieran Forester]

Nanner, it's been said multiple times that the G-racks could not be coded in the way they were in SFB- thus the quick and dirty fix that was in SFC2, i.e. the addition of an AMD6 and treating the G-rack as a standard A-rack. No, it's not 'hardcore' SFB, but it's a good deal closer than you may think. The game was primarily aimed at Trek fans, as I could tell from the early ads for SFC1 in magazines and such, but as it turns out, its 'core' audience ended up with a majority of SFB fans. I myself bought SFC1 because it was Trek, but I bought SFC2 and OP because it was SFB-based Trek. Heck, I enjoyed my experience of the SFB universe so much just from my experiences with SFC that I bought Federation and Empire and all its supplements. Face it, Nanner, even with your known and clearly evident pro-SFC3 bias, you have to realize that the best computer games have been SFC1 and 2 - the ones, coincedentally, the ones based on SFB. Even your beloved SFC3 keeps some of the SFB elements, watered down though they may be.

And finally, I didn't say people weren't playing SFC3, I said that its overall sales numbers weren't as good as its predecessors. There's a difference. You'd never be able to tell that maybe, say, only 5,000 copies of a game were sold if all those 5,000 played online.

[Magnum357]

Just for the record, I play SFC1, SFC OP, and SFC3 contantly.  I'm a long time SFB fan (which is part of the reason why I like making SFB ships) but I'm also a Star Trek fan.  I don't know why their is such infighting between the SFC3 crowd and the SFB/SFC crowd.  I try to consider both games rule sets as different time lines.  SFC3 is fun to play, but only online from my experience.  The Computer AI is not really complex at all and you only get a good challenge when playing others online.  SFC OP and SFC1 are great even if you just play the AI, but a killer experience if you play head to head.  Just so many tactics and strategies that require you to really know your ships and race tactics well.  

I do like SFc3 though.  The rule system in that game needs more refinement I think (need more weapon systems and more race balancing and more races in my opinioin), but I would have to say that it is by far the best Star Trek ship combat game out their.  SFB/SFC1,2,OP have this already covered with years of proven tested game experience with SFB.  

What I would like to see Taldren (or whoever do) is make both a SFB style game and a TNG type game jointly.  They already have the game engines and rule systems in place for both games, all they need to do is refine and develope the TNG game more and add more stuff from the SFB universe in the SFB style game.  You could have two games, one called SFC: Galaxies at War (based on SFB rules) and another game called SFC: The Next Generation (based on SFC3 rules only refined and developed).  

[Komodo]

Magnum- you've got it right  

I really doubt we see anything more SFC ever again though.

I played 'em all too, and enjoyed each version for their own merit. Well. I actually think I wasted $ on OP LOL. That's just me though- many had fun with it and still do. I just wish I could partake in the excellent SFC3 mods I've heard so much about! I'd really like to see what all the hubbub is about. Unfortunatley I just don't have the resources- I'm still surprised I could even run the standard game with little problem. I'm not spending another cent on this machine though! Better to save it for a new one (one can hope lol)

Mog- I'm surprised at you. Being a member of a shrinking membership, I'd expected better behaviour by now. Going incognito was a double bonus which we had some fun with. FUN Too many have too long of memories, and much too little forgiveness. I'm pretty sure of all the crap you guys heaped on Paul, did you see any coming back your way? It's one thing to offer an opinion (regardless of knowing how it will be taken), quite another to punish someone for it. Bad form.

And that's what this place is all about- offering opinions- isn't it?  

[Whiplash]

Ya know, thats true. I have Dominion Wars and Klingon Academy if I want a Star Trek game NOT based on SFB. And lots of other space games too. But the SFC series is the only games based on SFB, a game I consider to be largely superior to any other Trek combat game invented thus far. When SFC left that unique niche, it lost all the uniqueness I really cared about. And got dumbed down so bad that I have now been playing SFC2 for a longer time than I played SFC3 even if you count only the time I've played since SFC3 was released.

I think time has shown which game has had the greater popularity and staying power, a fact which I repeatedly screamed from the time the concepts were announced, and which has sadly come true. I think it comes from not understanding the game dynamics that made SFC/SFC so absorbing in the first place. Tactical variety. Slow speed means lots of power for shields and overloads, but to contend with seeking weapons, you must go fast. Those kinds of tactical pressures were mostly eliminated from SFC3 and thats why it is an inferior game. Too bad game developers don't listen to people with 15 years of experience in SFB (not only me, but plenty of others), and who have the silly notion that they can do a better game practically overnight.

W.

[Tulwar]

I see the future of SFC very clearly.  SFC TNG through fan base for this series into chaos.  I doubt that any new game in this series will be produced for a very long time.  Eventually, someone from Tadren, or ADB will pick up the game again and pony up the capital to rewrite it.  In the near future, I only see declining intrist, as Activision realizes that they can't just dump thier content into somebody else's franchise without cosequenses.  I see SFC EAW in about 10 to 20 years.  I'll pre-order it, even if I'm so old, I have to pay my grandson to man the helm!  

[Tulwar]

Whoops!  I meant to say, "I see SFC GAW" in about 10 to 20 years."  In any case, I expect it to be very well polished, in a very attractive package!  I waited 15 years for SCF1, what's another 15, now that I know it's technicly and economicly possible?  

[Davey E]

Got SFC1 , 2 , OP and 3

SFC3 is not on my hard drive anymore, as i simply find it boring and limited tactically
Not a patch on SFC2 / OP

Those simulations will be long played after SFC3 is dead

Now give us SFC GAW or else    

[VelvetAcidChrist]

well i ve to agree with baron although i only had tng mod and just plaed sfc3 hardcore for like 2 months.
i still have it installed but dont play it anymore its just out of intrest till they change some serious stuff like baron requested.
 

[Tulwar]

Reguarldless of whether or not you like SFC3, Activision's acquisition of the TOS/ TMP license killed SFC.  Without the license, an improved version of SFC2, excepting OP, became impossible.  The release of SFC3 split the existing community into two factions, SFB and anything-but-SFB.  Since SFC was concieved as SFB-on-the-computer, I have little simpathy for the latter faction.  I found Activision's heavy-handed control over development and content rather rude.

Although SFC3 attracts people that may not be interested in SFB, SFB is at the heart of the game.  Those longing for a more complete version of SFB will not buy another version of SFC until it goes back to the SFB ruleset.

I don't think that the hatemail generated by SFB enthusists harmed SFC3.  Buying out the competion and destroying their product line is an unfortunate but common buisness practice.  This is the essence of "dog eat dog."  Could Activision have believed that their content was so much superior to the origional as to win over Taldren's existing customers?  Such arrogance is not unheard of.  I doubt they lost money on this venture, but it is possible that Activision had unrealistic expectations from initial sales and connections with other products.

Activision's unusual lawsuit against Viacom and the FTC investigation of Activision reveal a company in trouble.  Only the depth of the trouble is in doubt.

The only hope for the future of SFC is that Activision is in big trouble.  I think the only reason they published SFC3 is because Taldren could deliver a higher quality product than Activision was capable of at a very modest price.  If Activision has to sell off rights and licenses and/or realise that they must develope products to meet every concievable nicht of the ST franchise, then there is hope for SFC.  If Taldren can either convince Activision to give them free reign with SFC (scoff, scoff), or Activision sells the necessary rights to a willing publisher, only then will another SFC game be created.  Life would come back to SFC.

These are some pretty big "if's," but there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.  Freight train?    

[CptCastrin]

Quote:
 c) sfc3 has recieved the short end of just about every stick possible.

Minor point but when a new version of SFC is released while there is still no patch for SFC3 THEN you can say this with more accuracy. Those of us who love OP watched while the older game (EaW) continued to be patched AND a newer game came out! All while the game was totally broken AND people were constantly picking it apart. Now that is really the short end of the stick.

SFC3 will be fixed much sooner than SFC:OP was and that is a good thing. If you include the great mods out there for it and the vibrant community supporting it, SFC3 has it far better than OP did in the same time frame. You guys (that play SFC3) should feel lucky and not worry about anything other than when the patch will be out.

   

[Sethan]

Quote:
Nanner, it's been said multiple times that the G-racks could not be coded in the way they were in SFB- thus the quick and dirty fix that was in SFC2, i.e. the addition of an AMD6 and treating the G-rack as a standard A-rack. No, it's not 'hardcore' SFB, but it's a good deal closer than you may think.

Heh.  I came up with an idea to make the G-rack even closer to SFB.  Talked it over with Magnumman, and he agreed it was possible, easy to do, and closer to SFB.  I pitched it to the players on the Dynaverse 2 experiences board - as a possibility - to get some reaction, and got flamed into the next century by a variety of Fed players.

[TheSatyr]

Can we please give this "EAW is better then OP,SFC3 is better than whatever...this game sucks no that game sucks" dead horse a decent burial?.

It doesn't matter...each game has it's own group of followers. Fighting over it just comes accross as childish behavior...and no doubt scares some of the newbies off of the boards.

Do I have a favorite? Yeah...SFC1. Simply because that's what got the whole franchise rolling.

What would I like to see if there ever was a future SFC product? Yeah....An all eras game. That will be the only thing that will make everybody happy. As long as Andros,Tholians,Cardassians and the Dominion were all added in as well. Will it ever happen? I seriously doubt it...but then stranger things have happened.

 

[3rdRedBaronX]

I'm posting a thread I started on the SFC2 forum regarding SFC3.  I'm hoping the developers will take heart to what's written here since SFC3 died in April on the GamerZ league and barely has any following on Gamespy.  I'm hoping they can take some lessons learned and make a new and better game. SFC2 has a better following now which speaks volumes to the quality of the gameplay vs SFC3.  The ship designs that were there were great, but the diversity is lacking.  The Dominion mod by Pelican for instance has a lot of diversity though some of the models have deficiencies in their weapon hardpoints.  Real TNG ships included were Ambassador Class, Nova, Steamrunner, Miranda, Constellation, Oberth, Prometheus, New Romulan Warbird, Scimitar, Kling Models from SFC2, as well as other races.

After being in first place for the initial and only SFC3 cycle on GZ, playing the most games and trying Dyna3 and the Dominion Mod by Pelican, I can say that I'm thoroughly experienced with sfc3, and gave it a chance.  I went so far as to vehemenantly support SFC2 on the forums since I too did not want SFC3 to die out.  Problem is SFC2 is a better game and SFC3 simply has too many problems to be patched properly.  The models in the Dominion Mod and diversity there gave it some fun, but gameplay is simply too watered down.  Warping until your very last hull point is never a problem, 1 minor hit at warp can kill an officer and take you out of the game, power management isn't nearly as complex and you can't seperate a good player from a bad one, weapon diversity isn't great, race diversity sucks, ship models (not counting dom mod) are too few and don't represent TNG well, point spread is confusing and difficult to calculate (100,000 bpv anyone?), no eras.

My suggestions for making a better game in TNG era would be:

A)  Make Warp dependent on power and seperate status of warp engines with a longer buildup to go to warp as well as a cooling down period before you can go to warp again.
B) Officers should not play a part in regular MP games (dyna is a different story) and if they do play a part, it should be VERY hard to injure them.
C) More race diversity such as: Fed, Kling, Rom, Borg, Dominion, Cardassians, Ferengi, Breen
D) Special race abilities such as: Borg (Crew assimilation, Nano Virus), Fed (Deflector dish one time weapon/but disables ability to warp), Kling (Elite Commandos), Dominion (Gem Hadar fighters etc), Rom (Tal'Shiar Operatives beam over to jam radar making it harder for you to find them when they uncloak and interfere with you finding teammates at long distances...and more
E) Return the phaser capacitor
F) Return ECM/ECCM
G) Diversify weapons as seen in shows such as biological weapons that can kill or weaken crew making it more susceptible for marines to board, dampening field (temporarily incapacitates enemy crew/think of HET failure)....etc
H) Return Power Mangement to include all aspects of ship.  

[Dogmatix!]

I haven't experienced SFC3 nearly as deepy as you did, but I note that much of my initial perceptions after the first three months are borne out by your experiences over twice that time.


I think your ideas for improvement are very good and would most certainly improve SFC3 in my eyes.  I'm of the opinion that nothing more for SFC3 will be forthcoming, though.  At this point, I'm sure the actual public release of the current beta patch will be met with some raised eyebrows and gasps of, "At long last..."  


I'm definitely thankful we have a relatively healthy SFC2 community to fall back on.  While I never left it, I was glad it was still there during and after my D3 experiments...heheh.

[Mr. Hypergol]

If SFC3 had kept it's rule set closer to the Star Fleet Battles based rules that SFC2 used it would have been a much better game.  Just because we moved into the TNG era doesn't mean the rule set could not have been "derived" or "evolved" into this era adequately.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the data, weapons charts, UI, etc. should have been such that it could be logically traced back to the SFC2 system....not something totally and arbitrarily new.  For example, if a phaser 1 from SFC2 does X points of damage at a certain range, then a SFC3 phaser 10's damage should be more at that same range in a manner that makes sense with respect to the Phaser 1....as if the technology had progressed.

There's no reason that SFC3's TNG era could not still have been based on an SFB derived system.  This guy did a great job of it and is a good example of what I had in mind for SFC3 before I saw what we got:

http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/index.html

http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/rules/tng05.txt  

[Cleaven]

I would hope that there is a list somewhere of things to do to make a greater version of SFC3, but I fear SFC3 was a one shot affair, at least for the moment. The improvements I would like to see are in the Dynaverse itself.
 

[NannerSlug]

i completely disagree hyper. its not about making a rule set closer to this or to that - its simply about developing a good game. not all people fall into the categories posted here. there are plenty of other games that do not use the sfb rule set that are successful.

could it have been better? sure - but i think some people are leaving out the positive things about the game.. like the fact that there are mods out there like TNZ and the dominion war ALREADY. SG3 is just now (after how many years) making a mod main stream. Christ Jones developed his mod -but i never saw any campaigns based on it or used.

coming from my perspective - i think that if you go back to the wish list which was posted here a while back sorta pokes out what people might want.. some people actually prefere 3 over 2. i personally can go either way (actually its 3 or OP)..

to me, sfc3 sorta does go skimpy the ships.. TNZ and the dominion wars fill it out nicely.. that is a huge problem that needs correcting. more ships, more variants, more models.

it also need more mp scripts for dynaverse. a huge thank you to pelican for developing scripts. like wise, a huge thank you to korah and pelican for pushing sfc3 into the direction it needed to go.

i also miss t-bombs.. where are those furry little creatures we love so much?

regarding weapons - the weapons are different and have differing flavors.. the main issue is that, well,are people taking the time to explore them and use them. some are, some are not. there are racial differences. could the racial differences be expanded on and exaggerated to become more "noticable"? you bet - but they are there.

if you do an extensive study on the differences in the style of play of the two games one of the other things you might notice is that you can repair the hull in 2, but you cannot in 3. that should be fixed. another one is that in 2 there is always some way to counter your opponents move. in sfc3 - there are a few things which you really cannot effectively counter. one is the tachyon beam (imo, that thing should be toned down or there should be some sort of counter to it) and the other is the tractor. i think that the differing degrees of tractoring ships is not a good idea.. i think that having an older style tractor beam with power is a better idea.. and that you can put how ever much energy you want to into the tractors.. (the bigger the warp core your ship has, the more power you can put into things) this leads me to energy managment.

sorry, but i love energy managment in sfc3 sooo much more.. i can fire underloads.. i can fire over loads.. i can move power from shields to weapons to movement.. and what ever i put into it, is what is in it. that said, sure - you can expand on it.. instead of having just 3 sliders.. you should be able to have more sliders to control more of your individual system power.. say like tractor beam or shields, then i can do so..

likewise, i can see a break down in weapons power.. this means i can have a slider on each individual hard point to overload or underload it.. but again, there is on ly so much power allocated to the weapon systems which you can take from. (how can you click over load on all your photons and have the power set to underload - so instead of instant overload/norm, you have a slider to determine how much power goes into said weapon system).

another item concerning weapons systems is the improvment of arcs. at first, i didnt think it was that big of deal.. but i think that the arcs need improving quite a bit.. or at least more arcs need added to the game to give modders the ability to do so or create thier own ships using different arcs.

dynaverse wise, i could see a few strategic aspects put it.. one would be the first and last year available. if this single function was given - we could have what would be my personal dream.. a TOS to TNG trek game.. you could have ships released like in sfc2 by the year instead of all at once.. another server side option would be the ability to disable the refit. by giving the server admin the ability to disable the refit option, you can then create different variants of a ship and have greater strategic control over a serious campaign.

finally, i would like to see some sort of sdk come out to where if someone wanted to make a full sfb conversion (for those who are still in eaw/op land - and that is their thing, dont get me wrong - it is solely a preferece).. this way we can all be playing a single game again as a pose to swapping back and forth.

over all, i think sfc3 is a wonderful game.. but it comes just shy of really cracking things wide open. if there had more ships and more scripts, it would be a different matter. then again, heck, if there had been a demo for the game, it would be different.. (would you buy a game without downloading the demo? i never have- i want to see it before i spend my hard earned cash on it) the same can be said about the patch situation. no matter who says what, there are many people who are waiting for that first official patch.. and its been so long that it might have really hurt things.

do i expect another sfc? probably not. at least not for a while. maybe im wrong. hope so.

[Mr. Hypergol]

 

Quote:
  i completely disagree hyper.

Like a hungry bass darting out of the grass............Nanner strikes!!!!

Nanner have I told you lately how tired I am of your constant and mindless support of Star Fleet Battles........NOT!!!

At least we both want our T-bombs back.

[FireSoul]

bah.

I'll say once more: I bought SFC for the SFB content. I never bought SFC3.

-- Luc

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
bah.

I'll say once more: I bought SFC for the SFB content. I never bought SFC3.

-- Luc  

You Go boy!!!