Topic: SFC Future/GZ (Read 15604 times)

3rdRedBaronX · « **on:** June 25, 2003, 06:08:17 pm »

I'm posting a thread I started on the SFC2 forum regarding SFC3. I'm hoping the developers will take heart to what's written here since SFC3 died in April on the GamerZ league and barely has any following on Gamespy. I'm hoping they can take some lessons learned and make a new and better game. SFC2 has a better following now which speaks volumes to the quality of the gameplay vs SFC3. The ship designs that were there were great, but the diversity is lacking. The Dominion mod by Pelican for instance has a lot of diversity though some of the models have deficiencies in their weapon hardpoints. Real TNG ships included were Ambassador Class, Nova, Steamrunner, Miranda, Constellation, Oberth, Prometheus, New Romulan Warbird, Scimitar, Kling Models from SFC2, as well as other races.

After being in first place for the initial and only SFC3 cycle on GZ, playing the most games and trying Dyna3 and the Dominion Mod by Pelican, I can say that I'm thoroughly experienced with sfc3, and gave it a chance. I went so far as to vehemenantly support SFC2 on the forums since I too did not want SFC3 to die out. Problem is SFC2 is a better game and SFC3 simply has too many problems to be patched properly. The models in the Dominion Mod and diversity there gave it some fun, but gameplay is simply too watered down. Warping until your very last hull point is never a problem, 1 minor hit at warp can kill an officer and take you out of the game, power management isn't nearly as complex and you can't seperate a good player from a bad one, weapon diversity isn't great, race diversity sucks, ship models (not counting dom mod) are too few and don't represent TNG well, point spread is confusing and difficult to calculate (100,000 bpv anyone?), no eras.

My suggestions for making a better game in TNG era would be:

A) Make Warp dependent on power and seperate status of warp engines with a longer buildup to go to warp as well as a cooling down period before you can go to warp again.
B) Officers should not play a part in regular MP games (dyna is a different story) and if they do play a part, it should be VERY hard to injure them.
C) More race diversity such as: Fed, Kling, Rom, Borg, Dominion, Cardassians, Ferengi, Breen
D) Special race abilities such as: Borg (Crew assimilation, Nano Virus), Fed (Deflector dish one time weapon/but disables ability to warp), Kling (Elite Commandos), Dominion (Gem Hadar fighters etc), Rom (Tal'Shiar Operatives beam over to jam radar making it harder for you to find them when they uncloak and interfere with you finding teammates at long distances...and more
E) Return the phaser capacitor
F) Return ECM/ECCM
G) Diversify weapons as seen in shows such as biological weapons that can kill or weaken crew making it more susceptible for marines to board, dampening field (temporarily incapacitates enemy crew/think of HET failure)....etc
H) Return Power Mangement to include all aspects of ship.

Dogmatix! · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2003, 06:21:01 pm »

I haven't experienced SFC3 nearly as deepy as you did, but I note that much of my initial perceptions after the first three months are borne out by your experiences over twice that time.

I think your ideas for improvement are very good and would most certainly improve SFC3 in my eyes. I'm of the opinion that nothing more for SFC3 will be forthcoming, though. At this point, I'm sure the actual public release of the current beta patch will be met with some raised eyebrows and gasps of, "At long last..."

I'm definitely thankful we have a relatively healthy SFC2 community to fall back on. While I never left it, I was glad it was still there during and after my D3 experiments...heheh.

Mr. Hypergol · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2003, 07:59:09 pm »

If SFC3 had kept it's rule set closer to the Star Fleet Battles based rules that SFC2 used it would have been a much better game. Just because we moved into the TNG era doesn't mean the rule set could not have been "derived" or "evolved" into this era adequately.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the data, weapons charts, UI, etc. should have been such that it could be logically traced back to the SFC2 system....not something totally and arbitrarily new. For example, if a phaser 1 from SFC2 does X points of damage at a certain range, then a SFC3 phaser 10's damage should be more at that same range in a manner that makes sense with respect to the Phaser 1....as if the technology had progressed.

There's no reason that SFC3's TNG era could not still have been based on an SFB derived system. This guy did a great job of it and is a good example of what I had in mind for SFC3 before I saw what we got:

http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/index.html

http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/rules/tng05.txt

Cleaven · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2003, 08:22:17 pm »

I would hope that there is a list somewhere of things to do to make a greater version of SFC3, but I fear SFC3 was a one shot affair, at least for the moment. The improvements I would like to see are in the Dynaverse itself.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2003, 09:30:01 pm »

i completely disagree hyper. its not about making a rule set closer to this or to that - its simply about developing a good game. not all people fall into the categories posted here. there are plenty of other games that do not use the sfb rule set that are successful.

could it have been better? sure - but i think some people are leaving out the positive things about the game.. like the fact that there are mods out there like TNZ and the dominion war ALREADY. SG3 is just now (after how many years) making a mod main stream. Christ Jones developed his mod -but i never saw any campaigns based on it or used.

coming from my perspective - i think that if you go back to the wish list which was posted here a while back sorta pokes out what people might want.. some people actually prefere 3 over 2. i personally can go either way (actually its 3 or OP)..

to me, sfc3 sorta does go skimpy the ships.. TNZ and the dominion wars fill it out nicely.. that is a huge problem that needs correcting. more ships, more variants, more models.

it also need more mp scripts for dynaverse. a huge thank you to pelican for developing scripts. like wise, a huge thank you to korah and pelican for pushing sfc3 into the direction it needed to go.

i also miss t-bombs.. where are those furry little creatures we love so much?

regarding weapons - the weapons are different and have differing flavors.. the main issue is that, well,are people taking the time to explore them and use them. some are, some are not. there are racial differences. could the racial differences be expanded on and exaggerated to become more "noticable"? you bet - but they are there.

if you do an extensive study on the differences in the style of play of the two games one of the other things you might notice is that you can repair the hull in 2, but you cannot in 3. that should be fixed. another one is that in 2 there is always some way to counter your opponents move. in sfc3 - there are a few things which you really cannot effectively counter. one is the tachyon beam (imo, that thing should be toned down or there should be some sort of counter to it) and the other is the tractor. i think that the differing degrees of tractoring ships is not a good idea.. i think that having an older style tractor beam with power is a better idea.. and that you can put how ever much energy you want to into the tractors.. (the bigger the warp core your ship has, the more power you can put into things) this leads me to energy managment.

sorry, but i love energy managment in sfc3 sooo much more.. i can fire underloads.. i can fire over loads.. i can move power from shields to weapons to movement.. and what ever i put into it, is what is in it. that said, sure - you can expand on it.. instead of having just 3 sliders.. you should be able to have more sliders to control more of your individual system power.. say like tractor beam or shields, then i can do so..

likewise, i can see a break down in weapons power.. this means i can have a slider on each individual hard point to overload or underload it.. but again, there is on ly so much power allocated to the weapon systems which you can take from. (how can you click over load on all your photons and have the power set to underload - so instead of instant overload/norm, you have a slider to determine how much power goes into said weapon system).

another item concerning weapons systems is the improvment of arcs. at first, i didnt think it was that big of deal.. but i think that the arcs need improving quite a bit.. or at least more arcs need added to the game to give modders the ability to do so or create thier own ships using different arcs.

dynaverse wise, i could see a few strategic aspects put it.. one would be the first and last year available. if this single function was given - we could have what would be my personal dream.. a TOS to TNG trek game.. you could have ships released like in sfc2 by the year instead of all at once.. another server side option would be the ability to disable the refit. by giving the server admin the ability to disable the refit option, you can then create different variants of a ship and have greater strategic control over a serious campaign.

finally, i would like to see some sort of sdk come out to where if someone wanted to make a full sfb conversion (for those who are still in eaw/op land - and that is their thing, dont get me wrong - it is solely a preferece).. this way we can all be playing a single game again as a pose to swapping back and forth.

over all, i think sfc3 is a wonderful game.. but it comes just shy of really cracking things wide open. if there had more ships and more scripts, it would be a different matter. then again, heck, if there had been a demo for the game, it would be different.. (would you buy a game without downloading the demo? i never have- i want to see it before i spend my hard earned cash on it) the same can be said about the patch situation. no matter who says what, there are many people who are waiting for that first official patch.. and its been so long that it might have really hurt things.

do i expect another sfc? probably not. at least not for a while. maybe im wrong. hope so.

Mr. Hypergol · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2003, 09:45:32 pm »

Quote:

i completely disagree hyper.

Like a hungry bass darting out of the grass............Nanner strikes!!!!

Nanner have I told you lately how tired I am of your constant and mindless support of Star Fleet Battles........NOT!!!

At least we both want our T-bombs back.

FireSoul · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2003, 09:53:58 pm »

bah.

I'll say once more: I bought SFC for the SFB content. I never bought SFC3.

-- Luc

Mainwaring · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2003, 02:49:22 am »

On an entirely flipped side of the coin, I bought SFC3 because it *wasn't* SFB. And I can think of a fair number of others who did. Of course, all I continue to play it for is TNZ, which is just a thoroughly awesome mod an community. If not for that... well. But to me, SFB has never felt like a real trek game. Things... just don't feel right. SFC3 isn't quite entirely there, either, but it's close enough to count, especially with the DW and TNZ mods to plug some gaps.

My only comment in response to your comments, Nanner, at least at the moment, is that I have some issues with power management (hotkey slider memory sets would be killer), but Let's not confuse fine detail control with quality. Can you *really* juggle that many sliders in the thick of combat? How far can you split your attention? When does micro-managing your ship take over from playing the game? the way i see it, what SFC3 has in that regard is right where it should be-- enough detail that you can juggle the power to your liking on the fly, but also little enough that you don't spend most of your time doing it, which means that gameplay doesn't bog down.

Now, if only it was just a *little* more mod-able and we could get a real patch out of it.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2003, 09:32:57 am »

one other thing i forgot to post would be adding in detail to the hard points.. instead of simply piling all the mass into a single generalization - each hard point would have its own mass restriction. this would really add detail to the ship - in addition to taking care of some of the odd-ball whacked out designs.

regarding power management: i just want full control of my ship.

rmahannah · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2003, 11:30:01 pm »

I also feel that SFC 3 could have been more complete right down to the ship explosion graphics and sounds. I do like SFC 3 for some of the new features like warping and cloak scan, but I was a little let down when I played it the first time. When it was released, I was really into SFC 2, and that was probably part of the problem. I miss T-Bombs, and the more intricate ship management found in SFC 1 and 2. I guess I felt more in command of the ship with more to do, after all a Starship should make you feel that you are busy when flying her! Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I am waiting for the "Final" patch for SFC 3 before I download those MODS everyone is talking about, but I am looking forward to it!!!

Sethan · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2003, 08:41:02 am »

I own SFC, SFC2, and OP. I will buy a copy of SFC3 to support Taldren as soon as I have a regular job again, but it will never leave shrinkwrap - I simply have no interest in the game.

Like Firesoul, I bought SFC for the SFB content.

SFC3 went away from its roots, and away from what many of the SFC fans wanted. Taldren had to make the game someone would pay them to make. Activision wanted a simpler TNG based version of SFC, and that is what they got.

SFC2 has great staying power because it is a great game, despite the remaining bugs. I expect it to be played long after SFC3 is forgotten. I just wish someone would finance GaW while it is still possible to do.

Kieran Forester · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2003, 02:09:19 pm »

Nanner, in response to what you said above about Chris Jones' mods never being used in a server, I can give you a simple reason: The download is frickin' huge.

Each of his major mods are over 100 MB with the first installment - and the updates he adds afterwards jack it up even more. The OP TNG mod alone, with all the updates, is over 500 MB. 56k'ers would probably spend as much time downloading the thing as they would playing on the server.

And also, what you said about D2 mod servers is not entirely true - Day of the Eagle was a mod server, and we've been having servers with modded shiplists(but no actual new models) for a long time.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2003, 01:00:06 pm »

I haven't read the whole thread but here are my remarks. SFC3 is not SFC2. Turning it into SFC2 is not the answer since that cannot be done nor is Taldren likely to put out a new SFC title. They have pretty much stated that.

What SFC3 needs is the adoption of a standard mod to reinvigorate the players. I would suggest the TNZ mod or some synthesis of existing mods. The TNZ players are fanatical such that they are willing to donate money to upkeep and update their server. I don't think they are particularly fanatical people, but I do think the mod is very good. More ships, more weapons, more races. That's what SFC3 is missing and mods can provide that.

grave · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2003, 02:35:52 pm »

this is just my thoughts on this... i feel that if any one from talgren really visited these fourms and went through the posts befor makeing the game sfc3 then they would have realised that even though we were all screaming "were is SFC3! we have been wateing forever!" that most of us would have perfered that they had taken the additional time to FINISH the game befor reliceing it. its easy to tell that the had planed on more races from the files with race names including things like species 8472 and what not. its my feeling that ther dont give a rats A@# about us the gamer. I also feel verry betrayed by them for not reliceing a stable game that they knew would not be up to par. If taldren had taken the time to finish the game prior to reliceing it with out saying to them selves "oh people wont care its not ready they will wate for a patch fr as long as it takes us to do it"and had finished the game I feel it COULD have a good game. now that thats said. i also wanted to say that i have ALL the mods for SFC3 that i have seen come out on this fourm. i have added a few together like the TNZ mod wich i love and the MIRANDA sp? mod. like its ben posted i use dial up( ya i know it sucks but cant get dsl or brodband were im at) to download them all. and it HAS taken a verry long time to get them all. but the mods have added some flair and playability to the game that was verry lacking when it was shiped. BUt even with all of the mods ive tryed and played (and ive been playing sence SFC1 first came out) id rather play SFC1 then fight with an unfinishd porly made and non suported SFC3...
well thats my 2 cents worth thanks for listening to me ramble

Whiplash · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2003, 08:59:28 pm »

They need to make a GOOD game, and it does not HAVE TO BE SFB based. It is possible for a game to be good that is not based on SFB.

However, SFB is a proven, balanced system that had DECADES of playtesting and thought behind it. Any new game they hack together and spend less than a YEAR playtesting is just not going to stack up. SFC3 is a perfect example of that.

Games that keep you coming back have a certain DEPTH of play. That requires some complexity, and you can't playtest that quickly.

W.

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Topic: SFC Future/GZ (Read 15604 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

3rdRedBaronX

Dogmatix!

Mr. Hypergol

Cleaven

NannerSlug

Mr. Hypergol

FireSoul

jimmi7769

Mainwaring

jimmi7769

NannerSlug

Fire_Ant

rmahannah

jimmi7769

Sethan

SPQR Renegade001

Kieran Forester

Lepton1

grave

Whiplash

Topic: SFC Future/GZ (Read 15604 times)